Amazing Gracie Gold article in NYT

RobinA said:

I think it is difficult for us relatively "normal" people, or a better way of putting it might be those of us whose lives have followed a relatively traditional trajectory, to understand how difficult it is to give up the only life you have ever known from an extremely young age. Especially a life that is as all-encompassing as an elite sport. Generally, we grow up knowing high school will come to an end, maybe we get a job in something that has looked interesting to us as we have been growing up. Maybe we go to college and major in something we have encountered that we think might interest us. All our friends are at or around the same stage in life and experiencing the same issues. We shed friends and gain new ones at a pace that is more or less comfortable to us. We sweat the transitions, but barring a big upheaval, they do not come all at once. Even if we move far away from home, we usually have considered it and are doing it as at least a positive change.

Contrast this with training all your life for something, having people spending gobs of money on it on your behalf, you've defined success as one thing, you haven't been exposed to much else, all your friends are part of that life, all the things you do. One day you wake up to the realization that it is making you sick! I think it would be natural to try to figure out how you can maintain that status quo while changing some things to make it less sickening.

I also think it needs to be more recognized by figure skating fans that "normal, healthy weight" for a female of a certain age is not going to win a skater awards in elite figure skating. Or gymnastics, for that matter. Increasing jump demands will increasingly reward disordered eating in all but a very, very few individuals. The winners will increasingly be, if they aren't already, those that can walk the weight loss line without getting swamped.

Click to expand...

I remember Yuna saying something about how one thing she was looking forward to in retirement is being able to eat whatever she wanted. And you can tell in her first year of retirement she gained a little bit of weight (of course still below average for her height/age) and looked beautiful and healthy. Even for someone like Yuna who had perfect jumping technique (and so did Gracie FWIW) being thin was still of utmost importance. I can imagine for every girl who watches her weight for the sport, another one internalizes it as dysmorphia and self-hatred.

sillylionlove29 said:

I am not an MD or a PHD but deal with people like this on an every day basis. Disordered eating (anorexia, bulimia etc) and addictions are actually considered mental illnesses and are classified under a DSM diagnosis.

Click to expand...

Anorexia and bulimia are serious mental ilnesses, named eating disorders, which one of the symptom is disortered eating. However its not every disordered eating product of a mental or 'psychological ilnness', it can be a product of some outside chemical and biological factors, or just a 'bad habit'. But very common is a problem of 'mental/personality disfunctions' too, just not that serious like the ones anorexia and bulimia are made of.

RobinA said:

Yes, the history of prepubescent national champions is not an inspiring one. The best thing that happened to Michelle Kwan was that they didn't crown her in 2005. She got to sit there in the Kiss and Cry in her sombrero with her flowers and a girlish smile on her face. Alysa Liu

Click to expand...

This.
I was thrilled for Alyssa -- yikes, 2 3As! -- but I also felt a little bit sad that she won. She deserves a few more years to grow up and work on her skating in peace. 13 is way too young to be pushed into the spotlight like that. :scratch:

RobinA said:

Yes, the history of prepubescent national champions is not an inspiring one. The best thing that happened to Michelle Kwan was that they didn't crown her in 2005. She got to sit there in the Kiss and Cry in her sombrero with her flowers and a girlish smile on her face. Alysa Liu

Ever time I hear the gushing for a new tiny skater I just think, How long have you been around skating?

Click to expand...

You meant 1995, mesathinks.

She was definitely crowned a National title in 2005 with that terrible Bolero.

Yes you are right. Sheesh, was it that long ago??

RobinA said:

Yes you are right. Sheesh, was it that long ago??

Click to expand...

duh, I never noticed either! MK was almost retired in 2005.

“I almost created this other person,” Gold said, adding: “I wanted to be the most flawless, angelic, plastic, Barbie-doll-face human who just says all the right things and does all the right things and is sterling. ”

Click to expand...

When I asked people at Nationals in 2015 who were their favorites, several said they loved Gracie for exactly these reasons. It wasn't entirely the media.

#1. Ashley Wagner speaks up for herself. #2. Ashley speaks up on behalf of other people. #3. Ashley speaks out against what she doesn't think is right.

