4 Axel or 5 Salchow

lzxnl · Feb 5, 2019

gkelly said:
Yes, one three-jump competition is allowed in a free skate. It can include any three jumps that would be allowed in the program. (I.e., you can't do 3T+3T+3T because it's only allowed to perform the same jump at most twice.)

Here's an example.

However, with no bonus to the base value for difficult combinations, is it worth including a combination that is likely to earn lower GOE and that uses up three triples all in one jump pass?

If you only have five triples in your repertoire, with two repeats for a total of seven, you could use up all your triples in five jump passes (or four if you include another 3-3 combo) and only be able to use double axels and easier doubles in the remaining jump passes. It might be wiser to spread them out in hopes of better GOE.

For a skater who does triple axels and/or quads, then a 3-3-3 would make more sense in terms of maximizing base value, possibly beyond whatever loss of GOE it might entail.

Same issue with quad-quad combo. Will it lead to using up the quads in your repertoire in fewer jump passes and leave other jump passes only that can only be filled with low-value jumps? In which case, it would make more sense to spread out the quads and most likely earn higher GOE.

For a guy with multiple quads who is already leaving out easy triples, it might be worthwhile.

But what would really make these things worthwhile would be either some bonus for the difficulty of the combination beyond just adding the base values of its constituent jumps, or else the possibility for skaters who use up all their triples (and double axels, for women) in less than 7 jump passes to replace the remaining slots with non-jump elements that are worth more than double jumps.

For the quad-quad, maybe someday it will be allowed in short programs, where it would definitely be worthwhile. But I don't expect that to happen until several guys have shown it in freeskates, which they won't do unless there's a big reward for doing it there to offset the big risk.

Re quad-quad, only Nathan Chen would seem to benefit from doing a quad-quad. Comparison of jump layouts:
Current layout:
4Lz
4F
4T
3A
4T+3T
3Lz+3T
3F+Eu+3S

New jump layout:
4Lz
4F
4T+4T
4S
3A
3Lz+3T
3F+3T+3Lo

This would be a bit of a silly layout, but it would replace Eu + 3S with 3T + 3Lo and a 4S for a 3T. The net effect is replacing a Eu+3S with a 4S, 3Lo which is more than a free 4S. Given that Nathan has trained 4-4 and 4-3-3, my plan might be on a similar track to what he's training.

Mathman · Feb 5, 2019

Miller said:
-- does anyone know how much a vertical leap of 46 inches might equate to time in the air as even reducing a bit for wearing the skates it might be possible to calculate a theoretical number of turns in the air at say an average revolution speed of 300 r.p.m.

Here is my favorite web site for calculating this. Enter vertical height in meters. The hang time is twice the "time until impact."

https://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed

48 inches = 1.2 meters. Hang time = 1 second. 300 rpms = 300/60 = 5 revolutions in 1 second. Perfect!

chopinskate · Feb 5, 2019

Mathman said:
Here is my favorite web site for calculating this. Enter vertical height in meters. The hang time is twice the "time until impact."

https://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed

48 inches = 1.2 meters. Hang time = 1 second. 300 rpms = 300/60 = 5 revolutions in 1 second. Perfect!

I just get a very close estimate using Newton's second equation

Mathman · Feb 5, 2019

Actually, I don't think any skater will ever be able to stand flat-footed on the ice and leap 4 feet into the air. But there is also the "pole vault off the toe pick" effect, which allows some of the horizontal momentum to be channeled vertically. Maybe this is why the quad Lutz seems to be not so rare any more, compared to other quads. (?)

Edit: Also

the human body is not a rigid cylinder. I would imagine that some of the kinetic energy is converted into heat. In principle this could be measured (by taking the skater's temperature before and after the jump). :scratch2:

chopinskate · Feb 5, 2019

Mathman said:
Edit: Also the human body is not a rigid cylinder. I would imagine that some of the kinetic energy is converted into heat. In principle this could be measured (by taking the skater's temperature before and after the jump).

And by measuring the loudness with which they thud?

draqq · Feb 5, 2019

The 4A will likely be landed sometime in this quadrennial, but it's worth much more to learn the "easier" quads first before even attempting the 4A. I don't think the quint will ever be performed, not sure if it's possible by the human body and the risk for injury having to train a quint would be extremely high.

jcoates · Feb 6, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
That David Jenkins video is a gem. Worth a watch again for those who haven't seen it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2unFSmlNjI

Vern Taylor landed it (I think with a turnout but still ratified) in 1978... 21 years later. So even if someone didn't land it in competition, there's nothing saying a skater isn't capable of it. We've been wrong many many many times before. I can't remember reading of one female skater way back, who claimed that women will never be able to land triples and I'd love to fast forward her in time to now and witness Trusova's/Scherbackova's 4Z.

I'd love to see what Jenkins could have done with modern air position and tighter legs. Such height! I can't help but think he could have at least come close to a quad. Also, going back into the archives, I remember reading once that Alexei Urmanov broke his leg or ankle in the early 90's training a quad axel. He'd already done quad toes in competition. So it wouldn't be surprising to see it landed in the next 2-3 years.

Mathman · Feb 6, 2019

For a quad-quad combination, it seems like the problem would be that you can't possibly have the same horizontal speed across the ice for the second as for the first. I don't know how the mechanics would go, but it seems like the first would have to be a regular ground-covering blockbuster and the second more straight up and down. (?)

I think someone will try it just for the "look what I can do" effect, even if the overall point total doesn't add up to much more than an easier layout. Quad Lutz-quad toe!

lzxnl · Feb 6, 2019

Mathman said:
For a quad-quad combination, it seems like the problem would be that you can't possibly have the same horizontal speed across the ice for the second as for the first. I don't know how the mechanics would go, but it seems like the first would have to be a regular ground-covering blockbuster and the second more straight up and down. (?)

I think someone will try it just for the "look what I can do" effect, even if the overall point total doesn't add up to much more than an easier layout. Quad Lutz-quad toe!

A quad quad means you don't have to repeat any jumps for your three combinations, if you can't do a 3Lo combination, and it opens the door for +4T, +3T, +3T+3Lo combinations, which would be worth an absurd number of points as you don't have Eu or doubles.

I posted a layout above that Nathan Chen could do which, compared to his current one, gets him an extra 4S for free, but relies on a quad quad. For the not-so insane skaters, a 3A-4T is probably good too:

3A-4T
4S-3T
4S
3A
3Lz
3F
3S-3T-3Lo
Of course, replace triples with more quads if the skater can do them.

doublequad · Feb 7, 2019

i would rather see 4-4 combos first

brens78 · Feb 7, 2019

The only way I can see a quint jump happening is if the skater had a ramp to get that extra height. I rather see well executed quads whether they're from mens or ladies.

4 Axel or 5 Salchow

lzxnl

Mathman

chopinskate

Mathman

chopinskate

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom

jcoates

Mathman

lzxnl

doublequad

brens78

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