Changing the age rule?

Fluture · Jan 24, 2019

I would agree on raising the age to 16. Isn‘t that the minimum age for gymnastics as well, or am I mistaken?

17... this would mean that someone like Alena Kostornaya would have to spend TWO more seasons in juniors. That‘s just way too long. And I think it would make the senior ranks too crowded as well.

Actually, I get the argument about protecting the children but I‘m not so sure raising the age limit would be the right way to go for that. Imagine even more ladies skaters on the JGP circuit. This year two silvers weren‘t even enough to qualify for JGPF. What would it mean if we had Zagitova, Samodurova etc still competing there? Zhenya wouldn‘t have won her first GPF, Euros and World title, Alina would have probably never had the chance to go to the Olympics. More skaters there would mean more pressure, even less spots. It could work if they added additional slots for countries at Junior Worlds and more spots at JGPF. But I doubt they‘d do that.

So, from me I’d say 16, yes, that sounds reasonable. But 17... no.

About the commentators... I think they were talking about this proposal after the Olympics. I don‘t believe that anything new is coming up.

Mathman · Jan 24, 2019

Elucidus said:
I always lol'ed with this argument .

Venus Haley was not presenting any argument, just trying to answer the question of what the ISU put forward at the turn of the centrury when they came up with the current age limits.

As for this 17-year-old thing that is proposed every couple of years, that is dead in the water. I don't think there are any serious discussions in the ISU about it. Figure skating has always been a teenaged girls' sport, ever since Sonja Henie won her first Norwegian championship at age ten.

Ulrica · Jan 24, 2019

Elucidus said:
What's more sad is that triumph of "mature woman skating" which was recent Canadian Nationals - will become standart. And it's inevitable with raising age. So between two evils I would choose short careers and brilliant skating any day
Also "traditional femininity and artistry" is being kept not only by 15 y.o. Kostornaia. Samodurova, Tarusina, Tarakanova, Gubanova - all of them are miles better in artistry than majority of adults - and all of them is below 17. Artistry is not that dependant on age as many thinks.
The thing is that women in single fs after certain age starting to deteriorate due to high (and increasing with fs progress) physiological demands jumping is requiring - whether you like it or not. It's just biology. No amounts of artificial rules is going to change it.

Tell that to Tuktamysheva, who at 22 has the best jumping technique of all of the senior women, and a triple axel. Or to Mao Asada, who landed two triple axels at 23 at the Olympics and broke a record at 23 at Worlds. Or to Osmond, whose peak was at the ages of 20-22. or to Kostner, whose athletic peak was at 26 with a bronze at the Olympics. Or to Slutskaya, who was technical beast at 24.

Women don't peak earlier because of "physiological reasons", they peak earlier because of bad technique learned from a young age which consequentially affects the body badly, over practicing and eating disorders.

Elucidus · Jan 24, 2019

Ulrica said:
Tell that to Tuktamysheva, who at 22 has the best jumping technique of all of the senior women, and a triple axel. Or to Mao Asada, who landed two triple axels at 23 at the Olympics and broke a record at 23 at Worlds. Or to Osmond, whose peak was at the ages of 20-22. or to Kostner, whose athletic peak was at 26 with a bronze at the Olympics. Or to Slutskaya, who was technical beast at 24.

Well, duh.. there are always exceptions, aren't there? :shrug:

However, in the big picture on an average - majority of lady skaters are obeying that trend. Also Slutskaya wouldn't be competitive now, Kostner became not competitive long time ago if she was judged fairly, Tuktamysheva was already admitting in an interview herself that she isn't able to increase her PCS score/transitions because modern requirements are too difficult for her and she is used to Sochi era skating, Asada and Osmond wouldn't be able to compete with Rika if they returned now and they would have even more difficulties next season... The progress in ladies fs is real - and so is requirements to the body condition.

DaNiCG · Jan 24, 2019

ulrica said:
tell that to tuktamysheva, who at 22 has the best jumping technique of all of the senior women, and a triple axel. Or to mao asada, who landed two triple axels at 23 at the olympics and broke a record at 23 at worlds. Or to osmond, whose peak was at the ages of 20-22. Or to kostner, whose athletic peak was at 26 with a bronze at the olympics. Or to slutskaya, who was technical beast at 24.

women don't peak earlier because of "physiological reasons", they peak earlier because of bad technique learned from a young age which consequentially affects the body badly, over practicing and eating disorders.

this

samkrut@mail.ru · Jan 24, 2019

There used to be professional curcuit for mature skaters. It died - it appeared that public was less and less interested in "mature skating" so that financial model of that curcuit failed.