Ironically, #1 and #3 are why many fans dislike Ashley. It's ironic because it's the opposite of creating a Persona that other people will like, or going along with what others desire to see. GS posters deride Ashley and insult her every time her name comes up; they assign her attitudes like "entitled" and many other much worse words that are unfair, untrue, and are probably based no more than their own projections. She's been a "whipping boy" (woman) around here for years. The same people don't notice, or ignore it, when she speaks up on behalf of other people.

oly2018 said:

... I was especially moved by her story about Ashley. ... when Gracie needed someone to advocate for her, Ashley stepped up. That's brave.

Click to expand...

gravy said:

When Gracie first spoke out about someone at Champs Camp helping her out I immediately thought of Ashley. Nice to confirm it was her who helped out. Interesting that both are now struggling with the same thing. Wish the best for Gracie (and Ashley).

Click to expand...

So did I. Being rivals doesn't mean being enemies. Ashley and Gracie have always struggled with the same pressures and image "requirements" all female figure skaters deal with. Ashley is now struggling with depression, anxiety, how to find a structure for her own life instead of having it imposed by the requirements of the sport, etc. She's writing a wonderful blog about exactly those issues. When I posted a link, someone wrote that the blog had "nothing at all to do with figure skating." Well .... I beg to differ. In addition, it's a wonderful resource for people of all walks of life dealing with the same issues.

And so is this story about Gracie. Bravo to her for being open. I really believe that it can help others, skaters and others. And possibly it can go some way toward evolving FS coaches' practices as well.

skylark, while I would love to see more outspoken female athletes in fs(we do desperately need to get rid of this 'ice princess' image), I must point out there is a difference between being outspoken and being crass. In Ashley's case, saying things like "they need to shut their mouths and watch me skate" in response to critics will not encourage fans to flock to you. Love her, hate her, whatever, but statements like that are simply not good for PR.

I'm concerned she has chosen to wean herself off her anti-depressant. A relapse is frequently in the future for someone who has suffered a suicidal depression. I'm confused about the status of her ED with her coach having to coax her to eat half a hamburger.
I think it would have been best if this article had been delayed until she was further down the road of recovery.

Icey said:

I'm concerned she has chosen to wean herself off her anti-depressant. A relapse is frequently in the future for someone who has suffered a suicidal depression. I'm confused about the status of her ED with her coach having to coax her to eat half a hamburger.
I think it would have been best if this article had been delayed until she was further down the road of recovery.

Click to expand...

depends on how significant the depression is. If it's pretty mild, cbt, exercise, and other healthy habits have been shown in studies to be as effective as an antidepressant.
also if it's situational vs clinical depression that's also different

jenaj said:

What basis is there to say her parents pushed her into it? It is all speculation. It isn't easy for a parent to affect a child's personality. Some might say it's impossible. More likely, Gracie had a perfectionist personality to begin with.

Click to expand...

I am not sure about Gracie and her parents, but some psychologists say mother-daughter relationships often contribute to eating disorders and "good daughters" tend to fall into such illness.

Both Akiko Suzuki and Jenifer Kirk have said their mothers' perfectionism had a huge influence on them. Akiko said she once tried to be a perfect child for her mother, and it was the perfectionism that drove her to anorexia. She started to recover when she could feel being accepted by her mother as she was even though she could not eat which was one of the most basic things as a human. They re-worked on their relationship.

Gracie's new coach, Vincent Restencourt insisting on dining with her regularly reminds me of Akiko's coach, Hiroshi Nagakubo, who did the same for her.

Akiko's recovery was slow, but in the end, she had a long successful career with a World bronze medal. I hope Gracie will take necessary time and come back as a healthy athlete.

satine said:

skylark, while I would love to see more outspoken female athletes in fs(we do desperately need to get rid of this 'ice princess' image), I must point out there is a difference between being outspoken and being crass. In Ashley's case, saying things like "they need to shut their mouths and watch me skate" in response to critics will not encourage fans to flock to you. Love her, hate her, whatever, but statements like that are simply not good for PR.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your comment. Well, the thing about being outspoken in the moment is that something unwise or impolitic is going to pop out from time to time. People who care one way or the other about a skater get to decide whether to hold it against her, or to take it in stride. I never saw that comment as "crass." I saw it as a normal response from someone who gets stormsful of criticism. She even got death threats coming up to the Sochi games.

