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Quads. Why or why not?
- Thread starter gonewiththewind25
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Ooooh lovely... and a good example of how lovely a good quad can be or maybe I'm biased, I do rather love watching him.
(OTT, but can I also mention that Stephane is probably the only skater in history that could look good in that costume?)
MulScler gaining on me. Or it was in SP?
Where Plu had +8 and defining advantage ...
Where Plu had +8 and defining advantage ...
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The female body is on average not as strong as the male one, I am not sure why we have to pretend there is no physiological difference.Double standard? Yes! Sadly we’ve only come so far
Besides people worry even about adult men doing quads so there is no discernible "double standard".
I'm not complaining about artistry or anything. Quads are not at odds with artistry if done well; Yuzu's quads in his SPs for the past two season have added to the choreography (haven't watched many of the men this season though). Poor artistry doesn't have to result from doing quads.
My comment about the technique is that it is pretty obvious and greatly changes the visuals of the jump. Compare Boyang or Nathan's 4Lz with Trusova's. The prerotation has an influence on how spectacular the jump looks. Her 4Lz is less special than Liza's 3Lz for that reason.
we'll just have to disagree then
the only way sasha's 4Lz could be less spectacular than liza's 3Lz for me would be if she fell on a severly UR one. a 4Lz no matter how prerotated (obviously not like 360 degrees prerotation) looks a lot cooler than a 3Lz to meand yes i wasn't talking about you when i mentioned the artistry stuff just a random observation about others
the issue isn't as simple as whether or not people are concerned about all quadsters. for certain skaters the concern is exactly that, concern and nothing else.
for certain other skaters the concern is just a facade, it isn't genuine at all. it's always predictions of career ending injuries and the tone of these comments makes it seem like these people actually hope the skaters lose their quads. it's a lot of jealousy and pettiness masqueraded as concern. pretty gross imo
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Nope. Lambiel's second element in the SP was 4T+3T. Where he lost points was doubling his triple Axel, which was always his nemesis jump. Patrick Chan was another skater whose triple Axel was less reliable than his quad. I guess we should not be surprised that these junior ladies can do a quad -- even a quad Lutz -- but not a triple Axel.
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I agree that a big triple jump from a lady skater generally looks way more visually impressive than a quad from a teenager because of the maturity of the body. I assume if Trusova is able to land her quads when she matures, they would look way more spectacular than they do now.
Whether these juniors keep their quads or lose them in the future is not that important an argument for whether they should invest time in developing them, but when the quads are developed at the expense of better skating skills, flow, edges, musicality... is there even a point? Or worse, when health is put at risk for a couple of points more.
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Yikes...that’s a lot for me to unpack first thing in the morning. I don’t think it’s a fair description of Sasha’s jumps referencing ISU standards but I find it shocking that you’re even assigning point value based on the mature look of someone’s body. It’s really hard to get my head around that. Liza should probably get more GOE on most jumps simply because the rules offer that avenue based on her quality of execution but BV shouldn’t be based on body type, age, or anything like that. Sasha’s quads conform to the existing guidelines and whether you like them or I like them based on our personal tastes misses the point (pun intended)
No matter how much I love Liza I wouldn’t call her a shining example of someone with great skating skills or musicality and if I were to apply your logic to your own post...what’s the point in Liza focusing on her jumps so much and going for 3axels when a skater like Sasha has arguable stronger skating skills and general steps. In my opinion both have a similar musicality. Is there even a point? Of course there is.,,,skaters all have different strengths and weakness and should be free to captitalize on them freely the best they can? To score as many points as possible in an event.
It seems absolutely unfair to factor body type and age into the value of a jump, spin, footwork sequence, etc..... If a skater lacks development in PCS then it should be reflected there. I’m assuming this logic of “mature bodies” only applies to the ladies though since men don’t take on the same metamorphosis really. Although maybe a buff dude in his 20’s should score more than a skinny undeveloped boy in his teens. I think that’s extremely unfair and is an unreasonable standard to set. I’ve never really seen this argument regarding the men though :think:
I think it’s important to note that saying “these juniors” conflates certain issues. I find Sasha’s jumps completely acceptable in every way ... Anna and Sasha have very different jumps and I think to remain fair both should be analyzed separately from each other.
This is why I emphasise I dislike Sasha and Anna's prerotation, and am sad that the judging does not do anything about this. They're not toe jumps. Liza's 3Lz is amazing in that regard; she gets off the ice immediately.
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She did though. They ratified her 4S from 2002. Junior grand prix final. But that was not my point. She was trying 4S multiple times (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR68Q4X45hg) and she still had succesfull career after that. To debate that jumping quads per se will necessarily ruin Trusova and Scherbakova bodies and their future career is just in contradictory with that, and to debating it while putting all the other examples of different skaters and their quads and triple axels aside, it is nothing more than (as i already stated) just a product of subjective preferences or better to say non-preferences (or double standars)... If you don't agree that skaters should jump quads is one thing, but if you don't agree that only Trusova and Shcherbakova should be jumping quads has totally different meaning than that...
Anyone should jump quads is too aggravated for now.
Anyone is allowed to try and include quads if feels so.
