Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31

Thread: Is Charlie White a Genius Choreographer?

  1. #1
    Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset skylark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    4,177
    Country: United States of America

    8 Not allowed!

    Is Charlie White a Genius Choreographer?

    I am enchanted and maybe a little obsessed with Vanessa James and Morgan Cipres' free skate this year. And it's unexpected. Up until now, I've enjoyed them as a pair. But nowhere near to the extent that I enjoy them now; they've become my current undisputed favorites.

    At first I thought it was that their World Medal, and their whole last season, had given them an extra sheen of confidence in themselves, in each other, in their harmony on the ice. Then I thought maybe it was losing the stress of trying to do the quad throw.

    But they have altogether a new, shining aura in their free skate to Wicked Game, choreographed by Charlie White. And I see it rippling out and going forward.

    Charlie was a commentator somewhere last year for pairs. He always finds positive things to say. But I recall his saying of Tarah and Danny that he'd like to see a better connection between them, as they have many great qualities. During the highlights, he pointed out a place where coming out of a move, it would have made all the difference if Tarah would look into Danny's eyes, rather than down at the ice in that moment.

    I think Charlie excels in such little touches, and I wonder if he didn't give J/C little moments like that in the choreography. But the most wonderful thing, for me, about their free skate is its unhurried, stretched-out feeling. For instance, the lift that begins at 1:45 just goes on forever, with none of the position changes being jerky or rushed. Everything is languid and sexy, and every move is done to its fullest extent.

    Another thing I love is how at moments in the program, Vanessa seems to be leaning toward Morgan, while at the same time both are fully extended away from each other in their respective directions. This creates an effect of yearning while also maximizing the beauty of their long, beautiful lines and limbs. I think Morgan is "owning" his wing-span, which is magnificent; and Vanessa complements him so well that I was surprised to see that she's just 5'4" tall.

    Does anyone have thoughts? Such as about their transitions, improvements, the smooth beauty of their unison on the salchows ... and the Charlie White effect, if there is one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QuIiZa3A8U

  2. #2
    "I took a chance to build a world of mine...." Ic3Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    4,765
    Country: United States of America

    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by skylark View Post
    I am enchanted and maybe a little obsessed with Vanessa James and Morgan Cipres' free skate this year. And it's unexpected. Up until now, I've enjoyed them as a pair. But nowhere near to the extent that I enjoy them now; they've become my current undisputed favorites.

    At first I thought it was that their World Medal, and their whole last season, had given them an extra sheen of confidence in themselves, in each other, in their harmony on the ice. Then I thought maybe it was losing the stress of trying to do the quad throw.

    But they have altogether a new, shining aura in their free skate to Wicked Game, choreographed by Charlie White. And I see it rippling out and going forward.

    Charlie was a commentator somewhere last year for pairs. He always finds positive things to say. But I recall his saying of Tarah and Danny that he'd like to see a better connection between them, as they have many great qualities. During the highlights, he pointed out a place where coming out of a move, it would have made all the difference if Tarah would look into Danny's eyes, rather than down at the ice in that moment.

    I think Charlie excels in such little touches, and I wonder if he didn't give J/C little moments like that in the choreography. But the most wonderful thing, for me, about their free skate is its unhurried, stretched-out feeling. For instance, the lift that begins at 1:45 just goes on forever, with none of the position changes being jerky or rushed. Everything is languid and sexy, and every move is done to its fullest extent.

    Another thing I love is how at moments in the program, Vanessa seems to be leaning toward Morgan, while at the same time both are fully extended away from each other in their respective directions. This creates an effect of yearning while also maximizing the beauty of their long, beautiful lines and limbs. I think Morgan is "owning" his wing-span, which is magnificent; and Vanessa complements him so well that I was surprised to see that she's just 5'4" tall.

    Does anyone have thoughts? Such as about their transitions, improvements, the smooth beauty of their unison on the salchows ... and the Charlie White effect, if there is one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QuIiZa3A8U
    That is what any good choreographer that cares about their sport and job does. This transformation has been happening gradually with Vanessa and Morgan and is immensely helped by their coaches.

  3. #3
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,817
    Country: Honduras

    0 Not allowed!
    I love Charlie, but let´s remember he also made the short lived Romeo and Juliet program for Vincent Zhou

  4. #4
    GS Supporter
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    6,432

    6 Not allowed!
    I think one great program is not enough to call someone genius, or even great.
    This kind of diminuishes the work of people who had been choreographin for years or choreographing 20+ programs each season.

  5. #5
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    5,776

    2 Not allowed!
    I do love J/C FS. Charlie is a good fit for them. But is have to see more good programs by different skaters before I start calling him a genius.