If we want to see more outspoken female athletes, I think we have to understand that, just like men, women reach saturation points where their insecurities and totally human qualities emerge. Ashley said once that her mom had called her after she made that face at Sochi, saying, "Ashley, how many times have I told you ... etc." Ashley said to her mom, "I know." Then she said to the interviewer, "With me, what you see is what you get."

About those insecurities and other totally human qualities ... they're just what Gracie was trying to avoid showing to the public. I feel like for the sake of our female athletes ... and for ourselves ... we have to take the bad along with the good. Among many, many other stellar examples with Ashley, the good is just what this article highlights. Ashley stepped up bravely when she saw something in Gracie that frightened her. She stepped up and spoke up. Many people would have let their Inner Censors rule the day, and said nothing, thinking "it's none of my business."

Icey said:

I'm confused about the status of her ED with her coach having to coax her to eat half a hamburger.

Click to expand...

I'm only guessing ... but I wonder if recovery is partly about eating in front of other people. And that's why Vincent (and Akiko's coach) make it a weekly date.

I do think this is a good object lesson against jumping to conclusions about anyone ... skater or coach ... and airing those negative conclusions. Vincent has had his share of criticism on this forum on Gracie's behalf, and this article shows it was undeserved. After Gracie skated at Rostelecom Cup, people blamed Vincent for "letting" her compete there. Well, now we know he advised against it. But ultimately it was Gracie's decision. He treated her like an adult.

skylark said:

I'm only guessing ... but I wonder if recovery is partly about eating in front of other people. And that's why Vincent (and Akiko's coach) make it a weekly date.

Click to expand...

Recovery is about tackling all your fears and all types of foods, regardless of your weight. One of the most common fears and worries in those with eating disorders is being "allowed" to eat certain (i.e. unhealthy) foods when not underweight. It's something I massively struggled with in recover - when gaining weight I was "allowed" "bad" foods because gaining weight was the point. However when I reached a healthy weight I was terrified of eating them despite having had them for months because I still had the association "unhealthy food = weight gain". So breaking those associations is very important.
I also imagine in Gracie's case she has to be very careful of not slipping back into severe unhealthy and restrictive patterns like before. So it's important that she faces the fear and incorporates those foods into her diet to ensure things don't just swing back the other way.
Recovering from eating disorders/disordered eating is a long and arduous process, but it sounds to me like she and her coach both have their heads screwed on. I have my fingers crossed for her!!

Re: the eating half a hamburger....

It is extremely common for people who are used to either severely restricting or binging to just do one or the other and struggle to maintain balance in their diet. It's hard sometimes even for people without eating disorders!

With something like a hamburger, you feel like your two options are

A. "eat hamburger and be bad - now that I'm bad I'll probably eat a ton of fries and ice cream and feel guilty about it for the rest of the week and it all started because I ate the stupid hamburger, which I shouldn't even be eating in the first place because I am trying to get back to my pre-depression/competitive weight."

B. "don't eat hamburger and be good - I will instead have a salad with dressing on the side and no cheese or croutons, but while I'm eating that salad and it makes me miserable I will just be fantasizing about that hamburger because I am craving a damn hamburger!!! and eventually I will give into my craving and binge in a few days, but in the meantime I am starving myself."

Being able to eat half a hamburger = balance.

I have no idea what Gracie's thought process is like re: food, of course, but this sort of thinking and behavior is pretty common among people with eating disorders or crash dieters.

fzztsimmons said:

Recovery is about tackling all your fears and all types of foods, regardless of your weight. One of the most common fears and worries in those with eating disorders is being "allowed" to eat certain (i.e. unhealthy) foods when not underweight. It's something I massively struggled with in recover - when gaining weight I was "allowed" "bad" foods because gaining weight was the point. However when I reached a healthy weight I was terrified of eating them despite having had them for months because I still had the association "unhealthy food = weight gain". So breaking those associations is very important.
I also imagine in Gracie's case she has to be very careful of not slipping back into severe unhealthy and restrictive patterns like before. So it's important that she faces the fear and incorporates those foods into her diet to ensure things don't just swing back the other way.
Recovering from eating disorders/disordered eating is a long and arduous process, but it sounds to me like she and her coach both have their heads screwed on. I have my fingers crossed for her!!

