- Joined
- May 28, 2019
Oh, but here it is. Just like in the kindergarten kids counter with "Oh? ...And your momma is fat!" kind of argument
2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating
- Thread starter Spirals for Miles
- Start date
Oh, but here it is. Just like in the kindergarten kids counter with "Oh? ...And your momma is fat!" kind of argument
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2018
Oh, more opinions presented as facts. Nice! Can you provide an analysis why my assessment of your opinion is not correct? And then I shall make the same of yours, going even further. Splendid. Truly.
No, I guess, in all seriousness, I wasn‘t saying your opinion was right or wrong, I don‘t care enough to try and prove that. I was saying your opinion was just that... an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. You can back it up with arguments and it‘s nice if you do - makes for an interesting read. But the ultimate truth? No one has that. And nope, I‘m sorry, no “analysis“ (that consists mostly of pictures taken at convenient angles but not the point here) will prove that Anna‘s quad was 100% underrotated/rotated and quite the same can be said for Alysa. This is, to a certain degree, subjective. Otherwise there would be no room for arguments at all, would there?
I do agree, of course, that my opinion on quads in general has nothing to do with whether your opinion was wrong or not. If you had read correctly, however, you might have realised that I wasn’t putting the two things in correlation anyway, I was explaining why I won’t provide my own heavily slowed down gifs (sorry, ”analysis“) because I frankly don’t care enough. I just don’t like the double standards some of you display - going after one girl, heavily criticizing her but being upset when some of the same arguments are being made for the girl you prefer.
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2018
Oh, but here it is. Just like in the kindergarten kids counter with "Oh? ...And your momma is fat!" kind of argument
And this comment just showed me why I avoided this thread in the last few days.
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2018
- Country
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I think that the discourse of UR or non-UR may stop when we all receive reliable evidence in the form of super high-quality videos from several cameras with super slow mo. What we will NEVER get. Therefore, I do not see any reason in discussing this after the judges rated them. However, everyone will have an opinion and may complain, attack or defend.
And I will also to do it.
And I will also to do it.
Oh, more opinions presented as facts. Nice! Can you provide an analysis why my assessment of your opinion is not correct? And then I shall make the same of yours, going even further. Splendid. Truly.
No, I guess, in all seriousness, I wasn‘t saying your opinion was right or wrong, I don‘t care enough to try and prove that. I was saying your opinion was just that... an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. You can back it up with arguments and it‘s nice if you do - makes for an interesting read. But the ultimate truth? No one has that. And nope, I‘m sorry, no “analysis“ (that consists mostly of pictures taken at convenient angles but not the point here) will prove that Anna‘s quad was 100% underrotated/rotated and quite the same can be said for Alysa. This is, to a certain degree, subjective. Otherwise there would be no room for arguments at all, would there?
I do agree, of course, that my opinion on quads in general has nothing to do with whether your opinion was wrong or not. If you had read correctly, however, you might have realised that I wasn’t putting the two things in correlation anyway, I was explaining why I won’t provide my own heavily slowed down gifs (sorry, ”analysis“) because I frankly don’t care enough. For the records, I actually somewhat agree with you - Anna‘s quad looked much better to me than Alysa‘s. (To my eye they were both UR but again, not the point here lol) Is that the ultimate truth, though? No. I just don’t like the double standards some of you display - going after one girl, heavily criticizing her but being upset when some of the same arguments are being made for the girl you prefer.
When you doubt about an opinion, or call an opinion "only an opinion", then you should provide in what way that opinion is not solid. If we keep figure skating, would you call every single claim "this jump was clean" by the words "but that is just your opinion"? Or somehow just in this particular case it is an opinion? Or can you admit that people can support their opinions/claims by evidence? It is a good thing to doubt things and verify, but when there is a verification (and if you claim you have read it all then you couldn't miss both video, pictures and analysis), in my view when somebody wants to reject it just as opinions, he should point out where it is wrong, otherwise pure claim "it is only your opinion" without any valid support has no value. If on my side is the evidence that was in no way proved wrong, I can claim that Anna's clean quad is fact.
You've put your claim about "quad liking" into the reaction on my comment that was related to the question whether quad was clean or not. You've chosen this particular occasion to announce the world that you don't like quadswhile I believe that when ladies quads are the frequented topic for at least last two years you could have make such statement on much more fitting occasions than the debate whether one particular quad was clean or not.
