Quads. Why or why not?

Mathman · Dec 28, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
Is this not a fairly standard long glide into a Lutz?

https://youtu.be/068_P1z_pig?t=40s

Yes, that one is classic.

I think, though, that there is also a competing method that is shorter. (?) Is that right? One that is more friendly to throwing in a few extra transitions before the jump?

These entries seems a little shorter? (triple)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP8AFJbmHQo

(quad)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGPhymzFSfo

ice coverage · Dec 28, 2018

Mathman said:
I agree. But unfortunately the ISU does not. The number of points that you get for your beautiful spread eagle is 0. Well, maybe a little tick in the TR or Choreography component if you do a bunch of other things along with it.

Agreed re scoring of spread eagles.

I just find it weird to suggest that beauty in skating is not about "look at what I can do."

Metis · Dec 28, 2018

Mathman said:
Yes, that one is classic.

I think, though, that there is also a competing method that is shorter. (?) Is that right? One that is more friendly to throwing in a few extra transitions before the jump?

That’s the inside-outside change of edge entry. Rocking from the inside to outside edge helps generate speed for the Lutz, but there’s an argument for that entry requiring a ! call, since the edge isn’t clear from entry to takeoff, and being even slightly off will give you a flutz instead of a true Lutz. (There’s also not as much meaningful counter-rotation since the outside edge is only held for a moment at takeoff.)

Mathman · Dec 28, 2018

Metis said:
That’s the inside-outside change of edge entry. Rocking from the inside to outside edge helps generate speed for the Lutz, but there’s an argument for that entry requiring a ! call, since the edge isn’t clear from entry to takeoff, and being even slightly off will give you a flutz instead of a true Lutz. (There’s also not as much meaningful counter-rotation since the outside edge is only held for a moment at takeoff.)

Thank you. That's what I was trying to remember.

To me, what makes the Lutz such a cool jump is when the skater hunkers down into that long, long glide on as deep an outside edge as possible until BOOM she explodes into the air like being shot out of a canon.

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 28, 2018

Metis said:
That’s the inside-outside change of edge entry. Rocking from the inside to outside edge helps generate speed for the Lutz, but there’s an argument for that entry requiring a ! call, since the edge isn’t clear from entry to takeoff, and being even slightly off will give you a flutz instead of a true Lutz. (There’s also not as much meaningful counter-rotation since the outside edge is only held for a moment at takeoff.)

Sasha doesn’t flutz so that argument is a sign of how off the rails people are going with the flutz and prerotation discussions. Sasha is very clearly on an outside edge.

https://youtu.be/068_P1z_pig?t=5m17s

This is a proper 4z :yes:

ETA:

(There’s also not as much meaningful counter-rotation since the outside edge is only held for a moment at takeoff.)

To be clear the counter rotation is a form of technique instead of a requirement. A skater could sacrifice points to a stingy judge but the official rules state an outside edge with no official mention of counter rotation or time spent at the moment of take off. That is just internet mythology.

Metis · Dec 28, 2018

Mathman said:
Thank you. That's what I was trying to remember.

To me, what makes the Lutz such a cool jump is when the skater hunkers down into that long, long glide on as deep an outside edge as possible until BOOM she explodes into the air like being shot out of a canon.

Thank Kurt Browning, not me! He discussed it during Zagitova’s 2017-2018 Cup of China free skate and mentioned it’s a relatively new technique. There’s also the “flutz adjacent”-style entry where the skater begins on a deep outside edge but flattens as they approach the jump (or rock all the way to an inside edge) — Junhwan Cha does that for his 3Lz-3Lo. Like you, I prefer at least some glide before the actual Lutz. I think Elizaveta strikes the right balance between “showcasing edge control” and “telegraphed setup.”

Sam-Skwantch said:
Sasha doesn’t flutz so that argument is a sign of how off the rails people are going with the flutz and prerotation discussions. Sasha is very clearly on an outside edge.

I didn’t imply that she did...?

To be clear the counter rotation is a form of technique instead of a requirement. A skater could sacrifice points to a stingy judge but the official rules state an outside edge with no official mention of counter rotation or time spent at the moment of take off. That is just internet mythology.

