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Thread: Quads. Why or why not?

  1. #81
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    You may consider Yagudin famous for his "Winter" the ultimate SP of the time. He left immediately after the SLC 2002.

    Lambiel - for 2nd place in Turino 2006 with no quad and he was well beyond 'good'.

    Gobel? 1st ever 4Lz attempt before the crowd.

    If we consider the most important in the f/s to be famous for anything specific we can find that about likely any participant in major Seniors competitions.
    As for me, I have a different criterion for what is memorable about a skater's career. Yagudin's Winter was indeed a milestone in the construction of men's short programs (we hadn't seen that kind of toe-tappy footwork since the post-amateur career of Sonja Henie). But it is Yagudin's total body of work, 1998-2002, that secures his legacy.

    Same with Lambiel. Although if I had to single out one particular skill that set his performances above those of his peers it would be his spins, especially early in his career (pre-CoP).

    As for Timothy Goebel, I did not remember that he ever attempted a quad Lutz. He certainly wasn't the first -- Michael Weiss, for instance, had several triple Lutz attempts (all two-footed) in international competition. Goebel is, however, primarily remembered for his quads (first to land 3 quads in a program, etc.). But if I had to credit one skater with the "quad Lutz revolution" it would be Boyang JIn.

    I guess if anything I am more a footwork guy than a jump guy. Kurt Browing's greatest programs were Nyah and Singin' in the Rain. Patrick Chan blew the roof off the joint with his skating skills, and only later added a quad jump. This was the cherry on top of the Patrick Sundae, it wasn't the sundae itself.
    Last edited by Mathman; 12-27-2018 at 08:04 AM.

  2. #82
    Bona Fide Member Fluture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    She will not set multiple quad layout. She only wants another Wiki entry for her.
    Kostronaya also mentioned she's going for 4Lo. This one may be the most advanced pure quad (below 4A) yet not as expensive as 4Lz.

    Having even one quad makes any senior lady highly competitive. But having 3A does better (one may have three 3A in two programs like Kihira). But 3A and any quad above 4T are much better.
    When did Kostornaya say she‘s going for 4Lo?? Tarakanova said that, as far as I know, but not Alyona. I‘m selfish, I don‘t want her to try quads, rather get those 3As and with them and her wonderful SS she can be competitive even without them.

    I generally aesthetically prefer 3A much more to any quad. But if I could choose, I would have those girls focus more on their basic SS, triple jumps, performance quality and spins. For me quads aren‘t an upgrade if it ends like it does in men‘s... falls over falls and the performance suffers. I don‘t care if it‘s a sport, I would watch a Jason Brown or a Alena Kostornaya any day over a Nathan Chen or a Sasha Trusova. For me spinning and stroking and skating skills is also sport.

    And quads for little girls that are the age of my younger brother especially scare me. Those are children and from Trusova‘s interview it‘s very clear that she is indeed a child. They don‘t know what they‘re getting themselves into and what they could potentially do to their body. I feel like the adults have to step in and make sure they aren‘t endangering themselves. Children are like that. They have no fear, they want to try new things and they want to win. But how far can we let them choose for themselves before we say “stop“? I personally find no joy in seeing little kids jump quads. If there‘s thrill in that, I must have missed it. For me it‘s simply scary. But what do I know. I know at least that we‘ve lost this battle anyway. Figure skating is heading in that direction and I, a mere, simply skating fan, could never change that. And probably shouldn‘t. I will be allowed to focus more on those skaters who know the craft of “skating“ too. Because for me, I want to see figure SKATING not figure JUMPING. I want to see a performance and jumps should add to that. The jumps should never be the only performance. For me, quads in ladies? I know that they will and are already happening. Am I happy with that? No. Can I change it? Also no. I just wished someone would look after Sasha Trusova and limit her quads a bit. But again, there‘s nothing I could do anyway.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Miki Ando was trying 4S multiple times during her carreer (Syria Bonaly too, not that frequent, but she was also doing harder element than the quad). I just don't see how their body suffered because of that, and they obviously are not a part of ladies quad conversation and health issues here.
    Did Miki Ando successfully land a 4S in competition? No right, so it doesnt count. Whether it effected her physically we dont know for sure,unless Miki herself writes a tell all book or sthing.

