Quads. Why or why not?

el henry · Dec 27, 2018

andromache said:
One thing I will say is that while I am not thrilled about children doing quads or even competing at the senior level....I think it is telling that these issues were not raised when junior men started doing/attempting quads. Now that junior ladies are doing/attempting them, there is a LOT more worry and concern.

Oh yes it was. by moi :biggrin:

and others:thumbsup:

I don’t mind if folks have different opinions, that’s why we’re here. I do mind the “oh my gawd it’s girl power, it’s picking on girls”. Having lived through the 60s and 70s as a feminist girl.

The heck if it is.

Spirals for Miles · Dec 27, 2018

el henry said:
Oh yes it was. by moi and others:thumbsup:

I don’t mind if folks have different opinions, that’s why we’re here. I do mind the “oh my gawd it’s girl power, it’s picking on girls”. Having lived through the 60s and 70s as a feminist girl.

The heck if it is.

I'm not going to comment on the quads part, no one wants to hear my long opinion anyway :biggrin:

But I will say, that as a girl, and someone only a bit older than these skaters, it does feel very empowering. Previously, skating seemed to be of the mindset that "oh well of course, the boys can just do these jumps and the girls can't". And that feels very defeating, especially the fact that it was so accepting. I admire Sasha and Anna's courage to break that mindset and to explore the limits of athleticism when it seems that the primary image of ladies' skating is the ice-fairy-princess image (not that either is bad or that one is better, just that this is different). It is empowering to see girls succeed at pushing the boundaries and writing history, and it is empowering to see them do what many people would have thought impossible.

So, regardless of my opinion on the quads themselves, I admire seeing athletic progress from girls. It provides inspiration to girls worldwide, and I hope that these young ladies can continue to push the sport in many ways - not just quads

Interspectator · Dec 27, 2018

As someone who participated in the earlier quads thread when it pertained to Men, I can assure current posters that 'quads for teenage boys' HAS been thoroughly discussed. Since it is only from these past two seasons that the girls have started trying them, it is not surprising that the subject has been brought up again with the focus on the girls.

But when Gogolev began to post videos of his quads at age 11, there was a lot of concern and debate. Same with Nathan and Vincent's early quads, as well as Shoma.

My feelings on it continue to be mixed.

Here are the first two threads from previous seasons to pop up on my search --though there are many more:

Quads discussion with a focus on young men.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?63936&p=1711393#post1711393
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?57149&p=1279233#post1279233

Specifically, Stephen Gogolev's Quad thread
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?55302&p=1162868#post1162868

lzxnl · Dec 27, 2018

I have nothing against quads themselves per se. I just don't like it when the jump is cheated by jumping forwards on a toe jump or using a full blade takeoff (I am also looking at Shoma's floop, not just Sasha and Anna's looptz for the record). Honestly, if Sasha jumped quads like Yuzu, I'd love it because it would look spectacular. As it is, the jump quality is significantly diminished by the prerotation, so my issue atm is more with the judging. I'm not worried about any inherent health concerns; these will be ironed out in time. As the years go on, coaches and skaters learn how to train quads safely and technology will improve. Embrace the change and perhaps people will also learn to take a shorter preparation too. Hanyu's 3A preparation is ridiculously short sometimes, for instance.

el henry · Dec 27, 2018

Spirals for Miles said:
I'm not going to comment on the quads part, no one wants to hear my long opinion anyway

But I will say, that as a girl, and someone only a bit older than these skaters, it does feel very empowering. Previously, skating seemed to be of the mindset that "oh well of course, the boys can just do these jumps and the girls can't". And that feels very defeating, especially the fact that it was so accepting. I admire Sasha and Anna's courage to break that mindset and to explore the limits of athleticism when it seems that the primary image of ladies' skating is the ice-fairy-princess image (not that either is bad or that one is better, just that this is different). It is empowering to see girls succeed at pushing the boundaries and writing history, and it is empowering to see them do what many people would have thought impossible.

