Worlds: Men's FS

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 26, 2019

^And the 3S on the Euler series.

But yeah... overall, Nathan's jumps were of higher quality than Hanyu's who didn't perform them with the flow and confidence he is capable of. Nathan's PCS isn't even close to as bad as certain folks say it is, but they're entitled to their opinion of how jumps should be assessed and PCS should be doled out. The system is the system that determines results and medals, and that's what skaters should truly care about.

One more point - kudos to both Chen and Hanyu for putting all their combos at the end. Super risky (a misstep on the first jump costs GOE on that, plus BV if the combo/seq is unable to be executed).... it takes real confidence and stamina to pull that off.

xeyra · Mar 26, 2019

oatmella said:
Honestly this 'If Yuzu ...' seems as pointless as the 'If Nathan ...' from last year's Olympics, which I assume most agree was an argument with flawed logic as well.

Thank you! This thread is giving me a headache.

Congrats to all the medallists and bring on WTT!

Mathman · Mar 26, 2019

Mrs. P said:
Did the nationals scoring possibly influence the judging, even subconsciously? I don't know. But just throwing it up there as a discussion point.

In general (not specifically for Nathan in 2019) I have often wondered about this. Are international judges impressed by sky high scores at national championships, or do they just laugh at them like we usually do on skating fan boards?

I think it is something like the pervasive culture in the bad old days: Everybody cheats, so everybody else has to cheat too just to keep up. (Thus it's not really cheating, it is just leveling the playing field.

)

But I also think that the idea of a clear and indisputable winner comes into play. In both men's and ladies', quite a few posters here are saying, OK Nathan (Alina) won, but he (she) shouldn't have been that far ahead of everyone else. In both cases the winner was next to last to skate and their chief rivals had already skated. I think there is a tendency for the judges to go, Well, Nathan (Alina) is clearly the champion, so there is no reason to hold back on the scores now.

It is like back in the ordinal era. If you were the last to skate and you were obviously the winner in the opinions of the judges, here comes the rain of 6.0s.

SNAKSuyun · Mar 26, 2019

Mathman said:
In general (not specifically for Nathan in 2019) I have often wondered about this. Are international judges impressed by sky high scores at national championships, or do they just laugh at them like we usually do on skating fan boards?

I think it is something like the pervasive culture in the bad old days: Everybody cheats, so everybody else has to cheat too just to keep up. (Thus it's not really cheating, it is just leveling the playing field. )

But I also think that the idea of a clear and indisputable winner comes into play. In both men's and ladies', quite a few posters here are saying, OK Nathan (Alina) won, but he (she) shouldn't have been that far ahead of everyone else. In both cases the winner was next to last to skate and their chief rivals had already skated. I think there is a tendency for the judges to go, Well, Nathan (Alina) is clearly the champion, so there is no reason to hold back on the scores now.

It is like back in the ordinal era. If you were the last to skate and you were obviously the winner in the opinions of the judges, here comes the rain of 6.0s.

I dunno, I feel like Sui/Han could have been further ahead, considering they skated after T/M who had a few scratchy moments in the long...

Blades of Passion · Mar 26, 2019

DSQ said:
Hanyu’s best skill imo is his transitions look effortless and relevant to the jump and music accent that he’s skating. Also good edges and skating skills.

But arm movement and performance... he is good. Better than most skaters but he has a real tightness to his upper body yet his arms are a bit loose. His posture isn’t the best, Uno and Brown are more accomplished that way.

Any performance/skater has room for improvement somewhere and the point is supposed to be ascertaining the level of difference between the competitors. Hanyu's attention to detail of the body position is considerably stronger than Nathan's, and he was easily the best performer out there and had the most musicality of anything we saw. Uno and Brown were all over the place and had programs that lacked a real emotional transference, whereas Hanyu was visibly trying to create many moments and live the feeling of the whole piece. Nathan has improved somewhat from last year, but that doesn't mean he should be in the 9's on PCS; I don't see emotional depth from him and his movement is not with the music a significant amount of time, nor especially creative. There are a few apparent moments in the program where the choreographer did try to insert meaningful movement, but Nathan never brings them to fruition, he passes through them too quickly instead of completing the idea.