I think that the discourse of UR or non-UR may stop when we all receive reliable evidence in the form of super high-quality videos from several cameras with super slow mo. What we will NEVER get. Therefore, I do not see any reason in discussing this after the judges rated them. However, everyone will have an opinion and may complain, attack or defend.
And I will also to do it.
Sounds good but I've never met such situation that just in such particular case any positive opinion about whether someone's jump was clean was doubted so desperately by stating "but that is only your opinion". I doubt that this is the birth a common practise where everytime everyone would call any positive opinion about clean jump "that is just your opinion".
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2018
There was a hook on the landing in Anna‘s quad. Same for Alysa‘s but hers was even more obvious. That‘s why I can see arguments being made about both of them being UR to a certain degree. I‘m not knowledgeable enough to say that either one is 100% UR or not. Some people provided arguments on why the hook doesn‘t matter and showed angles. It was an interesting read for sure. Others said the opposite. The same here. In the end, it‘s still subjective to a degree and people can argue all they want about it, in the end the judges decided. It’s not always fair and discussions are good for sure. I just didn‘t understand how you could be so dead sure your opinion was the right one when in fact, no one can. And yes, you can ”claim“ Anna‘s quad is clean, good for you. I won‘t disagree here because I simply do not know. But I can say that your claim doesn‘t have to be the truth and when some disagree with you, it‘s not right to act as if they simply lied and you knew all the facts. That’s all. I won’t argue further. Everyone can choose what they want to believe.
Thanks for telling me that you would have found a different occasion for my comment more fitting. Don’t see what that has anything more to do with my “announcing“ of whether I liked quads or not but okay. You do you, I guess. :agree:
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2016
Please please please, where are the mods to stop all this nonsense?!?!
- Joined
- May 28, 2019
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2019
Who benefits from the idea of Tutberidze's girls 'skating like juniors'?
Yesterday’s interview with coach Polina Shyelepen, a very interesting media because she is a former student of Tutberidze, in which she allowed herself the expression “completely juniorish” and comments on judge's arbitrariness in Lombardy, that yesterday’s junior skaters had enough and so many points, which led to interesting thoughts. And who benefits from all this?
First of all, I want to ask the same Shyelepen, if from her point of view the skating of Sasha and Anya is so 'juniorish', how does she evaluate the skating of our men? Once they have learned to stay upright?
Why was Medvyedeva not condemned over her age in 2016, after winning in Boston with even more “juniorish skating”, which was much simpler in terms of connections, choreography, sliding? Maybe we will recount her score and give her less so the truth will triumph and the mature Ashley Wagner will win?
Double standards are also very strange when one seriously talks about Kostornaya’s divine skating, which should receive high components, while at the same time trying to convince everyone that Shcherbakova and Trusova, who together with her are going into seniors, have not earned anything yet. How then to get Kostornaya high components? She just didn’t deserve them either. Same 'yesterday's junior'.
This idea of "Juniors do not deserve", they have not earned it yet, is not new. We saw the same thing already in the example of Zagitova in the Olympic season.
And we heard later. More of the same. And that we love Zhenya more, and about cutting the tab to this upstart, and about this one day wonder, and about the fact she's going from dirt to riches. And the lament that the federation simply passed by Zhenya, giving her small components. What are these small figures? This many tenths even Hanyu never received a single skate.
Now they are trying to apply the same scenario to Shcherbakova and Trusova. What for? Because pushing for a higher level in component is very logical. And in the interests of rivals. The same Medvyedeva and Tuktamysheva. But it’s worth asking yourself a question, why are their components better?
The peculiarity of the choreography of Lisa lies in its absence. Therefore, she can freely ride on two legs from side to side and jump trixels. And go into these vaunted perfect jumps on the double. So much easier to do. Why would they not work out in her case? With Zhenya's choreography, Zhulin has already told everything. Calling what we saw 'minimalism'. It even would be very funny if it were not so sad. But it should be noted that she still has at least some attempts to diversify her program with steps. Probably in the old memory of her time with Tutberidze. The best coaches have so far failed to completely eradicate this from her programs. But there is a problem with her skating routine which is noticeable for example in the last season, where from the first starts to the World Championships the number of connections has sharply declined.
