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Thread: Quads. Why or why not?

  1. #41
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    It's a sport first and foremost so yes push the envelope. Bring on the quints!!! However, keep the PCS honest and not just as a means for holding skaters up or pushing them down. I say have separate panels to judge tech and PCS.

  2. #42
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    Looking at the state of men’s senior skating, I question whether ladies doing quads is really something to be excited about, even if I agree with the “it’s a sport” argument and can appreciate a beautifully executed quad. The sad reality is that you have to watch a lot of splatfests in the mens discipline these days. Either the current men are just that bad (I find this hard to believe, as my favorite skaters come from that discipline), or the adult human body simply cannot jump quads and especially quad combinations on a consistent basis. Maybe Sasha, Anna and the ladies they will inspire will prove everyone wrong, but it is hard to be optimistic in a post-Sochi/post-Worlds 2018 timeline. It is also hard to be optimistic that Eteri’s girls of all people will somehow be an exception to this rule after seeing Pitkeev and now Erokhov sidelined by injury, and Medvedeva and Zagitova struggling with triple jumps. But I’m happy to be proven wrong

    I also think that if this trend continues, then we will see the base values of quads dropping even more and/or penalties for falls increasing. Casual viewers do not want to watch splatfests. By the time the quad revolution happens for the ladies, if it does indeed happen, it might not be worth it.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by el henry View Post
    Where is all this “no one questioned anyone else doing quads” whataboutism coming from, in the face of at least one person who has been raising questions about young folks and quads for four years?

    No one reads my posts, I’m crushed
    I did! It's hard to argue with people who I agree with...

    To be realistic, the number of boys or girls doing quads at all, or the number of men having done serious numbers of them for a reasonable amount of time, is still hardly even a mad scientist's sample (and there's Javi also, remember, he seems to be relatively okay but even though he's older we still need to wait a while).

    I would have to say even an educated guess would have to wait until Boyang and Nathan (not to say Shoma, who's a bit older) and the others of the last/current generation start reaching 22-24 and see how their knees, ankles and general accident history are going (scarily, that's around the next Olympics, not a good time for scientific research on the main contenders but oh well...)

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipsydoodle View Post
    For all the comments I see about how light and slender Trusova and Scheberkova are and how this facilitates their jumps, I see no mention of how problematic that lightness and slenderness might be in and of itself. Their bodies might have issues falling apart far before they get hip, knee, and ankle injuries, and far before they "hit" puberty.
    I can't stand to watch either of them—quads or no quads—because I fear for their lightness and slenderness.

    Frankly, I don't like the aesthetic, either. Curves have a way of making lines more interesting, IMO.
    you must hate mens competitions then, no curves at all and im guessing you don't like watching any of the the more slender senior ladies or any of the juniors who are only attempting triples?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    ^^^
    I see people talk only about Trusova and Shcherbakova quads here, so... And i was the one criticizing men doing quads, because to me a most of their competitions were a mess
    I think this was directed to me?
    The OP mentioned Trusova and Shcherbakova, so I think that's why the conversation flowed that way.

    But the conversation was about health, I believe. I'm no fan of splatfests, but that wasn't what I was referring to when I talked about my own posts. I have been concerned about the health effects of too many quads, too soon, too often, for young men and for young ladies. For some time now. As in Nathan Chen as a junior.....

    So the "whataboutism" don't ring true to me, because posters on this Board have been talking about it, forever. Or at least I have

    And, to repeat myself, because I love repeating myself, quads and jumps are not the only sign of sport, progress, pushing boundaries, bad Latin for faster higher stronger, and every other argument I've ever seen. But I won't convince anyone who feels differently, and they won't convince me. I'm just waving the banner to say that those who feel like me are not alone

  6. #46
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    Being slender and with narrow hips doesn’t just help facilitate Anna and Sasha’s quads - this physique also facilitates mens’ quads - like Nathan, Yuzuru, and Boyang.

    I wouldn’t really compare Anna and Sasha to Lada Sartakova - whose 32 fouettés and performances like black swan pas de deux (kinda strange and inappropriate for a kid) really felt like a gimmick/trick. They are pioneers of 4Lz for ladies and are doing what hasn’t been done before!

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    A lot of double standards here as always. Nobody questioned Gogolev's health for doing so many quads. Nobody questioned Kihira doing 3A, which is half a revolution less (or even lesser than that if you're counting the prerotation) from those girls who are doing quads, plus she is doing 3 of them now
    We have, for YEARS. In terms of men doing quads, during the whole quad craze of 204 to 2018.
    Questions were asked Orser abt Stephen Gogolev on safety, effects on young boys.

    As for Rika Kihira, as stated before, she is doing a TRIPLE. Yeah 3.5 revolutions, a jump can be 3.9 revolutions, its still a triple. + its just ONE type of jump. The quad discussion is abt all the quads except 4A.