DSQ said:
As for GOE I’m confused. Other than the 4F Nathan’s jumps were textbook.

. Textbook jumps would get more amplitude than what Nathan has (aside from the 4Lz) and they would finish in the air and then descend onto the ice with a smooth exiting edge and strong posture. Literally all of Nathan's jumps ride up on the blade when he lands (you can see snow flying) and he often has a lazy free leg and/or drooping posture and/or isn't able to hold the landing edge out. You can even hear the difference on the landing sometimes, it "scratches" rather than "swooshes".

century2009 · Mar 26, 2019

Looking over all the competitions, Nathan basically owns the 4F, 4Lz and 4T (the combination as well, and that 3Lz+3T).

He records the highest jump GOEs and has the best execution. He makes it so easy and effortless. It is like he can do it in his sleep.

The 4Lz at Worlds and National.
The 4F at GPF and National.
The 4Ts at Worlds and National.

Are all insanely done well (I can't get over that 4Lz st Worlds. It was incredible).

And pretty impressed with Nathan's 3A because it usually gives him trouble and he turned it around to be now a very solid strong jump for him with no falls at all.

Next year I would like the 4S back and maybe a year later the 4L back. But, he doesn't really need it given what his top competitors are doing (Hanyu and Shoma).

I think Nathan is a very smart competitor and when he sees something not working right for him, and how his competitors are doing, he will adjust.

It was a wise decision for the 4Lz in the Short when he was having a bit fo trouble with the 4F.

He moves around his many quad jumps, and creates a layout to take advantage his strength at the moment with the competition.

ladyjane · Mar 26, 2019

As a lover of the loop, I do miss it in Nathan's programmes. I hope he will execute it in the future. It's one of the reasons why Yuzu is my beloved. No discussion at all about who whould win or get more points. I'm totally satisfied with the outcome. Totally deserved for Nathan. But I do like a quad loop and a quad toe loop-triple axel sequence. Might not get the points. But these are so interesting....

gizmo · Mar 26, 2019

Mrs. P said:
Just to shake up the discussion a bit: I had the opportunity to watch the Fuji coverage of Worlds this time around (god bless people and their feeds!) One thing that struck me was how much Japanese television mentioned/posted Nathan's Nationals score. I don't understand Japanese so I don't know the full context, but the fact is that number showed up a lot on Fuju TV's coverage. I found that interesting.

It did seem like even if you didn't agree with the exact number or whether or not you thought it was inflated, the Fuji television folks (who had skaters on like Akiko Suzuki and Takahiko Mura) felt the need to mention or talk about it.

A lot of folks seem to downplay nationals inflation scoring -- it's nationals, they say -- but the fact is that Nathan didn't score that far off here. He was 19 points away (323 vs. 342). That sounds a like a lot but really in the big scheme of things, it's actually much closer.

Did the nationals scoring possibly influence the judging, even subconsciously? I don't know. But just throwing it up there as a discussion point.

.

Yes I do think the Nationals scoring does serve as some base for inflation of scores here

Nathan Chen's PCS (FS) this season
GP US 90.94
GP FRA 87.7
GP Final 88.64 (Fall)
US Nats 98.5
WC 94.78

Vincent Zhou's PCS (FS) this season
US Classic 74.3
Tallin 79.2
GP US 76.5
GP JPN 75.86
US Nats 86.28
4CC 83.48
WC 87.28

The increase certainly happens after Nationals, and please note that Vincent Zhou's PCS is even higher than US Nats.

TontoK · Mar 26, 2019

gizmo said:
Yes I do think the Nationals scoring does serve as some base for inflation of scores here

Nathan Chen's PCS (FS) this season
GP US 90.94
GP FRA 87.7
GP Final 88.64 (Fall)
US Nats 98.5
WC 94.78

Vincent Zhou's PCS (FS) this season
US Classic 74.3
Tallin 79.2
GP US 76.5
GP JPN 75.86
US Nats 86.28
4CC 83.48
WC 87.28

The increase certainly happens after Nationals, and please note that Vincent Zhou's PCS is even higher than US Nats.