So, regardless of my opinion on the quads themselves, I admire seeing athletic progress from girls. It provides inspiration to girls worldwide, and I hope that these young ladies can continue to push the sport in many ways - not just quads

Spirals, I understand your opinion (and others too) I said it before, I’ll say it again, if seeing the junior ladies do different quads makes one happy, I am all for that. Life is for watching the skating that makes one happy :biggrin:

I was trying to engage the following arguments: (I’m not saying you made them, I’m jumping off here)

1. Posters only ever show concern when it’s girls landing quads.
Uh, no:disapp:

2. If posters don’t support young girls training quads, they’re anti feminist or anti girl.
Uh, no :disapp:

3. If posters have concerns about young people training quads, they have some hidden agenda against certain skaters, countries, coaches, skate companies, whatever
Uh, no:disapp:

I was trying to negate the negative. Always a fun exercise

sx98423 · Dec 27, 2018

lzxnl said:
I have nothing against quads themselves per se. I just don't like it when the jump is cheated by jumping forwards on a toe jump or using a full blade takeoff (I am also looking at Shoma's floop, not just Sasha and Anna's looptz for the record). Honestly, if Sasha jumped quads like Yuzu, I'd love it because it would look spectacular. As it is, the jump quality is significantly diminished by the prerotation, so my issue atm is more with the judging. I'm not worried about any inherent health concerns; these will be ironed out in time. As the years go on, coaches and skaters learn how to train quads safely and technology will improve. Embrace the change and perhaps people will also learn to take a shorter preparation too. Hanyu's 3A preparation is ridiculously short sometimes, for instance.

i don't see prerotation/full blade assist unless it's in slowmo and i doubt anyone really sees it in real time unless they're going out of their way to look for it. for me even in slowmo when you can see it, it doesn't make the quads any less impressive. and in any case this could apply to triples as well, should skaters who do these things stop jumping triples then?

people complain about how quads means loss of artistry and how skating is just jumping now, etc but i've found that many of these same people are obsessed with prerotation/full blade takeoff/flutz, not saying this is you just a general observation. you would think that people who are so concerned with artistry and the overall skating wouldn't spend hours analyzing jumps in slow motion.

eaglehelang · Dec 27, 2018

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4076303
Patrick Chan's comments that got the ball rolling

Javier was asked abt the quads craze :
http://www.absoluteskating.com/index.php?cat=interviews&id=2018fernandez

There's a vid of 2017 WC men's press conference somewhere on youtube(I hope its still there) but here's the written version :
http://www.insideskating.net/2017/0...ed-here-to-experience-yuzuru-hanyus-greatness

Intv with Brian Orser :
http://www.insideskating.net/2018/0...ing-transitions-choreography-that-makes-sense
The quads question was at the beginning. Mention of Stephen Gogolev near the bottom part.

mrrice · Dec 27, 2018

My only concern has always been the skater's health. All I did was turn and jump on a floor in slippers but, I can tell you first hand. It's hard on the body to recover after rotating times in the air. That's a fact.

Ic3Rabbit · Dec 27, 2018

I know this one comes as a real shocker to those not trained to do it as second nature, but there are skaters, coaches and officials that can tell about a rotation/full blade and a ton of other things in real time.

- - - Updated - - -

mrrice said:
My only concern has always been the skater's health. All I did was turn and jump on a floor in slippers but, I can tell you first hand. It's hard on the body to recover after rotating times in the air. That's a fact.

I would have loved to have seen you dance just once!

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 27, 2018

Ic3Rabbit said:
I know this one comes as a real shocker to those not trained to do it as second nature, but there are skaters, coaches and officials that can tell about a rotation/full blade and a ton of other things in real time.

Not really much of a shocker. I think a good amount of us have a pretty decent amount of on ice experience. I certainly don’t think it should be used to discourage conversation with others who may not have the same opportunity. Elite skaters and officials are certainly not immune to bias and poor judgement either.

I would have loved to have seen you dance just once!

