Quads. Why or why not?

Mathman · Dec 28, 2018

As for the argument, "the more quads the less artistry" -- perhaps because of the long preparation time require for a quad set-up -- no, I don't buy that at all. There is nothing better than a long glide down the ice, a couple of powerful strokes to build speed, no irrelevant movements or meaningless transitions, maybe one turn to get you pointed in the right direction, then BANG into your most triumphant coup, right on the cymbal crash in the music.

Followed by a stare in the direction of you competitors saying, "You think you can beat me? Beat THIS!" :yes:

Baron Vladimir · Dec 28, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
You are welcome to create you’re own personal standards and dislike jumps because of prerotation but I wouldn’t hold out a lot of hope that trained ISU officials are using the same standard. I also think Sasha certainly exceeds today’s standards and the majority of her quads possess way more redeeming qualities than the amount of PreRotation she does which is already in line with today’s triple jumps standards.

The thing people are missing somehow is that Trusova already managed to exceel todays standards on triple jumps and triple-triple combos. Her 3Lz-3Lo combo in the second half is the second best scored combination in the ladies field and just half a point lower than Kihira's 3A-3T combo. I cant even remember if she recently failed to land triple jump or triple-triple combos. The only way for her to progess further in jumping is to jump 3A or quads. How she would even be motivated to skate competitively anymore when she alredy learned all her triples and combos to the highest degree and there is no other possibilites to try them out?

Mathman · Dec 28, 2018

eaglehelang said:
Btw, Nathan's hip surgery at age 16/17 was due to what reason? Because Nathan had his surgery rather young, I'm wondering whether it was due to some sort of freak accident rather than quad training.

Here is the incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcrdnUP73SQ

Nathan went up for a jump and came down holding his hip in pain and could not continue. The diagnosis was an avulsion fracture caused by trauma (presumably the trauma of landing a little off-kilter, perhaps with some weakened underlying conditions) This usually means that some ligaments are torn off the bone, or that a small piece of bone is broken off at the point of attachment of ligaments.

I am not a doctor, but I believe that his earlier challenges were related to sudden growth spurts in his leg bones -- not uncommon in tween and teanage boys.

el henry · Dec 28, 2018

I did a little research on avulsion fractures back in the day (and I do not even play a doctor on TV, so take that for what it’s worth)

Avulsion fractures do not just happen to teens walking down the street minding their own business because they are growing teens. In fact, it is rare, except among teen athletes.

They do happen to teens engaged in sports where there is repeated stress or force on muscles in short sudden bursts. Now what sport does that sound like?

Because the skeleton growth plates are not yet mature, they are subject to these kinds of fractures.

On the mobile and can’t link (isn’t that convenient? ) but there is an NIH study on avulsion fractures in tennis players, of which I understand about half. :laugh:

Which is one of the reasons I want more studies. But that’s just me and my caution

Ulrica · Dec 28, 2018

Mathman said:
As for the argument, "the more quads the less artistry" -- perhaps because of the long preparation time require for a quad set-up -- no, I don't buy that at all. There is nothing better than a long glide down the ice, a couple of powerful strokes to build speed, no irrelevant movements or meaningless transitions, maybe one turn to get you pointed in the right direction, then BANG into your most triumphant coup, right on the cymbal crash in the music.

Followed by a stare in the direction of you competitors saying, "You think you can beat me? Beat THIS!" :yes:

But then you are just watching a quad practice and not a program, what's even the point of the music if you are not going to listen to it, interpret it, feel it and sell it to the audience. Quads look magnificent when landed clean and accompanied by good choreography and interpretation, like Yuzuru's or some of Shoma's (Scherbakova also seems to listen to the music, and even though her take off for her quad lutz is quite flawed, she does land it very prettily and without negatively affecting her artistry), and I believe that every skater can maintain that balance if properly committed, Nathan's FP this season actually feels like a program, last season with so many quads, it felt more like watching a sequence of jumps, he seems pretty capable of maintaining a good balance of artistry and technique in the SP, as shown in his amazing SP from last season, but the FP is another story. So I think that quads, yes, with good technique AND artistry, these two shouldn't exclude one another.