Raising the age limit would be a stupid idea. For a while it will be plain boring: second-tier skaters will suddenly get the opportunities to win although on the absolute basis it will change little - they will be still second tier skaters only "protected by law".

But knowing that "the Russian wave" has started just several years ago followed by "the Japanese wave" one could see that all attempts to impede Russian-Japanese dominance by things like age limit are futile. In 2-3 years there will be a critical mass of skaters older than 16. In 5 years there will be a critical mass of Russian-Japanese skaters older than 18.

Moreover, other countries will be punished much stronger. Super talents won't come en masse there. And when someone like Alysa Liu appears she will have to wait long years before getting senior and the USA will have to wait long years with serious risks of losing it on the way. And no replacement will be ready because the is no "factory".

So, raising age limit to 18+ will result in complete Russia-Japan dominance beyond Bejing.

Elucidus · Jan 24, 2019

[email protected] said:
So, raising age limit to 18+ will result in complete Russia-Japan dominance beyond Bejing.

While I agree with what you said - Russia-Japan dominance is inevitable in any case, tbh - whether they raise age or not :biggrin:

It's just difference in resources they put in fs between countries - so they always would have different results on average.

Fluture · Jan 24, 2019

[email protected] said:
There used to be professional curcuit for mature skaters. It died - it appeared that public was less and less interested in "mature skating" so that financial model of that curcuit failed.

Raising the age limit would be a stupid idea. For a while it will be plain boring: second-tier skaters will suddenly get the opportunities to win although on the absolute basis it will change little - they will be still second tier skaters only "protected by law".

But knowing that "the Russian wave" has started just several years ago followed by "the Japanese wave" one could see that all attempts to impede Russian-Japanese dominance by things like age limit are futile. In 2-3 years there will be a critical mass of skaters older than 16. In 5 years there will be a critical mass of Russian-Japanese skaters older than 18.

Moreover, other countries will be punished much stronger. Super talents won't come en masse there. And when someone like Alysa Liu appears she will have to wait long years before getting senior and the USA will have to wait long years with serious risks of losing it on the way. And no replacement will be ready because the is no "factory".

So, raising age limit to 18+ will result in complete Russia-Japan dominance beyond Bejing.

I don‘t think there was ever a proposal to raise the age limit to 18+, was there? That would be insane. Imagine how the junior ranks would look? It just wouldn‘t work.

But what about 16? I think it‘s the same for rythmic gymnasts.

Edwin · Jan 24, 2019

I think our opinions do not matter to those who ultimately make the decisions in IOC and ISU and other governing bodies in sports.
I think media pressure and advertising money is another force to factor in. Kids beating the adults doesn't sell well in conservative media landscape in any sport.

The 3A's created a sensation because they are exceptionally good and they are kids, but they are the unique products of the state funded Russian system and Russia's ambitions to shine and dominate in many sports.

But then the Jnr GP and WC allow for skaters up to 19 years of age, and 19 year olds can hardly be called kids ....

Elucidus · Jan 24, 2019

Fluture said:
But what about 16? I think it‘s the same for rythmic gymnasts.

Why? What problem you are trying to solve in current fs that pushes you to propose the change? Please try to answer that question first before proposing anything. Unfortunately what I have seen from all these "age raising" topics are changes only for the sake of changes mostly. Almost noone even trying to bother explain what they don't like in current fs except some common phrases about health and protecting children. It's not convincing at all.
I LIKE what we have now, I very enjoyed last and current season and their leaders performances (which weren't possible with proposed rules, btw) and I don't see how troubles some skaters have (Radionova, Medvedeva etc.) are having anything to do with seniors age at all. Just change for the sake of change - that's all majority of people are motivated with.

Edwin said:
Kids beating the adults doesn't sell well in conservative media landscape in any sport.

I wouldn't be so sure about that :biggrin:

There ARE lots of fans of junior skating, after all. And many of fs fans who watches seniors comps only - are not that particularly interested in so called "mature skating". Great deal of fs fans are going to enjoy any performance as long as it's good - they are just used to watch fs on tv with commentators. Also tv shows like russian "Ice Age. Kids" are really-really popular

samkrut@mail.ru · Jan 24, 2019

Fluture said:
I don‘t think there was ever a proposal to raise the age limit to 18+, was there? That would be insane. Imagine how the junior ranks would look? It just wouldn‘t work.

