Worlds: Pairs FS

So happy for Sui/Han. :luv17: :hap93:

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dorispulaski said:

… Thank you so much for all the quotes!

Ashley Cain's is puzzling, that she does not know what to do now. Won't they be going to World Team Trophy?

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I just received an FOFS e-mail with one of the skater videos that are a little perk of membership.

This one is a sincere and extemporaneous one-minute message of thanks from Ashley and Timothy, recorded outside at night.
In an endearing way, they are absolutely giddy with joy and excitement. Lots of laughter.

After happily explaining that they met their three goals for the season (national champions; world team and top ten; two spots for 2020), Ashley says, " … we don't know what to do with ourselves … we just had a lot of dim sum …" Then Timothy adds that they still are in Japan, etc., etc.

So my interpretation is that Ashley's phrasing was intended to be an expression of exhilaration along the lines of (the wording is from my imagination): Wow, it feels surreal that we met all three of our goals. We don't even know how to do justice to celebrating this super-special moment.
Just my opinion.

Congratulations to all the medallists!

Seriously though...T/M can't win, do something new and different - "OMG, they're embarrassing, they have no taste, their program is disgusting, they're idiots!"

Do something like Winter - "Oh God, they're so boring, they've got no emotion, why are they even bothering? Boring, boring, boring!"

This just iritates me no end, it's OK to not like a skater's style you know, just say you don't and be done with it. I'd rather T/M be ignored than have to hear the same old platitudes about them all the time.


BTW, I've been watching some of their old programs and there were plenty of times where they were smiling and happy, yes even Vladimir. Maybe they don't so much anymore because of all the negative things said to them, ever think of that?

anonymoose_au said:

Congratulations to all the medallists!

Seriously though...T/M can't win, do something new and different - "OMG, they're embarrassing, they have no taste, their program is disgusting, they're idiots!"

Do something like Winter - "Oh God, they're so boring, they've got no emotion, why are they even bothering? Boring, boring, boring!"

This just iritates me no end, it's OK to not like a skater's style you know, just say you don't and be done with it. I'd rather T/M be ignored than have to hear the same old platitudes about them all the time.


BTW, I've been watching some of their old programs and there were plenty of times where they were smiling and happy, yes even Vladimir. Maybe they don't so much anymore because of all the negative things said to them, ever think of that?

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Maybe they need to find the right person to work with them on their expression.

anonymoose_au said:

Congratulations to all the medallists!

Seriously though...T/M can't win, do something new and different - "OMG, they're embarrassing, they have no taste, their program is disgusting, they're idiots!"

Do something like Winter - "Oh God, they're so boring, they've got no emotion, why are they even bothering? Boring, boring, boring!"

This just iritates me no end, it's OK to not like a skater's style you know, just say you don't and be done with it. I'd rather T/M be ignored than have to hear the same old platitudes about them all the time.

BTW, I've been watching some of their old programs and there were plenty of times where they were smiling and happy, yes even Vladimir. Maybe they don't so much anymore because of all the negative things said to them, ever think of that?

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But given the amount of extra PCS and GOEs bump T/M get regardless, for "skating while Russian", they really have no excuse to look sour, don't you think?

Finally, my look back on this part of the competition. Pairs being my favourite discipline, I'm sorry to say that I was more wowed by the ladies, men and dance competitions this time round. Not just because I missed Aljona and Bruno whose La Terre Vue du Ciel is still my favourite programme ever. Wenjing and Cong compensated for that rather well with their lovely FS. That expression, that execution of the elements, that choreography. Well done! But Vladimir and Evgenia can do so much better, especially with this lovely programme of theirs. And Natalya and Alexander skated well, but just can't move me. Now, that last obviously isn't a prerequisite for getting a medal (imagine that), but I thought Peng and Yin were really much more interesting to watch. And, alas, my beloved Vanessa and Morgan did badly. They at least got a small medal for the FS, but I've seen better execution of that programme too (at Europeans and at the GP final they were so, so beautiful and everything was executed excellently). And what happened to Kirstin and Michael, whom I've also seen skating better? The young Russians, Alexandra and Dmitri, were a real highlight this FS. Not very original maybe in the music choice, but it's wonderful to see such youngsters skate to a classical piece in such a mature way. Also, her smile is just heartwarming. Ashley and Timothy made me very happy too. So, there were some highlights but all-in-all I wasn't really satisfied with the pairs competition this year. Probably hoping too much for a similar experience as last year when both the OG and the WC were just fabulous in the pairs. One can't have that all the time, I suppose!