Somewhere, Valiyeva is also being carefully prepared for something like that, calling her ideal splits 'plunky'. It’s also funny somewhere to call the athlete’s strongest point “too much of it.” This is the same as telling Tuktamysheva: “Somehow, Lisa, you have lots of triksels in your program, because of this it looks unbalanced, you best flip something around”. It's like telling Chen there are a lot of quads, can you diversify into doubles for balance?
The idea of speculation by components exists also in Tursynbayeva for example, whose body isn't according to Zhulin's preferences. How appearance is becoming the leading criterium in determining the skill and difficulty of sliding is perhaps understandable. After all, there is simply no way to find faults in objective things, such as weak connections.
What is happening now in relation to Trusova and Shcherbakova, is obviously only a miserable attempt to keep yesterday's juniors components. It’s time to release this word “junior” from them. These are girls who compete in senior competitions. With a much more mature technical and choreographic level than the ex-world champions, and even than our men.
I would like to see honest refereeing this season, and not hear experts that are interesting to the world only because they've once worked with Tutberidze, talking about who did not deserve what. There should be no merit in sports. Come off your pedestal, you nobody. Start all over again.
We are also waiting for some responsibility from the so-called experts for deliberate misinformation about the underrotation of the Lutz-Rittberger of the same Shcherbakova in the cascade. If you affirm something, be able to justify and prove it.
Dracaris!
----
From: https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/zimazi/2574582.html
Yesterday’s interview with coach Polina Shyelepen, a very interesting media because she is a former student of Tutberidze, in which she allowed herself the expression “completely juniorish” and comments on judge's arbitrariness in Lombardy, that yesterday’s junior skaters had enough and so many points, which led to interesting thoughts. And who benefits from all this?
First of all, I want to ask the same Shyelepen, if from her point of view the skating of Sasha and Anya is so 'juniorish', how does she evaluate the skating of our men? Once they have learned to stay upright?
Why was Medvyedeva not condemned over her age in 2016, after winning in Boston with even more “juniorish skating”, which was much simpler in terms of connections, choreography, sliding? Maybe we will recount her score and give her less so the truth will triumph and the mature Ashley Wagner will win?
Double standards are also very strange when one seriously talks about Kostornaya’s divine skating, which should receive high components, while at the same time trying to convince everyone that Shcherbakova and Trusova, who together with her are going into seniors, have not earned anything yet. How then to get Kostornaya high components? She just didn’t deserve them either. Same 'yesterday's junior'.
This idea of "Juniors do not deserve", they have not earned it yet, is not new. We saw the same thing already in the example of Zagitova in the Olympic season.
And we heard later. More of the same. And that we love Zhenya more, and about cutting the tab to this upstart, and about this one day wonder, and about the fact she's going from dirt to riches. And the lament that the federation simply passed by Zhenya, giving her small components. What are these small figures? This many tenths even Hanyu never received a single skate.
Now they are trying to apply the same scenario to Shcherbakova and Trusova. What for? Because pushing for a higher level in component is very logical. And in the interests of rivals. The same Medvyedeva and Tuktamysheva. But it’s worth asking yourself a question, why are their components better?
The peculiarity of the choreography of Lisa lies in its absence. Therefore, she can freely ride on two legs from side to side and jump trixels. And go into these vaunted perfect jumps on the double. So much easier to do. Why would they not work out in her case? With Zhenya's choreography, Zhulin has already told everything. Calling what we saw 'minimalism'. It even would be very funny if it were not so sad. But it should be noted that she still has at least some attempts to diversify her program with steps. Probably in the old memory of her time with Tutberidze. The best coaches have so far failed to completely eradicate this from her programs. But there is a problem with her skating routine which is noticeable for example in the last season, where from the first starts to the World Championships the number of connections has sharply declined.
Somewhere, Valiyeva is also being carefully prepared for something like that, calling her ideal splits 'plunky'. It’s also funny somewhere to call the athlete’s strongest point “too much of it.” This is the same as telling Tuktamysheva: “Somehow, Lisa, you have lots of triksels in your program, because of this it looks unbalanced, you best flip something around”. It's like telling Chen there are a lot of quads, can you diversify into doubles for balance?
The idea of speculation by components exists also in Tursynbayeva for example, whose body isn't according to Zhulin's preferences. How appearance is becoming the leading criterium in determining the skill and difficulty of sliding is perhaps understandable. After all, there is simply no way to find faults in objective things, such as weak connections.