But what about 16? I think it‘s the same for rythmic gymnasts.

I think there was. But I won't look it up.

As for any particular age limit there are 2 things: what would have been in the past? and what will it change in the future?

As for the former, not going past Sochi with 16 years limit we would not have had Yulia's SL which "brought me back" to figure skating and we would not have had Alina's win that resulted in so much drama.

As for the latter, it won't change 3A's eligibility for Beijing. And as it looks now (of course, there will be changes), Bejing will be about 3A competing with Rika. Then for Russia it's not a big deal.

What it will change is crossing out chances to compete for those who are considered to be relevant by then: Kamilla Valieva and Alysa Liu. For Kamilla it may be heart-breaking because 4 more years might be too long time to wait. Once again, for Russia it will be all the same (the "factory" argument). But for the U.S.A. it may be a big blow if Alysa delivers to promises during the next couple of seasons.

Fluture · Jan 24, 2019

Elucidus said:
Why? What problem you are trying to solve in current fs that pushes you to propose the change? Please try to answer that question first before proposing anything. Unfortunately what I have seen from all these "age raising" topics are changes only for the sake of changes mostly. Almost noone even trying to bother explain what they don't like in current fs except some common phrases about health and protecting children. It's not convincing at all.
I LIKE what we have now, I very enjoyed last and current season and their leaders performances (which weren't possible with proposed rules, btw) and I don't see how troubles some skaters have (Radionova, Medvedeva etc.) are having anything to do with seniors age at all. Just change for the sake of change - that's all majority of people are motivated with.

I was explaining above that I was merely making a suggestion as to if the senior minimum age had to be raised, I‘d only raise it to 16 because 17 seems too much and I don‘t think it would work. It‘d likely only create more problems.

I‘m kind of torn on this question and I don‘t think there‘s an easy answer to it. The main reason why I‘d raise it to 16 is that we often see female skaters move to seniors at 15 and win everything and then the year after that they face troubles due to puberty. At 16, it would be a bit fairer. Most of the young ones would have the biggest growth spurt already behind them or would be going through it right then. I don‘t know, at 16 most seem to be more mature physically and mentally, I think it would distinguish the juniors better from the seniors. But that‘s just my opinion and I have no say in ISU‘s decision anyway.

Having said that, I‘m aware that raising the age to 16, we‘d probably miss out on many great performances and many juniors would have to stay there one more year instead of moving up. It could be frustrating and the junior ranks would probably be even more crowded than they are now, which is hardly imaginable.

I think there are reasonable arguments for both sides and that‘s why I think it is such a difficult question. Personally, I wouldn‘t change things now. I would wait a few years at least and see how things progress. If people still feel an imminent need for change then, or if we find the senior ranks dominated by one year 15 year old quad wonders who then burn out, I‘d take action. Maybe raise the age limit, maybe restrict quads until a certain age. I don‘t know, I‘m not part of the ISU. And I‘m certainly not a fortune teller and I have no idea how things will work out. That‘s why I‘d suggest - simple as that - let’s wait and see.

Charlotte 71 · Jan 24, 2019

So, from me I’d say 16, yes, that sounds reasonable. But 17... no.

I think they should leave it at 15. It's right where it should be, IMO, pros and cons considered.

LenaRadiFan · Jan 24, 2019

Elucidus said:
Why? What problem you are trying to solve in current fs that pushes you to propose the change? Please try to answer that question first before proposing anything. Unfortunately what I have seen from all these "age raising" topics are changes only for the sake of changes mostly. Almost noone even trying to bother explain what they don't like in current fs except some common phrases about health and protecting children. It's not convincing at all.

Okay so I'll try to answer your "why". For me, it's less about 'oh, think of the children' or 'we wanna stop the russian wave'. These juniors are extremely capable of staying on top for one to two senior seasons and wow everyone.

Now, however with all, or at least most of the examples that had one of these seasons was struggling after they got the first growth spurt, they didn't adjust technique and just hoped it somehow worked. If the age limit got raised, to let's say 16, which I think is a perfectly reasonable age to turn senior, is that it pushes coache first and foremost to try to give their skaters technique that actually lasts, or adjust it if necessary.