ladyjane said:

I thought Peng and Yin were really much more interesting to watch. And, alas, my beloved Vanessa and Morgan did badly. They at least got a small medal for the FS, but I've seen better execution of that programme too (at Europeans and at the GP final they were so, so beautiful and everything was executed excellently). And what happened to Kirstin and Michael, whom I've also seen skating better? The young Russians, Alexandra and Dmitri, were a real highlight this FS. Not very original maybe in the music choice, but it's wonderful to see such youngsters skate to a classical piece in such a mature way. Also, her smile is just heartwarming. Ashley and Timothy made me very happy too. So, there were some highlights but all-in-all I wasn't really satisfied with the pairs competition this year. Probably hoping too much for a similar experience as last year when both the OG and the WC were just fabulous in the pairs. One can't have that all the time, I suppose!

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It was a disappointing WC (apart from very few highlights and FS from S/H, J/C, P/Y, C/L) - but it was compensated somewhat by progressively fantastic skates by Vanessa and Morgan all season long. Their program mesmerized similar to Alena/Bruno's Olympic WC skate.

Too bad WC was so bad, apart from a few exceptions, but at least we got our beautiful skating moments during the season.

Ahem, true confession time...I kinda feel towards Sui and Han like most everyone feels towards T/M

I finally got around to watching S/H's FS and while I enjoyed it and definitely felt it should have won, I didn't make me catch my breath like Aljona and Bruno's FS last year or even T/M's SP a few days ago. Like I wasn't enthralled. Which is no fault of S/H...but I dunno, are they three points better in PCS than T/M? Should they have won by over 8 points? I'm just not sure.

Casual said:

But given the amount of extra PCS and GOEs bump T/M get regardless, for "skating while Russian", they really have no excuse to look sour, don't you think?

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Um, I know you're being facetious but WHERE do T/M not deserve their PCS? Their skating skills are beautiful, they have plenty of transitions, their choreography while not to everyone's taste is in no way lacking - in particular for programs like their Lord of the Dance or Electric Swing. Their interpretation might not be as good at S/H or Vanessa and Morgan, but it's not completely missing.

I was also being facetious when mentioning their expressions, some people don't walk around grinning ear to ear all the time, it doesn't mean they don't have feelings or they don't have a connection to each other. I don't know if you saw some of the stuff written about Candyman last year, but some of it was atrocious and I'm pretty sure none of those people would have wanted to say what they wrote to T/M in person and if they did, well...that's terrible.

What a glorious final!

Wenjing and Cong were exceptional. Such a magical performance.

I enjoyed all free skates in the top 5 as well. :agree:

Don't know how to properly word this to get my point across but I don't think some of you are being fair towards the Russians. I get being salty that you favourites didn't win (trust me, I get that) and, had T/M won this instead of S/H I would have agreed that there was blatant favouritism... but that didn't happen. And P/J and Z/E were quite close and it could have gone either way, though I would have put Z/E ahead as well. Technically both Russian teams were great (T/M were slightly more unsure and were judged lower accordingly). Most mention programs when talking about why they should not have won and ok, you can dislike them, but that's not a good enough reason to have the teams lose. I for one enjoyed the programs of both T/M and Z/E. Especially Z/E, who people seem to really despise. I wish T/M got even better programs but I still liked the ones that they had well enough and enjoyed the performances of both teams. Not every team, program and performance needs to be overly emotional and ~in your face~. Some were complaining that there was no connection between the partners, the music, the choreography, etc. but I disagree there, I do think that both teams connected with the music and their partners. Just because you dislike something doesn't mean that is universally true for everyone, this is subjective. Either way, I personally think the results were more or less correct and the teams did very well, congratulations to everyone.

The first 15 seconds had me with Sui/Han. They are so innovative! I was happy to see T/M come through so strong in their SP. Their LP was good but didn't have the special moments found with Sui/Han. I think pairs is such a tough discipline. They are expected to do these incredibly difficult lifts with girations that defy nature-and frankly are often not that attractive. Along with that they need strong jumps, spins,throws and artistry. The possiblity of injury is so significant that I can't imagine letting my child take on such a sport. The learning curve is just so slippery! So bravo to all!

btw...shout out to US team Cain/LeDuc. They finished 9th and celebrated the fact that they were able to bring back 2 spots for the US next year. That's sportsmanship!

skylark said:

My take on Ashley and Tim is that World Team Trophy is right up their alley, and they don't minimize it in the least, and they'll relish the joy, effort and honor of a different kind of team experience.