    As far as I recall, people didnt debate abt health effects Mao Asada doing her 3As, just the 3A that is. Mao could still do 3A at age 26 I think. I.e. Data already available.
    The 3A discussion should have been waaayyyyyy back in 1988 when Midori Ito did the 1st one, 30 long years ago.
    No senior lady has successfully landed a quad in competition yet, we are waiting next season.

    Plus, all the male skaters do the 3A, what is there to compare between the men & women ? You are of course most welcome to gather data on the 8 or so women who have done 3A.

    So, discussion that pertains to BOTH male & female skaters currently is quads.
    When Rika successfully lands a 4S or 4T, then we add her to the list. After Japan Nationals, Kaori Sakamoto said she is training the 4T.
    This would make it my 3rd point - no point discussing 3A, the senior ladies are aiming for quads, like the men few years back.

  8. #48
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    Back in time Pluschenko almost killed himself in attempt to learn quads beyond 4T.
    He can walk on his own but has to periodically visit a doctor who checks and fixes the plastic elements in his spine.
    Yet, many of younger guys jump quads with no big problems to their health.

    It's possible that first generation of quad girls will be known as 'pioneers' or 'swansingers' with too short competitive lifespan. Or not...
    But 2nd or 3rd generation will only smile...

    YH recently found himself to be of a medical attention. Sorry for him, but he is a man of 4A now.
    And Dmitriev Jr lands 4A face first in his every competition and still more or less OK. Yes I can imagine how you feel crashing from a quad.

    But the next generation will also know how to crashland with a minimum of negative effect.

    And I'm expecting better skates developed...

  9. #49
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    I would just like to echo the point that it's currently unclear what the long term health effects of quads are on adult men, since the quad revolution began only a little over half a quadrennial ago, and very few men have been jumping 3+ quads in free skates, and none for years and years. So any dismissal of health concerns for any group of skaters is, imo, unwarranted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TallyT View Post
    I did! It's hard to argue with people who I agree with...

    To be realistic, the number of boys or girls doing quads at all, or the number of men having done serious numbers of them for a reasonable amount of time, is still hardly even a mad scientist's sample (and there's Javi also, remember, he seems to be relatively okay but even though he's older we still need to wait a while).

    I would have to say even an educated guess would have to wait until Boyang and Nathan (not to say Shoma, who's a bit older) and the others of the last/current generation start reaching 22-24 and see how their knees, ankles and general accident history are going (scarily, that's around the next Olympics, not a good time for scientific research on the main contenders but oh well...)
    Just comment on Nathan part, first of all, Nathan didn’t start jumping quads at very early age, contrary to lots of misconceptions in this forum. He just learned all 4 types of quad much faster than anybody else after he landed first quad at 15, thanks to the foundation Raf helped him to build.

    2nd of all, he is, in his own words ”de emphasizing” quad this season due to limited training time when at school and focus on other aspects of skating. He didn’t try as many quads at all before GPF, and I guess that is going to the strategy going forward until he takes a break from Yale to concentrate on skating. You won’t see him practice and putting that many quads out there until he competes against Yuzu and Shoma.

    I doubt he would still be in competitive skating after 2022 when he is 22. Afterall, he has his career long planned out with skating being only part of his life, and what is more important, he is listening more to Raf, who has been advocating for the longevity of skating life.

    To me, the only two thing which are worrisome is his training without coach most of time, and if he is going to pick up quad loop

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonita View Post
    Just comment on Nathan part, first of all, Nathan didn’t start jumping quads at very early age, contrary to lots of misconceptions in this forum. He just learned all 4 types of quad much faster than anybody else after he landed first quad at 15, thanks to the foundation Raf helped him to build.

    2nd of all, he is, in his own word ”de emphasizing” quad this season due to limited training time and focus on other aspects of skating. He didn’t try as much quads at all before GPF, and I guess that is going to the strategy going forward. You won’t see him practice and putting that many quads out there until he competes against Yuzu and Shoma.

    I doubt he would still be in competitive skating after 2022 when he is 22. Afterall, he has his career long planned out with skating being only part of his life, and what is more important, he is listening more to Raf, who has been advocating for the longevity of skating life.

    To me, he would be the least to worry about if he is not picking up his quad loop.
    Umm.... I barely mentioned him, why the uber defensiveness? We won't know till they're older, that is what I am trying to say.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TallyT View Post
    Umm.... I barely mentioned him, why the uber defensiveness? We won't know till they're older, that is what I am trying to say.
    I don’t understand why you mention his name in the first place for the above reasons. There are other skaters trying more quads than him or earlier than him. The thread was mainly discussing junior ladies. I won’t mention anybody if I don’t know lots of facts about someone.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonita View Post
    I don’t understand why you mention his name in the first place for the above reason. The thread was mainly discussing junior ladies. I won’t mention anybody if I don’t know lots of facts about someone.
    We were also talking about the men, all of the brilliant quad-heavy top flight of the men 2017-18, and he is one of them yes? I also mentioned Boyang and Shoma (it is a little hard not to when projecting who will be 22-24 then).

