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Thread: 2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

  1. #3221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex65 View Post
    Completely abandon the assessment of the PCS, as it is now.
    I don't think that's completely neccessary, but on the other hand I don't really know how this could be solved

    Also: I edited this, I understood the meaning of the post wrong, sorry

  2. #3222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    As for the issue of all program components turning out the same, I think it would help to replace the five categories with just two: Technical Aspects of the Program as a Whole (basically the current SS and TR) and Performance Aspects of the Program as a whole (comprising the current Performance, Composition, and Interpretation.) Keep the Element Scores as they are, so many points for a triple Lutz, etc.
    This is an interesting take.

    I am pretty ok in terms of PCS because I've accepted the fact that it's biased (even in cases when you want to be objective, just as @nussnacker said about the magnificent jumps).

    However, I'd like to see ISU invest more in making TES more objective as well. Have more cameras, let the judges rewatch in slow motion, it's very important. Deduct for jumps that are full-blade take off instead of toe pick take off. There are so many ladies that have magnificent jumps including no prerotation, decent height, and usually even transitions, and they still get less than those "top" skaters. It's really unfair.

    Perhaps we should make a different thread about this, it's interesting to talk about, but not here.

  3. #3223
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    Quote Originally Posted by nussnacker View Post
    Oops, don't know if you can use that word here

    But besides that... what is fair? It might seem unfair to you, it will be fair to others.
    FS is a subjective sport, and fairness will be there for some people, and others will be running around with their 'wuzzrobbed' mantras.

    Guys, what you are talking about here are all subjective things, PCS is VERY subjective besides maybe TR, SS and CO, and even those three 'more objective' components will be a subject to subjective evaluation.
    How do you estimate if someone's transitions are 0.5 points better than other skater, and not 0.25 or 0.75? Those are subjective measurements, you just can't expect the judges to get something evaluated 'right' (or more like what you just as subjectively want it to be), it's not going to happen.
    And then that 0.25 point difference might make a crucial difference in points, we've seen many cases where skaters lose by a difference of less than a point.

    And whether you want it or not, TES will affect PCS, because technical deficiencies do detract from performance and the impression it makes on the judges. But technical superiority on contrast, makes a great impression. It's easy to say "those should be separate", but when you're watching it live and someone lands magnificent jumps, it does matter and changes on our own outlook on performances. And having two panels would've never solved that issue too imo.

    Like even with Zagitova/Medvedeva/Osmond skate off, I don't know who should've won, those were all very close imo. (to my subjective opinion, Zagitova's performances were the performance of the nights.) But obviously other people will see it differently and have their own opinions. Some will say Kaetlyn is the real OG, some will say Medvedeva,
    there's no way to define it.

    Moreover, it seems like there's no way to satisfy people: when PCS win against TES like in Lysacek/Plushenko case people will be upset. If TES wins against PCS people are upset again.

    I don't mean unfair judging doesn't happen at all, it certainly does happen and we've seen accounts of some clear fixed judging over the years.
    But overall, it certainly doesn't mean that all the judging done in so many years is wrong and all results should completely be thrown out of the window.
    If someone has magnificent jumps of course it's going to influence the program, I meant more in a way that if you had two skaters that you'd put in about the same pcs category and one has a way higher tech content, but both are clean, in my opinion it can get a little iffy, even this is a hypothetical situation.

    And to the 'what is fair' I understand that it's very hard to judge pcs and I try to be understanding but I do think that sometimes small fed skaters have a little disadvantage(not in a "wuzrobbed" way)

  4. #3224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandevska View Post
    This is an interesting take.

    I am pretty ok in terms of PCS because I've accepted the fact that it's biased (even in cases when you want to be objective, just as @nussnacker said about the magnificent jumps).

    However, I'd like to see ISU invest more in making TES more objective as well. Have more cameras, let the judges rewatch in slow motion, it's very important. Deduct for jumps that are full-blade take off instead of toe pick take off. There are so many ladies that have magnificent jumps including no prerotation, decent height, and usually even transitions, and they still get less than those "top" skaters. It's really unfair.

    Perhaps we should make a different thread about this, it's interesting to talk about, but not here.
    Corruption TES is nothing compared to corruption of the PCS . There are, of course, cases when it is not enough the exaggerated PCS , and then the judges lose their conscience completely. But these are isolated cases and we all know about them.

  5. #3225
    BUBBLE GUM ICE QUEEN <3 Vandevska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex65 View Post
    Corruption TES is nothing compared to corruption of the PCS . There are, of course, cases when it is not enough the exaggerated PCS , and then the judges lose their conscience completely. But these are isolated cases and we all know about them.
    Uf for sure. PCS are a mess.

  6. #3226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex65 View Post
    Completely abandon the assessment of the PCS, as it is now.
    Will the ISU go for that?

  7. #3227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex65 View Post
    Corruption TES is nothing compared to corruption of the PCS . There are, of course, cases when it is not enough the exaggerated PCS , and then the judges lose their conscience completely. But these are isolated cases and we all know about them.
    I actually disagree with this. PCS bias is real but the GOE on jumps/elements is often completely biased. Even worse than PCS in my opinion. When you compare the GOE top skaters receive for jumps or elements which are at best average to the GOE of lower ranked skaters with similar quality elements it is shocking.

    I like the idea of rewarding quality but judges often just give skaters high or lower GOE across the board without really accessing the quality of each element. Some skaters get postive GOE for step outs and so on.... It is a real issue.

  8. #3228
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    Quote Originally Posted by readernick View Post
    I actually disagree with this. PCS bias is real but the GOE on jumps/elements is often completely biased. Even worse than PCS in my opinion. When you compare the GOE top skaters receive for jumps or elements which are at best average to the GOE of lower ranked skaters with similar quality elements it is shocking.

    I like the idea of rewarding quality but judges often just give skaters high or lower GOE across the board without really accessing the quality of each element. Some skaters get postive GOE for step outs and so on.... It is a real issue.
    OK. Everyone has their own opinion . All the same, GOE inflation is a more obvious thing that can be more easily handled (if desired), because it is obvious even to an unpretentious viewer. At the same time, overvalued PCS are taken by many for granted and do not cause indignation, even if it is not there.

  9. #3229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott512 View Post
    Will the ISU go for that?
    I apologize for my English: I wanted to say - to change PCS sistem , because, it is now, this is 90% injustice, it based on factors not related to sports.

  10. #3230
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    Would separating PCS and GOE panels help to reduce bias? I have never judged, but the judges have to look at the element carefully, decide the GOE and select the number, so it must take some time and cause judges to miss parts of the performance.

  11. #3231
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    Let's wait and see if ISU is going to change something in the assessment field. I will be fine if they don't. No matter what they do there will be angry fans. And as for me, I see "wuzzrobbed" and "overscored" every now and then, But I don't see unfair podiums in ladies when we talk about big competitions. There are just 2 exceptions: Saitama 2014 and Boston 2016. And both times there was just 1 "victim" - Anna Pogorilaya.

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