I can't speak for Ashley, but I take it as almost metaphorical that she said, "We don’t know what to do with ourselves now because our season has finally come all together.” It would be like writing a novel and finishing it, typing The End. The next day, after such a marathon of effort and intensity, you're dazed, and now what do you do with yourself? For a moment, you feel at loose ends. Then you remember you have a whole series of interviews to finish up, and you get right to it. Also, Ashley didn't say their season had come to an end; she said it has come together. The story arc that they imagined and visualized and put all their passion and energy into has now materialized. Anyway, that's my best understanding of her meaning.

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Yes. Their goals for the season were to win nationals and be in top 10 at worlds. Their mindset has been so focused on achieving those goals that there was no plan as to what would come after they actually achieved them.

I love watching this pair skate. They bring something different to pairs skating. Their long is mesmerizing and beautiful. I have watched the nationals performance over and over and still love it.

The other day I wrote a lengthy reply to this thread and then the forum kicked me out because it took too long and the post just disappeared :hslap: I try to summarize what I was trying to say.

As a fan, I find it tiring how people just keep on dragging T/M. Whatever they do, people don't seem to like their programs, and that they think means they don't deserve their PCS. I think it's absolutely fine to be indifferent towards or even dislike their programs, because of course everybody has different taste. However PCS not just given based on whose program one likes the most and in reality PCS is not awarded solely based on the ISU criteria either. Or else Boyang Jin (or many other skaters for that matter) would not get better marks on SS than Han Yan, ever (just giving an example). The reality seems to be that the judges seem to go with the overall impression and if a skater has established themselves somehow, made themselves stand out. And having seen T/M perform live, they do stand out. They are very fast, they accelerate easily, their blades make this good kind of grovel. There should be no argument as to whether or not they deserve their SS marks. They skate HUGE and they do have a presence. They have a lot of difficult transitions. Their programs are coherent, both their programs at this years worlds were beautiful and moving. People make the argument that they are expressionless, but I don't feel that way. I do see that they perform, but it is more introverted kind of performance. There seems to be kind of honesty to what kind of people they are, and they seem like nice, shy people. Also, it seems obvious they both do a lot of ballet, it's not like they are some ungainly people and off their music all the time.

When it comes to GOE, they do have great technique. Again, everything they do just kind of is inherently 'wow'-inducing. And the judges in general turn a bit of a blind eye towards smaller mistakes the top skaters do. It doesn't seem to bother people much when it happens to their favorites. I did not see people complaining when Boikova/Kozlovskii got positive GOE on their throw that she slightly two footed. It's a great throw, amazing technique, you just go 'wow' when you see it, never mind if her free foot slightly touched the ice. Yet if Tarasova does it and still gets positive GOE, people complain.

It could however be I'm just seeing something that really isn't there and the Russians do konspire but I just wanted to voice my opinion.

newyn said:

whole post

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I think you may be referring to a vocal minority. I don't view the situation as damned if they do, damned if they don't. I think the more accurate picture of what I've seen in GS is folks acknowledging their breathtaking technique and skating skills, but feeling that their material doesn't connect.

A lot of us want to feel something when we watch skating and for whatever reason T/M have not managed to convert their pristine technique to engaging programs. There's nothing uniquely Russian about that because we've had many Russian teams sweep us off our feet.

T/M have work to do as does every team. Connection to each other and to the audience is something they can improve upon. I've also critiqued the Moser school more generally for not creating compelling material and packaging. Anyone who thought Candyman was a good vehicle for them (and I mean the coaches) needs to do some work.

To me T/M are technically great... but so boring to watch. Even their Candyman was boring (actually it was odd combination of annoying and boring). This year it is just technically brilliant dullness. They check the bulletpoints, but I am looking at the clock...

Meanwhile Sui Han.... their performances just fly by, i actually whoop and woot at the screen... and i never want them to stop.

VenusHalley said:

To me T/M are technically great... but so boring to watch. Even their Candyman was boring (actually it was odd combination of annoying and boring). This year it is just technically brilliant dullness. They check the bulletpoints, but I am looking at the clock...

Meanwhile Sui Han.... their performances just fly by, i actually whoop and woot at the screen... and i never want them to stop.

