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Thread: Quads. Why or why not?

  1. #61
    Medalist Alexz's Avatar
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    I say 'yes's to quads in FS. Just like we welcomed quads by Plyushchenko and others back in the days. And now it is a casual thing required to win in Men.

    'Yes' to quad jumps in figure skating, just like the 'yes' to Sharai's amazing quad twists and Nagornyy's jaw-dropping triple back somersaults in gymnastics.

    Sport needs to be constantly evolving and should require a daring difficulty to win. Otherwise it is not a sport and will be eventually kicked out the Olympics and replaced with different popular sport. Sport should be difficult and spectacular, and judged fair. Is it too much to ask? If one wants to see nice transitions - go watch Evan Lysacek ice shows.

  2. #62
    I'm under your spell: Ain't nobody's business.... Ic3Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexz View Post
    I say 'yes's to quads in FS. Just like we welcomed quads by Plyushchenko and others back in the days. And now it is a casual thing required to win in Men.

    'Yes' to quad jumps in figure skating, just like the 'yes' to Sharai's amazing quad twists and Nagornyy's jaw-dropping triple back somersaults in gymnastics.

    Sport needs to be constantly evolving and should require a daring difficulty to win. Otherwise it is not a sport and will be eventually kicked out the Olympics and replaced with different popular sport. Sport should be difficult and spectacular, and judged fair. Is it too much to ask? If one wants to see nice transitions - go watch Evan Lysacek ice shows.
    Which would be great if he actually skated ice shows....

  3. #63
    Medalist Alexz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ic3Rabbit View Post
    Which would be great if he actually skated ice shows....
    Exactly, thank you for picking up my irony..

    Where is he now? Who is he? What he has done for sport? Is he a role model? A poster boy for some charity? Is he making the world a better place? Is he voluntaring in anything useful? Is he an inspiration for next generation of figure skaters? Is he doing master-classes? Is he usefully for anybody or anything in FS other than himself? Is he Is he paying it back to the sport and society? How he is helping figure skating to be more popular? Is he coaching kids?

    Rhetorical questions, I know. We still remember the names of all those daring athletes who pushed the boundaries of the sport. We have eponymous elements named after them. In figure skating and in gymnastics. We don't have transition named 'Lysacek', we don't remember any of his transitions at all. But we remember a lot of spectacular quad jumps preformed decade ago. We in awe with spectacular quad lutz by Shcherbakova just recently.

    Hmm.. If you think about it.. 14-year-old junior Anna Shcherbakova can jump higher and better than him. She is just a much better athlete. In current rules she would have beaten him. Blind-folded and single-handedly. :-P

  4. #64
    GS Supporter el henry's Avatar
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    Constantly evolving equals wonderful spins requiring daring and great athleticism, skating that holds one spellbound.

    We remember the name of the greatest men’s skater, IMHO, of all time, Toller Cranston. Why: he pushed boundaries, artistry, skating, melded into one. We remember him.

    And it’s not for the revolutions in the jumps. Meh.

    In 45 years, I won’t be here, but when we look down from that great ice rink in the sky, we’ll see who we remember. And I doubt it will be anyone solely on their revolutions in the air
    Last edited by el henry; 12-27-2018 at 01:54 AM. Reason: add preposition

  5. #65
    I'm under your spell: Ain't nobody's business.... Ic3Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexz View Post
    Exactly, thank you for picking up my irony..

    Where is he now? Who is he? What he has done for sport? Is he a role model? A poster boy for some charity? Is he making the world a better place? Is he voluntaring in anything useful? Is he an inspiration for next generation of figure skaters? Is he doing master-classes? Is he usefully for anybody or anything in FS other than himself? Is he Is he paying it back to the sport and society? How he is helping figure skating to be more popular? Is he coaching kids?

    Rhetorical questions, I know. We still remember the names of all those daring athletes who pushed the boundaries of the sport. We have eponymous elements named after them. In figure skating and in gymnastics. We don't have transition named 'Lysacek', we don't remember any of his transitions at all. But we remember a lot of spectacular quad jumps preformed decade ago. We in awe with spectacular quad lutz by Shcherbakova just recently.

    Hmm.. If you think about it.. 14-year-old junior Anna Shcherbakova can jump higher and better than him. She is just a much better athlete. In current rules she would have beaten him. Blind-folded and single-handedly. :-P
    I get where you are coming from but I have to just state some facts.