    Trusova & Anna have & are expected to do so when they move up to seniors next season.

    The men's quad discussion & effects on their bodies only really came into play when the men started to do more than 4 quads total. 2 in SP, 3 in LP=5. Or rather when Patrick Chan started bringing it up.
    The quad craze of 2014 to 2018 have brought us : the 1st 4Lutz+3T combo, 1st 4Flip, 1st 4Loop, 1st 6 quads in LP. If it had carried on, we might ended up seeing 7 quads + 3 A
    To the extent this season ISU lowered the quads BV & limited the repeat of quads.

    People are talking abt injuries cos the effects can been seen on the senior men - Yuzuru's damaged ankle ligaments, Boyang Jin's torn ankle ligament bf OG 2018 till now not fully healed, Vincent Zhou's back injury during 2018 OG, Shoma's foot injury during 2018 WC and ankle sprain during Japan Nationals.
    I'm not sure Nathan Chen's hip surgery when he was 16/17 was due to him training quads or other reasons. Kolyada had back injury, not sure due to what reason.

    So, the logic is if the senior men get these injuries, what more the senior ladies.
    4 Lutz & 4T has been landed by junior ladies. Soon they will be senior.
    Then next someone will land 4S, then they'll start to do 2, 3 quads in LP. Then from 1 quad to 2 quads in SP. Then yet another will want to challenge 4 Flip & even 4 Loop.

    That was the pattern with the men, I believe that the ladies will be just as competitive.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    Did Miki Ando successfully land a 4S in competition? No right, so it doesnt count. Whether it effected her physically we dont know for sure,unless Miki herself writes a tell all book or sthing.

    Trusova & Anna have & are expected to do so when they move up to seniors next season.

    The men's quad discussion & effects on their bodies only really came into play when the men started to do more than 4 quads total. 2 in SP, 3 in LP=5. Or rather when Patrick Chan started bringing it up.
    The quad craze of 2014 to 2018 have brought us : the 1st 4Lutz+3T combo, 1st 4Flip, 1st 4Loop, 1st 6 quads in LP. If it had carried on, we might ended up seeing 7 quads + 3 A
    To the extent this season ISU lowered the quads BV & limited the repeat of quads.

    People are talking abt injuries cos the effects can been seen on the senior men - Yuzuru's damaged ankle ligaments, Boyang Jin's torn ankle ligament bf OG 2018 till now not fully healed, Vincent Zhou's back injury during 2018 OG, Shoma's foot injury during 2018 WC and ankle sprain during Japan Nationals.
    I'm not sure Nathan Chen's hip surgery when he was 16/17 was due to him training quads or other reasons. Kolyada had back injury, not sure due to what reason.

    So, the logic is if the senior men get these injuries, what more the senior ladies.
    4 Lutz & 4T has been landed by junior ladies. Soon they will be senior.
    Then next someone will land 4S, then they'll start to do 2, 3 quads in LP. Then from 1 quad to 2 quads in SP. Then yet another will want to challenge 4 Flip & even 4 Loop.

    That was the pattern with the men, I believe that the ladies will be just as competitive.
    Sasha landed 4S before 4Lz and 4T, for the record; she just doesn't do 4S anymore. She's said she wants to do flip and loop; I don't know if I agree with that choice, but if successful, she'd theoretically have 5 different types of quads in her first (two) senior seasons, which is scary.

  5. #85
    On the Ice MissBeeFarm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzxnl View Post
    Sasha landed 4S before 4Lz and 4T, for the record; she just doesn't do 4S anymore. She's said she wants to do flip and loop; I don't know if I agree with that choice, but if successful, she'd theoretically have 5 different types of quads in her first (two) senior seasons, which is scary.
    Scary for her competitors

  6. #86
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    The real problem any quad brings to the overall quality lays in the longer preparation (remember Pluschenko's empty programs?) and longer period of rest right after the landing.