It’s not Internet mythology. It’s actually an epistemological debate: if you have the right entry edge at the moment of takeoff but the jump isn’t counter-rotated, is it truly a Lutz? For me, the defining feature of the Lutz is counter-rotation, which is necessarily achieved by the correct edge. It is possible to have the correct edge (or at least lack an incorrect edge if you’re on a flat or the edge is unclear) at the moment of takeoff for the Lutz but lack counter-rotation. If all you care about is the edge, then that’s as true a Lutz as the textbook ones. It isn’t for me, and the jump is inherently less difficult the less it’s counter-rotated. But it’s not a problem that can be solved under CoP.

You’re projecting hard and reading way more into what I wrote about takeoff technique than is actually there.

Sam-Skwantch · Dec 28, 2018

Metis said:
I didn’t imply that she did...?

I thought you were saying the entry itself (which she uses) is subject to being called for an unclear edge. Sorry...I must have read too far into your statement.

Metis · Dec 28, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
I thought you were saying the entry itself (which she uses) is subject to being called for an unclear edge. Sorry...I must have read too far into your statement.

There’s an argument that that inside-outside edge change entrance can or should be called !/unclear, similar to the same criticism of Cha’s Lutz entry (deep outside to shallow outside at the moment of takeoff), as the outside edge isn’t as clearly established as it is when using the more conventional Lutz takeoff technique, the jump has less counter-rotation, etc. And if the skater falters in their timing, they may not rock to an outside edge before or at the moment of takeoff to demonstrate the jump is a Lutz — basically, the entry inherently leaves the skater more susceptible to a legitimate blurry, unclear, flat, or outright wrong edge call due to the fact that the edge change occurs very close to the moment the skater picks for the Lutz and the slightest issue in timing will create an edge error.

Whether a Lutz requires more than just a correct edge at the moment of takeoff is a separate debate. As I said, I define a Lutz as a jump that is counter-rotated, so if a skater has the correct edge but the jump isn’t visibly counter-rotated, I consider it to be a poorer-quality Lutz than, say, Tuktamysheva’s. But if the edge is correct at the moment of takeoff, it is a valid Lutz under CoP, which I’m not disputing. Just to be clear: if the edge is correct, that (seems) to be good enough under CoP, so all Lutz entries that end with an outside edge are valid under the rules as we know them. I disagree with the rules, but I’ve always acknowledged that’s a different issue.

I wasn’t trying to imply that Sasha herself has issues with the Lutz. (It would be impossible for her to do a 4Lz if she didn’t have the correct edge — the change to flat or inside would be very, very visible.)

neusw · Dec 28, 2018

Metis said:
There’s an argument that that inside-outside edge change entrance can or should be called !/unclear, similar to the same criticism of Cha’s Lutz entry (deep outside to shallow outside at the moment of takeoff), as the outside edge isn’t as clearly established as it is when using the more conventional Lutz takeoff technique, the jump has less counter-rotation, etc. And if the skater falters in their timing, they may not rock to an outside edge before or at the moment of takeoff to demonstrate the jump is a Lutz — basically, the entry inherently leaves the skater more susceptible to a legitimate blurry, unclear, flat, or outright wrong edge call due to the fact that the edge change occurs very close to the moment the skater picks for the Lutz and the slightest issue in timing will create an edge error.

Whether a Lutz requires more than just a correct edge at the moment of takeoff is a separate debate. As I said, I define a Lutz as a jump that is counter-rotated, so if a skater has the correct edge but the jump isn’t visibly counter-rotated, I consider it to be a poorer-quality Lutz than, say, Tuktamysheva’s. But if the edge is correct at the moment of takeoff, it is a valid Lutz under CoP, which I’m not disputing. Just to be clear: if the edge is correct, that (seems) to be good enough under CoP, so all Lutz entries that end with an outside edge are valid under the rules as we know them. I disagree with the rules, but I’ve always acknowledged that’s a different issue.

I wasn’t trying to imply that Sasha herself has issues with the Lutz. (It would be impossible for her to do a 4Lz if she didn’t have the correct edge — the change to flat or inside would be very, very visible.)

That's not the ISU definition, so no, there isn't an argument to be made that a shallow outside edge should be called unclear unless the ISU wants to change the definition of a lutz to require a sustained and consistent outside edge. Which, by the way, will never happen because that is not required of any other jump either. Let's try to argue that a toe requires a sustained and consistent outside edge before takeoff when many men are pulling quad toes out of their back pocket as an afterthought with no setup at all.