    Evan did skate in shows for a bit, charity shows and a few Stars on Ice tours, but the injury to his hip was nagging too much and he stopped period. I have to sympathize with him on the injury front, because when you want to skate so badly, but your body says NO for good well there's not much you can do.

    He has worked with many a charity. Skating in Harlem for years (I believe he's still on the board of that), he was working with the US Consolate (State Dept) promoting sport in other countries, He's also worked with charity for Glaser Pediatric AIDS foundation and the Jimmy Fund.

    Not defending, just wanted to make the above clear, he did give back to the sport and still does.

    Where is he now? He's a consultant for the Vera Wang company in NYC, and was a big part of the design and conception of Nathan Chen's recent costuming and packaging look. He was also inducted into the FS Hall of Fame class of 2016.

  6. #66
    Medalist Alexz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ic3Rabbit View Post
    I get where you are coming from but I have to just state some facts.

    He did skate in shows for a bit, charity shows and a few Stars on Ice tours, but the injury to his hip was nagging too much and he stopped period. I have to sympathize with him on the injury front, because when you want to skate so badly, but your body says NO for good well there's not much you can do.

    He has worked with many a charity. Skating in Harlem for years (I believe he's still on the board of that), he was working with the US Consolate (State Dept) promoting sport in other countries, He's also worked with charity for Glaser Pediatric AIDS foundation and the Jimmy Fund.

    Not defending, just wanted to make the above clear.
    Nah, he still is pretty irrelevant in figure skating. But thanks.

  7. #67
    I'm under your spell: Ain't nobody's business.... Ic3Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexz View Post
    Nah, he still is pretty irrelevant in figure skating. But thanks.
    You posted before my whole post was done. I'm not here to change your mind on that particular skater, but you asked questions in one of your posts and I gave you those answers, we can all move along now.

  8. #68
    “I solemnly swear I’m up to no good” Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by el henry View Post

    45 years, I won’t be here, but when we look down from that great ice rink in the sky, we’ll see who we remember. And I doubt it will be anyone solely on their revolutions in the air
    I don’t think there is a single skater performing quads who is solely “known for quads” or doesn’t offer a range of other notable qualities. That’s a bit of an exaggeration. Even with that said we know Sasha absolutely will be remembered for being the first female skater to land several fully ratified quads. It’s a notable achievement worthy of respect and given a placeholder in the sport’s history books.

    Skaters who offer a cathartic experience for fans will always have a place in the fans hearts though. Whether it’s dazzling athletic feats or ethereal performances or both! That’s part of the balance. I’m not sure why we can’t just let the skaters decide their own boundaries and how they want to attack the sport for themselves. I’m all for diversity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexz View Post
    Hmm.. If you think about it.. 14-year-old junior Anna Shcherbakova can jump higher and better than him. She is just a much better athlete. In current rules she would have beaten him. Blind-folded and single-handedly. :-P
    Not necessary. It may mean Shcherbakova is better trained, better coached, her team accepted risks which paid. No just she's herself is better than X, but much better coached.

    What was done by two great ladies (and even more by their teams) the Free Programs with no doubles. Only 2A is left. This is remarkable.

    Trusova once mentioned she has a sort of a mental blockade toward a front starting jump (3A, you may guess) and cannot make herself even to attempt it. So her coaches suggested to try 4S.
    But Shcherbakova has no such problem.
    And there is a time coming when 3A for ladies will be essential. Quads will follow...

    Also what I forgot to mention. Even if quads bring the current generation of skaters to their martyrdom, it will not stop the next one.
    You may need a time from 2002 to 2018 (or from 1969 to even more outdated year for the next Moon landing) but once landed it will be landed again.

    A quad skater lost-in-action means some mistake happened. Not the very idea is wrong. Here the coaches need to sit and think better. Unfortunate events happen but never stopped daredevils to attempt.

  10. #70
    GS Supporter el henry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    I don’t think there is a single skater performing quads who is solely “known for quads” or doesn’t offer a range of other notable qualities. That’s a very big exaggeration. Even with that said we know Sasha absolutely will be remembered for being the first female skater to land several fully ratified quads. It’s a notable achievement worthy of respect and given a placeholder in the sports history books.

    Skaters who offer a cathartic experience for fans will always have a place in the fans hearts though. Whether it’s dazzling athletics feats or ethereal performances. That’s part of the balance. I’m not sure why we can’t just let the skaters decide their own boundaries and how they want to attack the sport for themselves. I’m all for diversity.
    I’m very glad to hear that; I don’t watch enough of the junior ladies to know. And it seems all many (not you) talk about are jumps.