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See it's almost the opposite for me, I don't find Sui and Han boring, I'm very impressed by them, especially Han he's so small but still can throw Sui like no-one's business.

However if I had to pick who to watch I'd pick T/M!

Tastes differ, but in this case Sui/Han are so loved that if you happen to perfer T/M more people act like you have some sort mental deficiency.

I think T/M absolutely deserve high scores in SS. Their basic skating is great. I think many people are amazed by the technical skill of all of Mozer’s teams but we just don’t like the programs. Also, unlike V/T and S/K ( who also had less than pleasing programs) T/M don’t necessarily have that “it” factor. However, I love them. Their lines are beautiful. I thought they absolutely deserved their lead after the short.

But, Sui/Han just have such a strong long program and T/M’s long program is just a bit flat. ( I think T/M’s short is great). As a result, Sui/ Han will win if both teams go clean. Sui/ Han perform with their entire body and all their energy, T/M skate well.

I really wish Mozer and Moskvina would work together. Mozer knows how to teach great technique. Moskvina knows how to make her teams sparkle and gives them great programs. (B/K .. so easy to love) if they pooled their talents their teams would dominate.

I was disappointed by Peng/Jin not being deservedly scored as 3rd place and I think the tech calls and judging of the SBS jumps was very incorrect here between them and Zabiiako/Enbert. Peng got a < call on her Salchow when the skate was clearly past the 1/4 mark of where the takeoff started; it was just a very stumpy landing and she also had to put the free foot down hard. Their unison and timing to the music was really good on it though.

So then looking at Z/E, they are out of sync on the jump and also Enbert heavily pre-rotates his Salchow; this is the one that should have been called underrotated! He doesn't land backwards and has a 3/4 turn on the takeoff - that is an underrotated jump. The way he cheats the entrance and swings it around so much is in fact part of what makes them so out of sync here! She is up spinning in the air while he is still on the ground. This definitely should have been -GOE from the judges and yet most of them were positive, actually very positive, up to a +3 from one judge??? That is a farce.

Z/E are a bit more in sync on the 3Toe combo, but still not entirely on the same timing, and they are also quite far apart here, and she doesn't have full control of the final jump. This should be viewed as a 0 GOE element, which one judge gave, but all of the other judges were again very positive. The quality is not being evaluated properly. Peng/Jin were perfectly in sync on their 3Toe combo.

This feeling of not being connected characterizes most of Z/E's partnership for me and especially their movement to the music. It's too superficial, if it's ever even happening at all, mostly feeling like a tech drill. A few flourishes are thrown in to make it seem like they are performing, but the intent and care is not there. Look at the ending of the program for example and how they just stand there doing nothing with the music (as it still plays), nothing with each other, or even any choreography. This is not what should be happening in a skating performance at the elite level. They do have pretty good basic skating and some fine lines, but there's not a real program here. Also, her air position in the throw 3Flip is wonky and should not be scoring +3's, as it did from the majority of the judges.

GGFan said:

T/M have work to do as does every team. Connection to each other and to the audience is something they can improve upon. I've also critiqued the Moser school more generally for not creating compelling material and packaging. Anyone who thought Candyman was a good vehicle for them (and I mean the coaches) needs to do some work.

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Evgenia does make an effort to relate to the music, the audience and her partner, but it is Vladimir who is a department store dummy in that department. IMO, he seems totally concentrated on the athletics and is absent otherwise. I'm not sure after all their years together that anything will change as far as he is concerned. He just isn't a 'performer' and only some concentrated training such as acting classes could possibly make any difference.

GGFan said:

I think you may be referring to a vocal minority. I don't view the situation as damned if they do, damned if they don't. I think the more accurate picture of what I've seen in GS is folks acknowledging their breathtaking technique and skating skills, but feeling that their material doesn't connect.

A lot of us want to feel something when we watch skating and for whatever reason T/M have not managed to convert their pristine technique to engaging programs. There's nothing uniquely Russian about that because we've had many Russian teams sweep us off our feet.

T/M have work to do as does every team. Connection to each other and to the audience is something they can improve upon. I've also critiqued the Moser school more generally for not creating compelling material and packaging. Anyone who thought Candyman was a good vehicle for them (and I mean the coaches) needs to do some work.

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But what I was trying to say is that I do find them and their programs engaging though Candyman I agree was a mistake. But yes, of course T/M should try to improve and I'm sure they will.