Even for a senior male skaters competition a valid SP and FP could include not a single quad. Low score is a score.
Anyone is allowed to try and include quads if feels so.
Even for a senior male skaters competition a valid SP and FP could include not a single quad. Low score is a score.
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Well I think you’re getting a little carried away here and saying they aren’t toe jumps seems a little over the top. Even using Liza as the standard you can see that even she prerotates about the same amount on her 3f as Sasha does on her quads. It’s pretty normal although Liza does a bit less than most on her 3z. She doesn’t get off immediately though...she pops just beyond 90 degrees.
https://youtu.be/3psNs0meQ14
You are welcome to create you’re own personal standards and dislike jumps because of prerotation but I wouldn’t hold out a lot of hope that trained ISU officials are using the same standard. I also think Sasha certainly exceeds today’s standards and the majority of her quads possess way more redeeming qualities than the amount of PreRotation she does which is already in line with today’s triple jumps standards.
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- Jun 21, 2003
In Tara's case it was specifically the triple loop / triple loop combo that tore up her hips. I don't want to be a Johnny One Note on this issue, but it was not the jump itself that was the disaster but rather the endless repetitions in practice that, one supposes, are necessary to master the element. It was reported that when a practice was not going well she would insist on doing 20 or so reps in a row. Her coach Richard Callaghan had to appeal to Tara's mom to help him drag her off the ice.
On the other hand, all those 3Lo/3Lo repetitions bought her an Olympic gold medal along with a shortened career.
Nathan Chen is kind of test case. He was plagued throughout his youthful career with growth-related leg problems (not necessarily related to quads per se). As a Novice and Junior, several times he had to take time off, withdraw from some events, or water down his programs in order to heal properly.
At the 2016 U.S. Nationals he became the first man to land 6 quads (2 in the SP and 4 in the LP), finishing in third place. for his efforts. At the Gala he tried one more and suffered a bone/ligament tear, taking him out of the world championships that year.
At the moment, though, he seems none the worse for wear. We keep our fingers crossed.
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- Sep 15, 2017
As already stated & posted by myself and other posters, with links, we had discussed effects of multiple quads on senior men.
Never once did I say Trusova or Anna or any female skater should not jump quads.
Once again, Patrick Chan's comments after WC 2017 :
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4076303
Intv with Brian Orser, last part on how they manage jumping quads thingy with Gogolev.
http://www.insideskating.net/2018/1...gonna-win-every-competition-pick-your-battles
If we discussed the quad revolution/craze of the men past few years(even before the issue went fully mainstream), naturally we will discuss the women when they start doing quads. Equality what.
During Miki Ando's skating years, how many quads were the men doing? One, two for LP?
Now, the standard for men is 1 quad in SP, 2 in LP, total= 3 quads.
Once again, Miki Ando did not successfully land a quad at senior level. Senior ladies category havent landed a quad yet, I am waiting for them to move up to senior.
For the men, we only count successfully landed quads. For the ladies, it should be the same, why should we step back to 3A or attempted quads, the data doesnt factor in.
Now the top men are doing 2 in SP, 4 in LP= 6 quads total. More quads, more pounding, more health risk. These points have been raised many, many, many times. At each competition. To the skaters, to the coaches, etc.
-> If the men are doing multiple quads, keep adding & adding(till ISU had to change the rules this year), I would expect the ladies to do the same.
If you all who have been exclaiming 'double standards' even casually follow senior men's discipline will know.
The ladies want to jump quads, go ahead, just do it as safely as possible. Not because of double standards or sexism, but bearing in mind what has happened/is happening to the senior men.
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- Jun 21, 2003
I think you are being a little too harsh on your fellow posters. I, for one, care about artistry (and I don't mind a little whatnot along with it. I assume "artistry" means Composition and Interpretation and "whatnot" means Presentation -- story-telling, connecting with the audience, showing personality, etc.).
But I also believe that, as a fan, I benefit from the expertise of posters with a more discerning technical eye, and I thank them for their contributions. (Maybe I "shouldn't," but I do.
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Relax, nobody is trembling in anticipation for you to unpack anything.
I talked about what is visually impressive, not about what should and does get points.
It is one thing to be a more apt jumper than an artistic skater, quite another to put off working on skating skills, musicality and other crucial sides of the performance to specifically focus on unnecessary and dangerous content. Especially since a well rounded junior skater would stand out even more than someone who can do a quad. These Russian girls would probably still win everything without the quads due to consistency and overall difficulty of their programs. It's not like the quads add anything.
Well, except headlines, of course.
Developed and precise men skaters also generally look better on the ice than the juniors with flailing limbs and frailer bodies. It's not something that's unfair, exactly, and not particularly dependent on body time. It's just something you build over time. Older skaters didn't just magically get it, they put in the years of work. Younger skaters, if they stick around, also keep looking better and better with time. Even someone as delicate as Yuzuru developed into an impressive mature skater.
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- Sep 15, 2017
Btw, Nathan's hip surgery at age 16/17 was due to what reason? Because Nathan had his surgery rather young, I'm wondering whether it was due to some sort of freak accident rather than quad training.