My concern with your analysis is this:

Don't we expect skaters to improve their programs over the course of a season? Is there any question that Nathan's higher PCS scores came at competitions where he skated his best?

From Nathan's very first performance on the GP this season to the World Championships, his PCS improved a whopping 4%.

Considering how much better the last competition was from the first, that doesn't seem like a case of runaway inflation. US Nationals... sure, make that case if you want. But on the international stage? I don't see it.

As for Vincent - I won't run the numbers - but again, is there any question that his WC performances were miles ahead of where he was at previous international competitions?

Program Components are not some locked in element that won't change whether the skater improves or not. Theoretically, and in this case your examples verify, that better programs get better PCS.

oatmella · Mar 26, 2019

Vincent skated his best ever FS though at Worlds. The B.ESP guys were so complimentary of his performance (and also his SP). I know it may hard for people who don’t like him to see - but he improved a lot over the season and since past season.

Nathan also skated WAY better at Nationals and Worlds than at his previous events this season. The improvement in his skates over the season was tremendous, thus the far higher scores.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 26, 2019

It should be noted that Chen was far superior in pretty much every way at Worlds compared to the rest of his season. The PCS should have been the best it was all season although probably more around 93.5-94, IMO.

TontoK · Mar 26, 2019

oatmella said:
Vincent’s skated his best ever FS though at Worlds. The B.ESP guys were so complimentary of his skate, and I know it may hard for people who don’t like him to see - but he improved a lot over the season and since past season.

Nathan also skated WAY better at Nationals and Worlds than at his previous events this season. The improvement in his skates over the season was tremendous, thus the far higher scores.

I endorse this post.

I've liked Vincent's gutsy technical approach for a couple of years, but the World Championships are the first time I've enjoyed his skating beyond the jumps.

One of the threads mentioned that he had been working with someone I don't really know... I'm not so large of a fan that I follow every coach and choreographer... but anyway, this person is a PCS expert of some renown. So, the way I see it, he had/has a weakness in his skating which he took action to address. The scores reflected the improvement.

If there's a scandal here, someone is going to have to help me see it.

oatmella · Mar 26, 2019

Seems that some won’t be pleased unless their non-favorite skaters, even if they show great improvement and better performances, have their PCS held down.

TontoK · Mar 26, 2019

Mathman said:
In general (not specifically for Nathan in 2019) I have often wondered about this. Are international judges impressed by sky high scores at national championships, or do they just laugh at them like we usually do on skating fan boards?

My speculation is that the international judges don't care, and national federations know they don't care, and it doesn't matter.

In many way, the National Championships are how the federations promote the sport among the general public. They want the high scores to generate excitement among the public. "Hey, look! The next star! Scored as high as the Olympic Champion!"

I think this is also the rationale for the general lack of UR calls, a practice I vehemently disagree with.

moonvine · Mar 26, 2019

Can I shed some tears for Jason here? And Keegan? And I now have a new fave, Peter James Hallam of GB, who bounded off the ice exclaiming "That was the most incredible moment of my life" or some such. He was SO CLOSE to making the Free Skate. And yes, he's not the BEST skater (but one of the best in the world, yes?) but I love Valtter Virtanen - the skater AND DOCTOR. And oof at Donovan Carillo not making the free skate. Ok, yall can now return to your scheduled Hanyu/Nathan arguments.

TontoK · Mar 26, 2019

moonvine said:
Can I shed some tears for Jason here? And Keegan? And I now have a new fave, Peter James Hallam of GB, who bounded off the ice exclaiming "That was the most incredible moment of my life" or some such. He was SO CLOSE to making the Free Skate. And yes, he's not the BEST skater (but one of the best in the world, yes?) but I love Valtter Virtanen - the skater AND DOCTOR. And oof at Donovan Carillo not making the free skate. Ok, yall can now return to your scheduled Hanyu/Nathan arguments.