Click to expand...

This. Labeling food as "good" or "bad" is not a good thing. You have to relearn how you eat, and for example being able to eat a single cookie instead of a whole container (because cookies are "bad" and if you eat a cookie YOU are "bad" so might as well eat the whole container.) My mother was so terrified I'd get fat she severely restricted my food intake as a child and teen, and when I got home from school I'd sneak food since I was hungry - then they put a lock on the freezer door, so I started hanging out at friends houses where they had such things as soda, chips, etc that we did not have in the house. So now my mother has a fat child, well, grown child. At least my brother is thin. It's a constant struggle which Weight Watchers and therapy are helping. Anyway. If you look at this video, you can see Gracie in an enormous Team USA hoodie (everyone else is wearing "normal" clothes for whatever the climate seems to be, and she seems so uncomfortable I want to cry. https://youtu.be/e6U4ipi3WNM

moonvine said:

This. Labeling food as "good" or "bad" is not a good thing. You have to relearn how you eat, and for example being able to eat a single cookie instead of a whole container (because cookies are "bad" and if you eat a cookie YOU are "bad" so might as well eat the whole container.) My mother was so terrified I'd get fat she severely restricted my food intake as a child and teen, and when I got home from school I'd sneak food since I was hungry - then they put a lock on the freezer door, so I started hanging out at friends houses where they had such things as soda, chips, etc that we did not have in the house. So now my mother has a fat child, well, grown child. At least my brother is thin. It's a constant struggle which Weight Watchers and therapy are helping. Anyway. If you look at this video, you can see Gracie in an enormous Team USA hoodie (everyone else is wearing "normal" clothes for whatever the climate seems to be, and she seems so uncomfortable I want to cry. https://youtu.be/e6U4ipi3WNM

Click to expand...

Gracie spoke about learning to eat one of something she liked and not an entire bag - I can eat one cronut and not a dozen in her interview that was briefly up on youtube last fall.

princessalica said:

Gracie spoke about learning to eat one of something she liked and not an entire bag - I can eat one cronut and not a dozen in her interview that was briefly up on youtube last fall.

Click to expand...

Despite all my wishes for her to skate again what I really wish for her is to be healthy. If she doesn't skate again I can watch her past performances on Youtube. If she can be healthy and skate, which seems to be what she's aiming for, she can have such a great influence on so many young athletes and even non athletes.

mikeko666 said:

I am not sure about Gracie and her parents, but some psychologists say mother-daughter relationships often contribute to eating disorders and "good daughters" tend to fall into such illness.

Both Akiko Suzuki and Jenifer Kirk have said their mothers' perfectionism had a huge influence on them. Akiko said she once tried to be a perfect child for her mother, and it was the perfectionism that drove her to anorexia. She started to recover when she could feel being accepted by her mother as she was even though she could not eat which was one of the most basic things as a human. They re-worked on their relationship.

Gracie's new coach, Vincent Restencourt insisting on dining with her regularly reminds me of Akiko's coach, Hiroshi Nagakubo, who did the same for her.

Akiko's recovery was slow, but in the end, she had a long successful career with a World bronze medal. I hope Gracie will take necessary time and come back as a healthy athlete.

Click to expand...

I agree. I just want her well No matter what we write we risk getting beaten up or some onedisagreeing. I just feel Gracie would benefit from some Gracie time away fromt he scrutiny of the public and media and even GULP Goldenskate. I don't know her but even if she likes thelimelight for whatever reason everything has been so fast and too dramatic forlack of words. Some will say but we do not know the extent of her eating disorder or mental health issues - true but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize Gracie has been going at a very fast speed with the media watch her every mood. If you look at the timeline she has been all over the place - needing time, to needing moreintesive treatment, andleaving skaiitingfor while, to;nottraining but ;toRussia to,Nationals to pulling out of nationals.

From People.com

http://https://people.com/sports/adam-rippon-ashley-wagner-put-rivalry-gracie-gold-aside/

More on Ashley helping Gracie