    And if someone else’s heart sings watching dazzling jumps, that doesn’t bother me; you are right, we all like different things and was should like what we like. As you know, I just don’t like hearing that I don’t understand how important it is for sport to evolve based solely on jumps.

    My only problem with letting skaters decide is the age of the skater. We don’t let 14 year olds drive in the US of A. Even if they’re really good at it and it’s their passion in life. I need to know more about the health risks of training certain jumps in early life. Maybe I’m too cautious, could be. But it’s honestly held caution

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by el henry View Post
    We don’t let 14 year olds drive in the US of A. Even if they’re really good at it and it’s their passion in life. I need to know more about the health risks of training certain jumps in early life. Maybe I’m too cautious, could be. But it’s honestly held caution
    When I attended my military I was informed the consuming alcohol is legal after reaching 21, but this nice machine gun I can have right now.
    You may disallow to drive before 16 or 18 but it may not stop some 14y/o from stealing your car. Which requires some substantial skills.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexz View Post
    Exactly, thank you for picking up my irony..

    Where is he now? Who is he? What he has done for sport? Is he a role model? A poster boy for some charity? Is he making the world a better place? Is he voluntaring in anything useful? Is he an inspiration for next generation of figure skaters? Is he doing master-classes? Is he usefully for anybody or anything in FS other than himself? Is he Is he paying it back to the sport and society? How he is helping figure skating to be more popular? Is he coaching kids?

    Rhetorical questions, I know. We still remember the names of all those daring athletes who pushed the boundaries of the sport. We have eponymous elements named after them. In figure skating and in gymnastics. We don't have transition named 'Lysacek', we don't remember any of his transitions at all. But we remember a lot of spectacular quad jumps preformed decade ago. We in awe with spectacular quad lutz by Shcherbakova just recently.

    Hmm.. If you think about it.. 14-year-old junior Anna Shcherbakova can jump higher and better than him. She is just a much better athlete. In current rules she would have beaten him. Blind-folded and single-handedly. :-P
    How many people remember Goebel? Where is he now?
    How many will remember Kevin Reynolds?
    How many people do you think will remember Jason Brown?

    The reason why people don't remember Evan is that he has a very bland personality on ice and no special quality. Even if he would have put a 4T in his program the public would have forgotten him easily. But how many remember Goebel? His quads hasn't helped him too much either.
    How many remember Kulik for his quad? People remember him for his textbook jumping and his elegant skating, but not particularly for his quads and i cannot remember that he has an element named after him. Did Yuna need a quad to be memorable? what were the element she invented?

    TO be remembered a skater need a special conjuncture: to be the first doing a spectacular element, a special story like Oksana Baiul, a special personality and lasting career like Plushenko, a very special program like Yagudin with Winter and Iulia with her red coat or Jason Brown with the Lord of the dance. Just an oly medal will not bring you everlasting fame. People will remember Trusova, but the coming girls doing quads not so much because quads but if they bring other things on the table.

    And comparing generations which learned different skills is POINTLESS: each generation has pushed the next, none starts from nothing to do harder elements. Naturally that a skater now, even as 20 in world rankings has some skills better and advances than top skaters from 20 years ago.

  13. #73
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    The trouble that I have with the whole "sport" = "jump" equation is that jumping is not really skating. It is more like acrobatics. To me, skating is more about blade-to-ice skills.

    A well-placed and well-executed jump is a beautiful highlight to a program. But at some point we have to ask if the tail is wagging the dog.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by el henry View Post
    Where is all this “no one questioned anyone else doing quads” whataboutism coming from, in the face of at least one person who has been raising questions about young folks and quads for four years?

    No one reads my posts, I’m crushed
    I do! xD You’re right, people have been heavily questioning Orser’s young quad wonder for a while about not only his quads but his technique. Certain fans question every quad for Juniors and 3A for novices.

    But that fact doesn’t support the “everyone hates Eteri” argument being made here I guess lol

    Eteri is definitely criticised more but but she definitely isn’t alone in being criticised and never has been.

  15. #75
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    I don’t think there is a single skater performing quads who is solely “known for quads” or doesn’t offer a range of other notable qualities. ...
    I think that's the whole point right there.

    Kurt Browning gets credit for landing the first ISU ratified quad. But when we think of Browning, we don't think first about quads.

    Alexei Yagudin did quads. Is this what he is remembered for or why he is the runaway leader on our thread for "favorite Russian man" of all time?