  6. #6
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    271

    3 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by skylark View Post
    I am enchanted and maybe a little obsessed with Vanessa James and Morgan Cipres' free skate this year. And it's unexpected. Up until now, I've enjoyed them as a pair. But nowhere near to the extent that I enjoy them now; they've become my current undisputed favorites.

    At first I thought it was that their World Medal, and their whole last season, had given them an extra sheen of confidence in themselves, in each other, in their harmony on the ice. Then I thought maybe it was losing the stress of trying to do the quad throw.

    But they have altogether a new, shining aura in their free skate to Wicked Game, choreographed by Charlie White. And I see it rippling out and going forward.

    Charlie was a commentator somewhere last year for pairs. He always finds positive things to say. But I recall his saying of Tarah and Danny that he'd like to see a better connection between them, as they have many great qualities. During the highlights, he pointed out a place where coming out of a move, it would have made all the difference if Tarah would look into Danny's eyes, rather than down at the ice in that moment.

    I think Charlie excels in such little touches, and I wonder if he didn't give J/C little moments like that in the choreography. But the most wonderful thing, for me, about their free skate is its unhurried, stretched-out feeling. For instance, the lift that begins at 1:45 just goes on forever, with none of the position changes being jerky or rushed. Everything is languid and sexy, and every move is done to its fullest extent.

    Another thing I love is how at moments in the program, Vanessa seems to be leaning toward Morgan, while at the same time both are fully extended away from each other in their respective directions. This creates an effect of yearning while also maximizing the beauty of their long, beautiful lines and limbs. I think Morgan is "owning" his wing-span, which is magnificent; and Vanessa complements him so well that I was surprised to see that she's just 5'4" tall.

    Does anyone have thoughts? Such as about their transitions, improvements, the smooth beauty of their unison on the salchows ... and the Charlie White effect, if there is one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QuIiZa3A8U
    ITA. I loved them in Olympics - but now they are on entirely different level. Their free skate is transcendent, and it's due to amazing choreography!

    Brilliant. The smoothness, the never-ending lift, the musicality, and controlled passion in precise movements - it's perfection.

    It's true ART. This is what figure skating should be about. It should strive to create a moment, which would move the spectators' emotions to such awe that we'd remember that special moment forever.

    In terms of being a "perfect artistic moment, crystallized in memory", for me, this skate is on par with Torvill and Dean's Bolero.

  7. #7
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    271

    3 Not allowed!
    Of course it's choreography - James and Cipres are amazing, and the music is beautiful, but it's choreography which creates a dancing masterpiece.

  8. #8
    Bona Fide Member silverfoxes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    9,387

    1 Not allowed!
    I'm not sure it's better than the programs they had for the last 2 seasons. Not that it's bad, but this is not a new style for them (though it obviously works since they have the chemistry to pull it off), and it's not exactly reinventing the wheel. If everybody who choreographed one good program is a "genius," then what kind of superlatives are left for people like Shae-Lynn Bourne or Christopher Dean who have created so many masterpieces?

  9. #9
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    271

    5 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by silverfoxes View Post
    I'm not sure it's better than the programs they had for the last 2 seasons. Not that it's bad, but this is not a new style for them (though it obviously works since they have the chemistry to pull it off), and it's not exactly reinventing the wheel. If everybody who choreographed one good program is a "genius," then what kind of superlatives are left for people like Shae-Lynn Bourne or Christopher Dean who have created so many masterpieces?
    It is possible to create one masterpiece, and just for that be remembered as a "genius". Happens in art all the time.

  10. #10
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    34,779
    Country: United States of America

    4 Not allowed!
    Bizet's Carmen, for instance. Where would figure skating be without it?

  11. #11
    Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset skylark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    4,177
    Country: United States of America

    4 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual View Post
    ITA. I loved them in Olympics - but now they are on entirely different level. Their free skate is transcendent, and it's due to amazing choreography!

    Brilliant. The smoothness, the never-ending lift, the musicality, and controlled passion in precise movements - it's perfection.

    It's true ART. This is what figure skating should be about. It should strive to create a moment, which would move the spectators' emotions to such awe that we'd remember that special moment forever.

    In terms of being a "perfect artistic moment, crystallized in memory", for me, this skate is on par with Torvill and Dean's Bolero.
    Beautifully said. That's exactly what memorable programs do for me. Crystallize the perfect artistic, emotional moment.

    Just to add that at best, it's a co-creation between choreographer and performer(s). As I said, I've been admiring J/C ever since Zimmerman started working with them.