andromache · Dec 28, 2018

Mathman said:
In Tara's case it was specifically the triple loop / triple loop combo that tore up her hips. I don't want to be a Johnny One Note on this issue, but it was not the jump itself that was the disaster but rather the endless repetitions in practice that, one supposes, are necessary to master the element. It was reported that when a practice was not going well she would insist on doing 20 or so reps in a row. Her coach Richard Callaghan had to appeal to Tara's mom to help him drag her off the ice.

On the other hand, all those 3Lo/3Lo repetitions bought her an Olympic gold medal along with a shortened career.

Tara's example is what scares me when I see Zagitova do so many 3Lo in a row (like she did in Olympic practice, if I remember correctly). I am curious about how many repetitions of various jumps are typical in practice for Eteri's students, and whether or not limits on some jumps are enforced to prevent injuries that come from overuse/repetition.

Mathman · Dec 28, 2018

Ulrica said:
But then you are just watching a quad practice and not a program, ...

I personally am happy with half and half. Half showboating "look what I can do!" and half "now here's a little something beautiful to make your heart rejoice."

There could even be two separate marks. We could call them the first mark and the second mark.

:yes:

Ulrica · Dec 28, 2018

Mathman said:
I personally am happy with half and half. Half showboating "look what I can do!" and half "now here's a little something beautiful to make your heart rejoice."

There could even be two separate marks. We could call them the first mark and the second mark. :yes:

The thing is, when you have a long glide down the ice and a couple of powerful strokes to build speed before every quad, you don't have time for a "now here's a little something beautiful to make your heart rejoice."
There are just so many minutes on a program.

Mathman · Dec 28, 2018

Ulrica said:
The thing is, when you have a long glide down the ice and a couple of powerful strokes to build speed before every quad, you don't have time for a "now here's a little something beautiful to make your heart rejoice."
There are just so many minutes on a program.

That's a good point. Still, my idea of a well constructed program is something like the following (Yuna Kim, 2013 worlds). She didn't do quads, but I would say that the preparations for almost all of the jumping passes-- certainly the first two -- were little more than stroking and gliding into position. This did not detract from the satisfaction of the program as a whole. To me, it gave the entirety of the experience that delicious tension of "inevitable, yet beyond expectation."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIU7Gsbkghg

Another example of "makes my heart rejoice."

Patrick Chan, one of the all-time great pure skaters, nevertheless does practically nothing for the first two minutes of this exquisite performance except set up and execute 4T+3T, 4T and 3A.

gonewiththewind25 · Dec 28, 2018

Trusova just posted a video of her 4F on Instagram.

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 28, 2018

Ulrica said:
The thing is, when you have a long glide down the ice and a couple of powerful strokes to build speed before every quad, you don't have time for a "now here's a little something beautiful to make your heart rejoice."
There are just so many minutes on a program.

Good thing Sasha does both long set ups and short ones into her quads. This 4f she did in practice today was a quicker set up than a lot of folks 3f

https://www.instagram.com/p/Br8Go4Nh-TE/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=fg85alqbs04a

This ought to ensure plenty of time for her to cantilever about and air fight with the judges.

neusw · Dec 28, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Good thing Sasha does both long set ups and short ones into her quads. This 4f she did in practice today was a quicker set up than a lot of folks 3f

https://www.instagram.com/p/Br8Go4Nh-TE/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=fg85alqbs04a

This ought to ensure plenty of time for her to cantilever about and air fight with the judges.

Sasha says: "Long hair, don't care (about any of these quad-skeptics)"

Mathman · Dec 28, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Good thing Sasha does both long set ups and short ones into her quads. This 4f she did in practice today was a quicker set up than a lot of folks 3f

https://www.instagram.com/p/Br8Go4Nh-TE/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=fg85alqbs04a

This ought to ensure plenty of time for her to cantilever about and air fight with the judges.