Mathman · Dec 28, 2018

Sam-Skwantch said:
To be clear the counter rotation is a form of technique instead of a requirement. A skater could sacrifice points to a stingy judge but the official rules state an outside edge with no official mention of counter rotation or time spent at the moment of take off. That is just internet mythology.

I think that Metis is right about that one. I have never been able to find an official "definition" of a Lutz jump in any ISU document. To say that it is a jump that takes off from a back outside edge is a (partial) description rather than a definition. The very fact that the ISU has a list of values for "wrong edge Lutzes" is proof that the edge is not the sole defining characteristic. (If it were, then there could be no such thing as a "wrong edge Lutz.)

I think that "counter-rotstion" is not so much Internet myth as it is the accumulated weight of figure skating history and practice.

But -- it seems to me that the counter-rotation and the outside edge go together. If you are riding the outside edge, you are automatically curving away from the direction of the jump. By the same token, with the long classic approach I don't see how it is possible to pre-rotate at all. If anything, you have an anti-rotation rather than a cheated one at take-off.

For the Flutzer who wobbles over from the outside edge to the inside edge at the last second and gets an "e," I think the most descriptive language is that "she released the pre-roration prematurely." (Thanks to gkelly for explaining it in those termss on this board.)

yume · Dec 28, 2018

I just saw Trusova 4F and Zagitova 4F in harness. I want to see that jump in their programs.

Mathman · Dec 28, 2018

neusw said:
That's not the ISU definition, so no, there isn't an argument to be made that a shallow outside edge should be called unclear unless the ISU wants to change the definition of a lutz to require a sustained and consistent outside edge. Which, by the way, will never happen ...

If my memory serves there was a proposal to the ISU Technical Committee two years ago to change the rules from the current "entire jump" view to the more restrictive "the edge is everything" definition. The decision at the time was to go with what became the present rules about lower specific base values for unclear and wrong edges, with a promise to revisit the issue after the 2018 Olympics.

IMHO the current rules seem to be working out OK and I haven't heard any more discussion of the proposal to change the rules to a hard and fast "outside edge = Lutz, inside edge = flip."

icybear · Dec 28, 2018

So Trusova now has every quad except the loop and axel. Lol imagine if Trusova landed the first 4a. :laugh:

It's going to irk a lot of Yuzuru fans.

xeyra · Dec 28, 2018

While we're busy debating whether they should, these girls are showing us they can, so they will. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Trusova became the second person to land 5 different quads, the rate she's going.

TallyT · Dec 28, 2018

icybear said:
So Trusova now has every quad except the loop and axel. Lol imagine if Trusova landed the first 4a. It's going to irk a lot of Yuzuru fans.

Some of us might be relieved if someone else would do it, truly, though sorry for him... what's her 3A like? (sorry, don't really follow the women, and missed the competitions she landed the others in)

Spirals for Miles · Dec 28, 2018

TallyT said:
Some of us might be relieved if someone else would do it, truly, though sorry for him... what's her 3A like? (sorry, don't really follow the women, and missed the competitions she landed the others in)

She doesn't do it. She started learning it first, but it didn't go well and I think she developed some sort of block around it.
wouldn't be surprised if she went straight for the 4A :laugh:

:shocked:

laybackrelaxspinfast · Dec 28, 2018

To add my opinion to the original question posed in this thread. I think that quads should be allowed and encouraged, if they can be executed cleanly and practised safely. I think it would be sensible for the figure skating community to classify all under rotations, step outs and falls from quads as a nullified element that receives no points. Why? Well because you have the likes of Jason Brown and Kaori Sakamoto skating their hearts out with beautiful skills and technique, but then you have messy programs with badly executed quads that are winning competitions. I think we can all agree that we would like to see the sport progress, but never should there be a race to land the hardest jumps whilst abandoning what the sport was fundamentally built on. I think to prevent passively rewarding elements that are clearly going to cause problems for skaters health if they are so inconsistent that you see hard falls a lot in competition and they have a very low rate of good execution of the jump, those in charge need to stop rewarding the higher base value when the jump is not executed. I know, ‘but they have trained hard and should be rewarded for trying’. Yes they have, but so have those who spend hours perfecting their spins or step sequences or height and running edge on their triples. We should be rewarding safe, well executed skating that is breath taking. We should not be rewarding jumps that make you cringe because it looks painful, laboured or dangerous. It’s a sport intertwined with art and should be treated as such. I personally would rather pay money to see Sasha Cohen complete a spiral sequence and a layback spin than any of the juniors land a quad. It’s all exciting and fun, but it’s not necessary and adds such little value in the grand scheme of things.