What is happening now in relation to Trusova and Shcherbakova, is obviously only a miserable attempt to keep yesterday's juniors components. It’s time to release this word “junior” from them. These are girls who compete in senior competitions. With a much more mature technical and choreographic level than the ex-world champions, and even than our men.
I would like to see honest refereeing this season, and not hear experts that are interesting to the world only because they've once worked with Tutberidze, talking about who did not deserve what. There should be no merit in sports. Come off your pedestal, you nobody. Start all over again.
We are also waiting for some responsibility from the so-called experts for deliberate misinformation about the underrotation of the Lutz-Rittberger of the same Shcherbakova in the cascade. If you affirm something, be able to justify and prove it.
Dracaris!
----
From: https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/zimazi/2574582.html
:thumbsup:
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2014
They have to sleep too. They can't see everything. But what in particular is upsetting you Blue?
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2014
Among others, this board benefits. There were 1072 pages in the last year Russian ladies thread. I am sure that it was the all time record. This time we already have 420 pages being in the middle of September. 1500 pages? Easily, even after mods delete bickering sessions.
Perhaps, but I just checked out last year's thread and on today's date was already 424 pages https://goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?71644-2018-19-Russian-Ladies-figure-skating/page424
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2014
What is different, though,what makes this season special is that traditional lines do not work like before.
1. Eteri is only good with pre-puberty girls. Alina is clearly past puberty now. What is left is to say that Alina "is done". But it looks like it's not the case at least for this season.
2. Eteri's pupils skate too juniorish This one - "sonograms" - is still here. However, no matter how some people try to push the idea that "what about" is a wrong philosophical platform I don't agree. "What about?" is a very relevant concept because there are few absolute things in this world. And to get the flavor of reality we have to compare. Then, what about Alysa Liu, the senior US champion? This one makes a lot of people see things in perspective. Including Ashley Wagner who seems to be quite protective about Alysa and does not attach labels to her like she did with young Russians.
3. Eteri makes them jump quads and this is bad for young bodies Alysa is the only real non-Russian contender among the juniors and Rika is the only real non-Russian contender among senior skaters. Both either have quads or plan to introduce them. Both have quite young bodies. The argument that only Eteri's students bodies are affected by quads will be too wild even for the most decorated critics.
I am sure that critics will never stop. However, traditional arguments won't sound as "convincing" as before, hence, there will be subtler ones. Like "Valieva is overdoing her spins". Anyway, we shall have a lot of fun in this thread.
- - - Updated - - -
You cannot compare. Last year summer was just about Medvedeva's going to Orser.
1. Eteri is only good with pre-puberty girls. Alina is clearly past puberty now. What is left is to say that Alina "is done". But it looks like it's not the case at least for this season.
2. Eteri's pupils skate too juniorish This one - "sonograms" - is still here. However, no matter how some people try to push the idea that "what about" is a wrong philosophical platform I don't agree. "What about?" is a very relevant concept because there are few absolute things in this world. And to get the flavor of reality we have to compare. Then, what about Alysa Liu, the senior US champion? This one makes a lot of people see things in perspective. Including Ashley Wagner who seems to be quite protective about Alysa and does not attach labels to her like she did with young Russians.
3. Eteri makes them jump quads and this is bad for young bodies Alysa is the only real non-Russian contender among the juniors and Rika is the only real non-Russian contender among senior skaters. Both either have quads or plan to introduce them. Both have quite young bodies. The argument that only Eteri's students bodies are affected by quads will be too wild even for the most decorated critics.
I am sure that critics will never stop. However, traditional arguments won't sound as "convincing" as before, hence, there will be subtler ones. Like "Valieva is overdoing her spins". Anyway, we shall have a lot of fun in this thread.
- - - Updated - - -
You cannot compare. Last year summer was just about Medvedeva's going to Orser.
Last year the thread started on march 24th, this year on april 8th. Two weeks later (and still the old thread continued for some time) and we are still on nearly the same number of pages/comments.
We have to catch up! Quick, someone make an inflammatory comment about Orser and Tutberidze.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
With the first stage of the Cup of Russia this week, does anyone know when the entries will be published? I am very interested to see who will attempt to qualify for nationals at the Jr (KMS) and senior (MS) level this year.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2017
There is no list of participants at the moment on the official web site.
About whom?