Most girls are going/or went through puperty at 16 so why not raise it to that? Juniors are great to watch, and a lot of them have incredible talent no doubt. Now wouldn't it be even greater if those talented juniors would receive a technique for their elements that would not just let them peak at 15 and then slowly(or fast) but surely going downhill?

Figure skating is evolving, yes and the technical parts are getting harder and harder, yes. If coaches would actually pay attention to something like that suggested before, I don't think it would just fall down to 3-2 combinations at all because the coaches wouldn't be able to have the mindset "oh, it doesn't really matter if they start to lose their technique, they have won a lot of major medals already and I got a new young talent up and coming so why bother?" Anymore.

leafygreens · Jan 24, 2019

Elucidus said:
Why? What problem you are trying to solve in current fs that pushes you to propose the change? Please try to answer that question first before proposing anything. Unfortunately what I have seen from all these "age raising" topics are changes only for the sake of changes mostly. Almost noone even trying to bother explain what they don't like in current fs except some common phrases about health and protecting children. It's not convincing at all.

You could also ask "why" bother having junior category and senior category - why not lump them all in together? The point of categories is so that like abilities compete together. If the discrepancy between skaters in a category becomes so high, then it's worth taking a look at shifting the requirements, including age.

mau · Jan 24, 2019

“To keep the traditional femininity and artistry of Ladies figure skating intact an age raise might be needed, was their reason in the commentary stream.” :palmf:

Step Sequence4 · Jan 24, 2019

oh gosh I can already see this thread going bonkers

sweetice · Jan 24, 2019

Edwin said:
Are there indeed movements in ISU towards a higher minimum age?

There was a proposal about it on the last ISU congress, but not passed. The next congress will be at the end of the next season, so there's no chance anymore to hinder the three girls of the russian nationals podium.

maggieanne · Jan 24, 2019

I feel like the distinction between 15 and 16 isn't as big as some people think, both are reasonable ages to turn senior in my opinion. I don't think shifting the age up one year is going to drastically change skaters technique or mentality.

skatesofgold · Jan 24, 2019

Fluture said:
I would agree on raising the age to 16. Isn‘t that the minimum age for gymnastics as well, or am I mistaken?

17... this would mean that someone like Alena Kostornaya would have to spend TWO more seasons in juniors. That‘s just way too long. And I think it would make the senior ranks too crowded as well.

Actually, I get the argument about protecting the children but I‘m not so sure raising the age limit would be the right way to go for that. Imagine even more ladies skaters on the JGP circuit. This year two silvers weren‘t even enough to qualify for JGPF. What would it mean if we had Zagitova, Samodurova etc still competing there? Zhenya wouldn‘t have won her first GPF, Euros and World title, Alina would have probably never had the chance to go to the Olympics. More skaters there would mean more pressure, even less spots. It could work if they added additional slots for countries at Junior Worlds and more spots at JGPF. But I doubt they‘d do that.

So, from me I’d say 16, yes, that sounds reasonable. But 17... no.

About the commentators... I think they were talking about this proposal after the Olympics. I don‘t believe that anything new is coming up.

Gymnastics and figure skating essentially have the same age limit. They just use different wording. In gymnastics, you have to be 16 by the end of the calendar year because most of the major competitons are in the second half of the year. In figure skating, you have to turn 15 by the time the season starts, but that means there are a bunch of 16 year olds because their birthdays are in the second half of the year and a bunch of 15 1/2 to 16 year olds whose birthdays are in the first half of the following year. It’s a similar effect in gymnastics. If figure skating had the age limit of 16 before the season starts, that would eliminate 15 year olds completely. Gymnastics hasn’t done that yet for seniors. For example, a gymnast whose birthday is December 31, 2003 is still 15, but they can compete as a senior in 2019.

Changing the age rule?

Fluture

Mathman

Ulrica

Elucidus

Match Penalty

DaNiCG

[email protected]

Medalist

Elucidus

Match Penalty

Fluture

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

Elucidus

Match Penalty

[email protected]

Medalist

Fluture

Charlotte 71

LenaRadiFan

leafygreens

mau

3Lz3Lo3Lo3Lo3Lo

Step Sequence4

JULLLIEEEEETTTT!

sweetice

Praise the Ice God

maggieanne

skatesofgold

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