    Having 2-3 quads totally ruined the presentation levels for Trusova, less so for Shcherbakova.
    Any mistake on quad costs any of the quad girl one place down.
    Yet, they take the risks proudly.

  7. #87
    Wakabond Forever Seren's Avatar
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    Like any element in skating, training something can be safe or not safe. Learning a jump younger (with good technique) will result in better muscle memory. Overtraining is what is dangerous. I know in Eteri's interview she said she doesn't just let her girls jump all day- a good coach has limits on what they will let a skater do for safety reasons. I think the issue with quads is how they approach it. As for whether or not these skaters will keep these jumps remains to be seen but if Mirai can land a 3A in the twilight of her career then I wouldn't count these girls out.

  8. #88
    Medalist Danibellerika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    Did Miki Ando successfully land a 4S in competition? No right, so it doesnt count.
    She did as a junior. I believe she was the first woman to land a ratified quad in competition. Sasha Cohen was also landing a 4S in practice and attempted it in competition a couple of times, but fell. Then she seemed to back off after the SLC season after she moved to Tarasova.

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    Depends. If you have Eteri technique, then I'm going to pass. If you have pristine technique (Hanyu, Fernandez), where even then training quads is dangerous, then calculate your risks.

  10. #90
    Piper and Paul are made of magic dust and unicorns Lester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    If a skater can learn, train and execute quads safely then why not go for them? Skaters only have one career and way back when I'm sure this same discussion would have been around the dangers of ladies doing triples. Times change and these skaters might not have a decade long career a la Kwan or Kostner but at least they will help push the sport forwards.
    To be honest I am not sure if one revolution more is 'pushing the sport forwards'. When you watch all those watered down programs with numerous mistakes and falls from the men it more feels like a setback than genuine progress. Sure, quads are exciting, but the novelty of having the more difficult ones is wearing out and more than two per program is a bit overkill anyway. Not that the men will stop trying to squeeze out points from everywhere anytime soon.

    As for the ladies, I don't see the point in even having one. They don't look particularly aesthetic and the toll on the body is too huge.

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    It's not one revolution. Its 33% above the same tripple one. Quite a progress...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lester View Post
    To be honest I am not sure if one revolution more is 'pushing the sport forwards'. When you watch all those watered down programs with numerous mistakes and falls from the men it more feels like a setback than genuine progress. Sure, quads are exciting, but the novelty of having the more difficult ones is wearing out and more than two per program is a bit overkill anyway. Not that the men will stop trying to squeeze out points from everywhere anytime soon.

    As for the ladies, I don't see the point in even having one. They don't look particularly aesthetic and the toll on the body is too huge.

  12. #92
    Bona Fide Member andromache's Avatar
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    One thing I will say is that while I am not thrilled about children doing quads or even competing at the senior level....I think it is telling that these issues were not raised when junior men started doing/attempting quads. Now that junior ladies are doing/attempting them, there is a LOT more worry and concern.

  13. #93
    “I solemnly swear I’m up to no good” Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andromache View Post
    One thing I will say is that while I am not thrilled about children doing quads or even competing at the senior level....I think it is telling that these issues were not raised when junior men started doing/attempting quads. Now that junior ladies are doing/attempting them, there is a LOT more worry and concern.
    Double standard? Yes! Sadly we’ve only come so far There are also many who have just glommed onto this issue though to continue a long standing grudge against a particular type of skating. It’s why this discussion (sadly) was doomed from the start. There are a lot of interesting avenues to explore and honest discussion/debates that could come of it. What ends up skewing the dialogue is when it becomes a discussion of preferences and not of logistics. Clearly a dead end at that point.

    I think the amount of PreRotation (YES I SEE IT) that Sasha does is perfectly acceptable in both men and women. Feel free to GIFbomb this post because I’ve looked closely at these quads. Some of her jumps may get more or less GOE than I think accurately reflects the effort. I don’t think her BV should be affected but at times could result in negative GOE. That’s more of a “fix the judging” than a “ban the quad” argument though.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Double standard? Yes! Sadly we’ve only come so far There are also many who have just glommed onto this issue though to continue a long standing grudge against a particular type of skating. It’s why this discussion (sadly) was doomed from the start. There are a lot of interesting avenues to explore and honest discussion/debates that could come of it. What ends up skewing the dialogue is when it becomes a discussion of preferences and not of logistics. Clearly a dead end at that point.