Maybe mrrice will link us to one of his old videos

mrrice · Dec 27, 2018

Here's me doing color guard in college back in the early 90's. This is when I met Bebe. I was a band geek and she was an orchestra gal. Tiny and sweet. I'm the jumping boy in the beginning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8FCCbLtkJE

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 27, 2018

mrrice said:
Here's me doing color guard in college back in the early 90's. This is when I met Bebe. I was a band geek and she was an orchestra gal. Tiny and sweet. I'm the jumping boy in the beginning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8FCCbLtkJE

Yass!!!

Mathman · Dec 27, 2018

Lunalovesskating · Dec 27, 2018

People tend to forget that Tara Lipinski had to retire at 15 years old and had to get a hip surgery, because she did too many 3-3 combos as a young girl. If "just" doing 3-3 combos can damage a young teenagers body so much, it is not suprising that many people are worried for these young junior girls and boys who are jumping so many Quads. People are just concerned. I mean look at all the senior men who are doing multiple Quads, even they get constantly injured because of it.

I do not mind skaters training Quads. I celebrate and support that they want to advance this sport especially the girls, however, I do not approve that young boys and girls are doing sooooo many Quads at such a young age. I mean even ISU already showed this year that they want to slow down the Quad craze a little bit by implementing the new Quad rule that allows only one Quad to be repeated and they are very generous to skaters who skate clean even with "just" triples e.g. Jason Brown leading the SP in France over Nathan Chen.

mrrice · Dec 27, 2018

Mathman said:

Thank you....I had so much fun back then. I never thought I would be so happy in my 50's. However. I love it! I love this site and all of its members. I love Mods for making me feel welcome. GS make me happy.

sx98423 · Dec 27, 2018

Ic3Rabbit said:
I know this one comes as a real shocker to those not trained to do it as second nature, but there are skaters, coaches and officials that can tell about a rotation/full blade and a ton of other things in real time.

sure maybe people who are trained to look for these things see it. personally i don't really care so i don't spend my time looking for these things anyways. either way those who are always going on about artistry and whatnot by their own words shouldn't care so much about these things. another frequent argument against quads is how it turns casual viewers off cause it's all about the jumps now but i'd say the constant scrutiny on prerotation and full blades would be a bigger turn off.

Ic3Rabbit · Dec 27, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Not really much of a shocker. I think a good amount of us have a pretty decent amount of on ice experience. I certainly don’t think it should be used to discourage conversation with others who may not have the same opportunity. Elite skaters and officials are certainly not immune to bias and poor judgement either.

My point was completely missed, but I'm not going to sit here and continue to try to explain, I'm going to just happily skip along.

Ic3Rabbit · Dec 27, 2018

sx98423 said:
sure maybe people who are trained to look for these things see it. personally i don't really care so i don't spend my time looking for these things anyways. either way those who are always going on about artistry and whatnot by their own words shouldn't care so much about these things. another frequent argument against quads is how it turns casual viewers off cause it's all about the jumps now but i'd say the constant scrutiny on prerotation and full blades would be a bigger turn off.

Same for this, wasn't talking about all those who are completely "trained" to see it, there are those that just do it day in and day out on the ice themselves for years and can notice something off right away w/o playback.
Either way, there is no reason to pick at those who appreciate artistry, there really is a happy medium but people fail to see it either way.

sx98423 · Dec 27, 2018

Ic3Rabbit said:
Same for this, wasn't talking about all those who are completely "trained" to see it, there are those that just do it day in and day out on the ice themselves for years and can notice something off right away w/o playback.
Either way, there is no reason to pick at those who appreciate artistry, there really is a happy medium but people fail to see it either way.

yes completely agree with this, i was just talking about those who preach about artistry but then seem to really spend a lot of time analyzing the technicalities of each jump

Ic3Rabbit · Dec 27, 2018

mrrice said:
Here's me doing color guard in college back in the early 90's. This is when I met Bebe. I was a band geek and she was an orchestra gal. Tiny and sweet. I'm the jumping boy in the beginning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8FCCbLtkJE

:hap36:

Quads. Why or why not?

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

Interspectator

lzxnl

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

sx98423

eaglehelang

mrrice

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

mrrice

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Mathman

Lunalovesskating

Moonbear power 🐻

mrrice

sx98423

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

sx98423

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

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