That is kind of a cool point, too. The standard three-turn entry to the flip is automatically shorter than the (formerly?) standard long outside glide into the Lutz.

ice coverage · Dec 28, 2018

Mathman said:
I personally am happy with half and half. Half showboating "look what I can do!" and half "now here's a little something beautiful to make your heart rejoice." …

My two cents:

(1) They are not mutually exclusive.

(2) "Showboating 'look what I can do!'" in skating does not necessarily have anything at all to do with jumps.

For example, I love spread eagles. When someone performs a spread eagle, I would say that s/he is both showboating and giving me "something beautiful to make [my] heart rejoice."

Same for certain types of spins, footwork, spirals, etc.

(3) For me, a well-executed jump -- the skater flying through the air and landing securely with good flow -- also can be something beautiful that makes my heart rejoice. (Does not have to be a quad.)

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 28, 2018

Mathman said:
That is kind of a cool point, too. The standard three-turn entry to the flip is automatically shorter than the (formerly?) standard long outside glide into the Lutz.

Is this not a fairly standard long glide into a Lutz?

https://youtu.be/068_P1z_pig?t=40s

Ulrica · Dec 28, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Good thing Sasha does both long set ups and short ones into her quads. This 4f she did in practice today was a quicker set up than a lot of folks 3f

https://www.instagram.com/p/Br8Go4Nh-TE/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=fg85alqbs04a

This ought to ensure plenty of time for her to cantilever about and air fight with the judges.

I actually believe she is one of the few skaters committed to balance out both artistry and jumps. Her program with quads actually feels like a program unlike some of the senior men. Though I do think Scherbakova it's a little more musical than her, but then again Trusova's quads are usually cleaner. As I said, artistry and quads should not exclude one another.

Baron Vladimir · Dec 28, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Is this not a fairly standard long glide into a Lutz?

https://youtu.be/068_P1z_pig?t=40s

It is. But standard long glide is nothing more than a preparation for a jump. And some components marks will suffer because of that...But that is another topic...

LindaTNo1 · Dec 28, 2018

I am of the Peggy Fleming generation and I think she recently said that artistry is important in figure skating, even suggesting artistry style competitions, I believe. As a gold medal winner herself, I agree that artistry is valuable. Jumps, quads show athleticism but nothing in the artistry of a program. Takes too long setting up a jump. Jumping to jump only. and Evan Lysacek won Olympic Gold without quads.

Spirals for Miles · Dec 28, 2018

The thing is, Russian ladies are starting to need quads to get ahead. There are so many ladies that can do 7-triple programs that only a fraction will compete internationally, and an incredible number can do 3Lz-3Lo (Zagitova, Trusova, Shcherbakova, Kostornaya, Akatieva, Samodelkina, Kanysheva, Sinitsyna, Safonova, Emelyanova, Vasilieva, Nugumanova, Gubanova, Chaplygina, Ogoreltseva, Tarakanova, etc...) that even that isn't as helpful now as it was before. Really the only jump frontier left for them is quads. And that is exactly where they turned.

Mathman · Dec 28, 2018

ice coverage said:
For example, I love spread eagles. When someone performs a spread eagle, I would say that s/he is both showboating and giving me "something beautiful to make [my] heart rejoice."

I agree. But unfortunately the ISU does not. The number of points that you get for your beautiful spread eagle is 0. Well, maybe a little tick in the TR or Choreography component if you do a bunch of other things along with it.

Quads. Why or why not?

Mathman

Baron Vladimir

Mathman

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Ulrica

andromache

Mathman

Ulrica

Mathman

gonewiththewind25

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

neusw

Mathman

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Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Ulrica

Baron Vladimir

LindaTNo1

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

Mathman

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