    I think the amount of PreRotation (YES I SEE IT) that Sasha does is perfectly acceptable in both men and women. Feel free to GIFbomb this post because I’ve looked closely at these quads. Some of her jumps may get more or less GOE than I think accurately reflects the effort. I don’t think her BV should be affected but at times could result in negative GOE. That’s more of a “fix the judging” than a “ban the quad” argument though.
    I think not only gender but also age plays a part in it. Usually (not always i.e. Gogolev) when junior boys start attempting quads they are at least 16, whereas the first videos of Anna and Sasha came out when they were 13.

  15. #95
    “I solemnly swear I’m up to no good” Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateSkates View Post
    I think not only gender but also age plays a part in it. Usually (not always i.e. Gogolev) when junior boys start attempting quads they are at least 16, whereas the first videos of Anna and Sasha came out when they were 13.
    Which serves right into the favor of those who believe girls develop faster physically than boys and should most likely start a few years earlier. 13 or 14 right? Does it not?

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Which serves right into the favor of those who believe girls develop faster physically than boys and should most likely start a few years earlier. 13 or 14 right? Does it not?
    Yes that is true - I just think people see 13 and think child while 16 somehow seems more adult. Not saying it’s correct just societal bias that makes 13 seem so much younger.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateSkates View Post
    Yes that is true - I just think people see 13 and think child while 16 somehow seems more adult. Not saying it’s correct just societal bias that makes 13 seem so much younger.
    I think those reactions are normal. Nothing notable though in terms of actually getting at the heart of the issue. I see several 11-14yr old girls in my region capable of landing triple jumps. If all goes well for them we may even see their names appear in one of our GS discussions as others have before. So from my perspective it isn’t crazy, wreckless, or against nature that a handful of girls at the top of sport are capable of doing quads with a pretty similar risk in that same age range. Honestly some of the double jumps look far more dangerous in person. Anyway. The amount of time on the ice and amount of training I see from skaters we’ll never see get past regionals should be equally concerning IMO but FTR I think the skaters gain a lot from their training and are lucky to have the opportunity to pursue it so vigorously. Ymmv

  18. #98
    Bona Fide Member atsumiri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nips View Post
    Everyone says, these juniors are phenomenal, let's wait a year-two how long can they keep the quads...
    but why wait? There're phenomenal right now. They're making a history. It's a fact. And nothing will ever change that. Like it or not. And even the strongest denies of their achievements will never change it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbob View Post
    If you are not okay with women doing quads, are you okay with men doing quads? (I would warrant to guess your answer is yes.) Because this same question was definitely debated with men many years ago, now it's not even a question... And secondly, why is there a double standard anyways?
    cause... "the wrong" skaters are doing them.

  19. #99
    Bona Fide Member atsumiri's Avatar
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    Selectivity and double standards....like always( It's really sad...
    When some things are doing the "wrong" skaters.. from the "wrong" country and with a "wrong" coach.
    It just goes round and round.....

    btw All of these talks about "bad tech and small jumps and small quads"... It's really funny. When it has nothing to do with reality.....
    When in reality Sasha's 4T3T has better height and distance and flow than 90% of current senior men field.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXyuBVIraBA

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by atsumiri View Post
    Selectivity and double standards....like always( It's really sad...
    When some things are doing the "wrong" skaters.. from the "wrong" country and with a "wrong" coach.
    It just goes round and round.....

    btw All of these talks about "bad tech and small jumps and small quads"... It's really funny. When it has nothing to do with reality.....
    When in reality Sasha's 4T3T has better height and distance and flow than 90% of current senior men field.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXyuBVIraBA
    If you had read this thread, it's been mentioned several times that the boys doing quads was and is still a worry to quite a lot of fans (as can be found in the archives).

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