I love skaters from less heralded federations. I always root for them a little bit. I'm going to see if I can find Mr Hallam's SP from World's, as I haven['t seen it, and that sounds like a moment.

Mrs. P · Mar 26, 2019

TontoK said:
One of the threads mentioned that he had been working with someone I don't really know... I'm not so large of a fan that I follow every coach and choreographer... but anyway, this person is a PCS expert of some renown. So, the way I see it, he had/has a weakness in his skating which he took action to address. The scores reflected the improvement.

Mie Hamada, who coaches Rika Kihira and Satoko Miyahara.

oatmella said:
Seems that some won’t be pleased unless their non-favorite skaters, even if they show great improvement and better performances, have their PCS held down.

I think there's room to discuss whether the performance merits the magnitude of the PCS increase. I don't think that discussing that aspect means you are hating the skater.

I do think judges were reacting to a cleanish program, and that boosted Vincent's scores a bit. I wouldn't have put him at 87, personally, but considering Kolyada got only a tad more for a cleanish (and better skated) Carmen, I think PCS of maybe 84 or 85 would have been more appropriate.

And i'd put Jason down a few points too since he definitely wasn't clean, definitely farther below Misha.

moonvine · Mar 26, 2019

TontoK said:
I love skaters from less heralded federations. I always root for them a little bit. I'm going to see if I can find Mr Hallam's SP from World's, as I haven['t seen it, and that sounds like a moment.

He was ONE AWAY from making the FS! Next year!

TontoK · Mar 27, 2019

moonvine said:
He was ONE AWAY from making the FS! Next year!

Oh, I'm rooting for him! I know we get wrapped up over the medal standings, but sport is also about this. So obviously proud to have made the WC, and thrilled to present his program. And I must say his 3Z-3T combo was special.

So everyone, stop what you're doing and watch, all the way through the Kiss and Cry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHU1iuPgKhY

SNAKSuyun · Mar 27, 2019

TontoK said:
My concern with your analysis is this:

Don't we expect skaters to improve their programs over the course of a season? Is there any question that Nathan's higher PCS scores came at competitions where he skated his best?

From Nathan's very first performance on the GP this season to the World Championships, his PCS improved a whopping 4%.

Considering how much better the last competition was from the first, that doesn't seem like a case of runaway inflation. US Nationals... sure, make that case if you want. But on the international stage? I don't see it.

As for Vincent - I won't run the numbers - but again, is there any question that his WC performances were miles ahead of where he was at previous international competitions?

Program Components are not some locked in element that won't change whether the skater improves or not. Theoretically, and in this case your examples verify, that better programs get better PCS.

A part of the concern is that Jin Boyang worked very hard from 2016 - his first senior season - all the way up to the Pyeongchang Olympics (that's 2 years) and was mostly clean, landing a ton of quads (including the quad lutz that started the high BV quad madness), getting two Worlds bronzes and a 4CC silver, and working on his performance and SS the entire time, aaaaaand the highest PCS he ever got in that entire period of two years was like, a 86. (He had a 85.76 at the Olympics, his last really good competition, at the end of that good 2 year stretch.) He gained 10 points in PCS from his 2016 bronze to his 2017 bronze and that was seen as unprecedented - and now Vincent's gone and gained 13 in one season with one World bronze. Say that Boyang's not as artistic as Nathan, but plenty of people were thinking of him and Vincent as being on similar tiers of artistry. Heck, at the Olympics only one year ago, Vincent was trailing Boyang by a lot in PCS, and although Vincent has a good free program this year compared to Boyang's rather bland free, I don't think their artistry gap has closed that quickly to the point that now Vincent is leading by 4.5 points.

TL;DR I'm not opposed to people getting PCS increases as they improve, but I do get the sense that some people are seeing their PCS increase faster than others, and some people have a PCS cushion for when they bomb when others don't. Maybe Vincent's PCS will drop back like Boyang's if he doesn't have a smooth riding season next season, but I kind of doubt it. We'll see.

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