sx98423 · Dec 28, 2018

laybackrelaxspinfast said:
To add my opinion to the original question posed in this thread. I think that quads should be allowed and encouraged, if they can be executed cleanly and practised safely. I think it would be sensible for the figure skating community to classify all under rotations, step outs and falls from quads as a nullified element that receives no points. Why? Well because you have the likes of Jason Brown and Kaori Sakamoto skating their hearts out with beautiful skills and technique, but then you have messy programs with badly executed quads that are winning competitions. I think we can all agree that we would like to see the sport progress, but never should there be a race to land the hardest jumps whilst abandoning what the sport was fundamentally built on. I think to prevent passively rewarding elements that are clearly going to cause problems for skaters health if they are so inconsistent that you see hard falls a lot in competition and they have a very low rate of good execution of the jump, those in charge need to stop rewarding the higher base value when the jump is not executed. I know, ‘but they have worked hard to train and should be rewarded for trying’. Yes they have, but so have those who spend hours perfecting their spins or step sequences or height and running edge on their triples. We should be rewarding safe, well executed skating that is breath taking. We should not be rewarding jumps that make you cringe because it looks painful, laboured or dangerous. It’s a sport intertwined with art and should be treated as such. I personally would rather pay money to see Sasha Cohen complete a spiral sequence and a layback combination spin than any of the juniors land a quad. It’s all exciting and fun, but it’s not necessary and adds such little value in the grand scheme of things.

you should be happy then that most of the quad jumpers have already spent years perfecting their triples and have now moved onto quads. seems to me most of the quad jumpers also have nice spins and footwork. i can probably count on one hand how many times sasha has gotten level 3 spins or step sequence in the past 2 seasons

laybackrelaxspinfast · Dec 28, 2018

sx98423 said:
you should be happy then that most of the quad jumpers have already spent years perfecting their triples and have now moved onto quads. seems to me most of the quad jumpers also have nice spins and footwork. i can probably count on one hand how many times sasha has gotten level 3 spins or step sequence in the past 2 seasons

Well we will agree to disagree on that. I’m not here to bash anyone’s teachings or any skater. But I definitely don’t think I would use the word perfecting in relation to certain skaters jumps. That’s not just the ladies either.

lzxnl · Dec 28, 2018

gonewiththewind25 said:
Trusova just posted a video of her 4F on Instagram.

While it's cool that she's going for a 4F so quickly after Nationals, and her effort is certainly to be applauded, her prerotation on this one is horrendous. Part of me isn't surprised she can do it because it's so similar to her cheated 4Lz takeoff, and again that is the only thing that irks me. I don't care that it's a girl doing it.

Sam-Skwantch said:
Well I think you’re getting a little carried away here and saying they aren’t toe jumps seems a little over the top. Even using Liza as the standard you can see that even she prerotates about the same amount on her 3f as Sasha does on her quads. It’s pretty normal although Liza does a bit less than most on her 3z. She doesn’t get off immediately though...she pops just beyond 90 degrees.

https://youtu.be/3psNs0meQ14

You are welcome to create you’re own personal standards and dislike jumps because of prerotation but I wouldn’t hold out a lot of hope that trained ISU officials are using the same standard. I also think Sasha certainly exceeds today’s standards and the majority of her quads possess way more redeeming qualities than the amount of PreRotation she does which is already in line with today’s triple jumps standards.

I wouldn't be using Liza as the standard for 3F because she had well-documented struggles with that jump, and you're right; her 3F isn't perfect. Maybe she is still working on it. If you want a good flip, Yuna Kim and Nathan Chen, of course, come to mind. Yuna's lack of prerotation is amazing, while Nathan is still the only skater with a true 4F in my eyes. If Sasha could just land those quads without such dodgy technique I'd be quite thrilled for her. I'm very curious to see how her 4Lo will play out.

Quads. Why or why not?

Mathman

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605

Metis

Shepherdess of the Teal Deer

Mathman

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Metis

Shepherdess of the Teal Deer

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Metis

Shepherdess of the Teal Deer

neusw

Mathman

yume

🍉

Mathman

icybear

xeyra

Constant state

TallyT

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

laybackrelaxspinfast

sx98423

laybackrelaxspinfast

lzxnl

Similar threads

Connect with us