    Patrick Chan? Stephane Lambiel?

    (That said, Go Trusova! )
    Last edited by Mathman; 12-27-2018 at 03:52 AM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think that's the whole point right there.
    Kurt Browning gets credit for landing the first ISU ratified quad. But when we think of Browning, we don't think first about quads.
    Alexei Yagudin did quads. Is this what he is remembered for or why he is the runaway leader on our thread for "favorite Russian man" of all time?
    Patrick Chan? Stephane Lambiel?
    (That said, Go Trusova! )
    You may consider Yagudin famous for his "Winter" the ultimate SP of the time. He left immediately after the SLC 2002.
    Lambiel - for 2nd place in Turino 2006 with no quad and he was well beyond 'good'.
    Gobel? 1st ever 4Lz attempt before the crowd.

    If we consider the most important in the f/s to be famous for anything specific we can find that about likely any participant in major Seniors competitions.

  17. #77
    On the Ice asiacheetah's Avatar
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    I personally think the two quad Lutzers in the Junior girls have imperfect technique with heavily pre-rotated quads. Without the benefit of slowing down, I can tell right away Anna's 4Lutz she took off facing forward.

    Trusova's leg positions aren't very tight in the air. Maybe I'm spoiled by Yuzu's technique of perfectly straight line and quick draw and tight legs, but the wrap on Sasha's leg (especially in her 4Sal) makes me think almost all her rotation is from the speed generated in the upper body.

    I really don't think either one of them will have a stable quad (at least not Lutz, maybe 4T) once puberty hits. I'm not saying they will loose it immediately as soon as they hit Seniors. I'm saying once they grew a few inches and added hips, I don't think they'll have it.

    With that aside, I think it's exciting that the Women field is pushing forward. Maybe because I wasn't rooting any specific skater, I was bored watching most of the women field during the Olympics (plus all the Carmen made me want to blow my ear drums out). The layout for women has become too predictable. The addition of a few quads and 3A certainly makes it more entertaining.

    I do think all the skaters jumping hard jumps (3A and quads and even some triples) will have health issues. The problem I think is from over training and not giving their bodies enough time to rest if somethings pains them. It's why people without quads like Evgenia, poor Anna have all had health issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    We have, for YEARS. In terms of men doing quads, during the whole quad craze of 204 to 2018.
    Questions were asked Orser abt Stephen Gogolev on safety, effects on young boys.

    As for Rika Kihira, as stated before, she is doing a TRIPLE. Yeah 3.5 revolutions, a jump can be 3.9 revolutions, its still a triple. + its just ONE type of jump. The quad discussion is abt all the quads except 4A.

    As far as I recall, people didnt debate abt health effects Mao Asada doing her 3As, just the 3A that is. Mao could still do 3A at age 26 I think. I.e. Data already available.
    The 3A discussion should have been waaayyyyyy back in 1988 when Midori Ito did the 1st one, 30 long years ago.
    No senior lady has successfully landed a quad in competition yet, we are waiting next season.

    Plus, all the male skaters do the 3A, what is there to compare between the men & women ? You are of course most welcome to gather data on the 8 or so women who have done 3A.

    So, discussion that pertains to BOTH male & female skaters currently is quads.
    When Rika successfully lands a 4S or 4T, then we add her to the list. After Japan Nationals, Kaori Sakamoto said she is training the 4T.
    This would make it my 3rd point - no point discussing 3A, the senior ladies are aiming for quads, like the men few years back.
    Miki Ando was trying 4S multiple times during her carreer (Syria Bonaly too, not that frequent, but she was also doing harder element than the quad). I just don't see how their body suffered because of that, and they obviously are not a part of ladies quad conversation and health issues here.

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    Quads. Why or why not?

    Trusova has just said in an interview that she will be trying for a Quad Flip now. I’m really afraid of the injuries she might get with a 4 Quad layout, both practising and executing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonewiththewind25 View Post
    Trusova has just said in an interview that she will be trying for a Quad Flip now. I’m really afraid of the injuries she might get with a 4 Quad layout, both practising and executing.
    She will not set multiple quad layout. She only wants another Wiki entry for her.
    Kostronaya also mentioned she's going for 4Lo. This one may be the most advanced pure quad (below 4A) yet not as expensive as 4Lz.

    Having even one quad makes any senior lady highly competitive. But having 3A does better (one may have three 3A in two programs like Kihira). But 3A and any quad above 4T are much better.

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