    So all or some of them may have accidents or problems in the future, we actually don't know who or why. Yuzuru may be an anomaly (he is in every other way, after all) or Javi and his better health may be.

    I did have this thought however, that a startling number of the elite skaters, when offered Yuzuru's fame, fortune and success but only with Yuzuru's up and down health to go with it... would at the very least seriously consider it and more than a few would take it (Genius is not really sensible, after all, and neither are the very young). So if even Plushy-sized problems are a possibility somewhere in the future but the quads are the only way to win now, no matter what they planned, many of them will keep doing them.

    Same with the little girls.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by TallyT View Post
    We were also talking about the men, all of the brilliant quad-heavy top flight of the men 2017-18, and he is one of them yes? I also mentioned Boyang and Shoma (it is a little hard not to when projecting who will be 22-24 then).

    So all or some of them may have accidents or problems in the future, we actually don't know who or why. Yuzuru may be an anomaly (he is in every other way, after all) or Javi and his better health may be.

    I did have this thought however, that a startling number of the elite skaters, when offered Yuzuru's fame, fortune and success but only with Yuzuru's up and down health to go with it... would at the very least seriously consider it and more than a few would take it (Genius is not really sensible, after all, and neither are the very young). So if even Plushy-sized problems are a possibility somewhere in the future but the quads are the only way to win now, no matter what they planned, many of them will keep doing them.
    Go back to your own post and read the part about Nathan, Boyang, and Shoma. Shoma is actually 2 months younger than Boyang. But I should feel honored that finally Nathan is one of the brilliant skaters in your eyes when discussing about the impact of of quads. Didn’t he “make any whole event crap by winning the gold?”

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonita View Post
    Go back to your own post and read the part about Nathan, Boyang, and Shoma. Shoma is actually 2 months younger than Boyang. But I should feel honored that finally Nathan is one of the brilliant skaters in your eyes when discussing about the impact of of quads.
    Okay, I got the relative ages wrong (the holidays do nothing for my maths) but ????? - again, why the tart defensiveness??? How exactly did I insult him here? I'm genuinely confused and asking. I wasn't even saying they would have problems, I was trying to make the point that to judge the health impact of quads we would have to wait until this group - the first ones after Javi and Yuzu to really go quad heavy - are that age to be able to get an even tiny sample to judge. At the moment, we have no real data either way.

  16. #56
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    I really think it should be up to the athletes to decide if they push for quads or not. The sport is diverse enough to keep the fans entertained. Just let the skaters decide what the limits are for themselves IMO.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by sx98423 View Post
    you must hate mens competitions then, no curves at all
    Says who?

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by TallyT View Post
    I did! It's hard to argue with people who I agree with...

    To be realistic, the number of boys or girls doing quads at all, or the number of men having done serious numbers of them for a reasonable amount of time, is still hardly even a mad scientist's sample (and there's Javi also, remember, he seems to be relatively okay but even though he's older we still need to wait a while).

    I would have to say even an educated guess would have to wait until Boyang and Nathan (not to say Shoma, who's a bit older) and the others of the last/current generation start reaching 22-24 and see how their knees, ankles and general accident history are going (scarily, that's around the next Olympics, not a good time for scientific research on the main contenders but oh well...)
    Are you concerned about Yuzuru and how 4A affected his health ? He was badly injured because of 4Lz, and had to stop jumping it. And he injured himself again with 4lo. I suppose the same thing might happen with his 4lo, he will be forced to ditch it. You seems have problems with girls and boys jumping quads here and there but not with older Yuzuru who are more injury prone and once get injured, it takes him longer time to recover.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by vunhung3001 View Post
    Are you concerned about Yuzuru and how 4A affected his health ? He was badly injured because of 4Lz, and had to stop jumping it. And he injured himself again with 4lo. I suppose the same thing might happen with his 4lo, he will be forced to ditch it.
    Terrified about the 4A. Totally terrified. Somehow, I doubt that is going to stop anyone of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TallyT View Post
    Terrified about the 4A. Totally terrified. Somehow, I doubt that is going to stop anyone of them.
    Well, at least you aren't self conflicted yet. Better have problems and be concerned about every quad jumper rather than focus on specific ones. There are many fake concerns about Yuzuru's health. They wanted him to get injured to be able to say "Yeah I told you so" and the same thing also happened to Eteri girls, Gogolev and quadster like Nathan, Boyang, Shoma...

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