  12. #12
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    26,595
    Country: United States of America

    12 Not allowed!
    Charlie is also working with Mae Berenice Meite and Haven Denney & Brandon Frazier this season.

    I am hoping his James & Cipres fs is the start of a string of great programs. It takes a while for a choreographer to develop, and Charlie is coming along nicely imo.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 01-01-2019 at 06:53 PM.

  13. #13
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    34,779
    Country: United States of America

    8 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual View Post
    Of course it's choreography - James and Cipres are amazing, and the music is beautiful, but it's choreography which creates a dancing masterpiece.
    To me it's always the partnership between choreographer and artist. The potter and the clay need each other equally. Once in a while everything comes together, like Lori Nichol and Michelle Kwan, and it's art.

  14. #14
    Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset skylark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    4,177
    Country: United States of America

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Charlie is also working with Mae Berenice Meite and Haven Denney & Brandon Frazier this season.

    I am hoping his James & Cipres fs is the start of a string of great programs. It takes a while for a choreographer to develop, and Charlie is coming along nicely imo.
    I didn't know he was working with Haven and Brandon.

  15. #15
    Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset skylark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    4,177
    Country: United States of America

    3 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual View Post
    It is possible to create one masterpiece, and just for that be remembered as a "genius". Happens in art all the time.
    Yes. One-Hit- Wonders. Love 'em. Like Harper Lee with To Kill a Mockingbird, and Margaret Mitchell with GWTW.

  16. #16
    Tripping on the Podium champs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    719
    Country: Japan

    1 Not allowed!
    I wasn't impressed by Charlie's (I believe first competitive) choreography for Mura back in 2015-16 but as Mathman put it, the potter and the clay need each other equally. (sorry, no offense to Mura and his fans.) Charlie choreographed for him for two more seasons and also for Jinseo Kim (Mura's teammate) for his SP in 2016-17, with the latter I really liked. Both Charlie and Tanith were credited with the choreo for Angela Wang's FS last season though only Tanith is this season.

  17. #17
    Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset skylark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    4,177
    Country: United States of America

    1 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by champs View Post
    Both Charlie and Tanith were credited with the choreo for Angela Wang's FS last season though only Tanith is this season.
    That's right. I believe I read/heard that Angela was asked which one was the boss; she said Tanith. So I think Charlie's smart to be on his own, at least in this endeavour. And I think a single vision from a choreographer is a good idea.

  18. #18
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    2,680
    Country: Italy

    2 Not allowed!
    He's one of the new choreographers, i'd wait to call him a genius (people call Jeffrey Buttle also a genius and i think he's a fine choreographer but maybe not that amazing) but it will be interesting to see how he develops this career for sure.

    It's not just him we're seeing a new generation of good choreographers who are bringing new ideas in figure skating like Benoit Richaud, Misha Ge, Adam Solya or even Alyona Samarskaya which i think she is still quite underrated. (the RD she made for Stepanova/Bukin is probably my favourite program from this season)

  19. #19
    Bona Fide Member silverfoxes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    9,387

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by skylark View Post
    Yes. One-Hit- Wonders. Love 'em. Like Harper Lee with To Kill a Mockingbird, and Margaret Mitchell with GWTW.
    Yeah...I don't think his one program for J/C is on the level of those by any means. I get it, you're a fan, so maybe he is a genius to you, but it's not a word I would throw around so lightly. Especially since he has created several other programs, which are somewhere between mediocre and just ok.

  20. #20
    Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset skylark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    4,177
    Country: United States of America

    3 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by silverfoxes View Post
    Yeah...I don't think his one program for J/C is on the level of those by any means. I get it, you're a fan, so maybe he is a genius to you, but it's not a word I would throw around so lightly. Especially since he has created several other programs, which are somewhere between mediocre and just ok.
    No, it isn't because I'm a fan ... although I am a fan of his wild, while precise skating, and of his commentary. I hadn't paid attention to Charlie's choreography before this.

    I heard someone say, and I agree, that Charlie's choreo for J/C's free skate gives the impression that he had actually looked at his skaters before forming ideas of what to create. I'm not saying he's the only choreographer who does that, but in this program it's particularly noticeable.

    It's true synergism. He, Vanessa and Morgan have produced a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

    I maintain that this program alone does mark him as a genius. A choreography and collaborative genius. It's my opinion. You're entitled to yours, and vice versa.

    p.s Harper Lee and Margaret Mitchell didn't publish any novels before TKAM and GWTW. But they'd both been writing for years. Oh, and also, I feel there's a genius lurking inside every one of us. It may take certain conditions, and many years, to bring it out (and might never happen), but it's there.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •