Sasha Cohen's Programs

Re: Sasha's programs

"I've only seen Carolina Kostner skate once, so I can't really assess her consistency."

I've seen her perform 2 SPs and 3 LPs and all 5 had "mistakes". Clearly her best was Euros LP, which I call "clean" because she only doubled the planned 3r rather than the falls and/or 2foots that her other programs contained.

I would call her "consistant" at JGPF because she skated with some mistakes in both her programs while the other girls skated great in one and bombed the other.

Clearly pressure does get to her though. She skated well in the QR at Euros but botched the SP. Her Euros LP was definately her shining moment though. I assume she skated well at Junior worlds SP, as she placed 1st (didn't see it) but she clearly fell apart in the LP, probably the worst skate I've seen her have.

Anyway, back OT: I agree with whomever posted that Sasha's speed was unremarkable (neither here nor there). When I saw Irina live, twice, I was struck by her speed. She is clearly faster than most of the other Euro ladies. She's like a speed demon. I wasn't paying strict attention to Sasha's speed at Lalique, but I remember it being the same as the other top ladies. Not noticeably slower, but not noticably faster. It just was.

Re: Sasha's programs

Berthe's Ghost,
Thanks for the info on Kostner.
Rgirl

Re: Sasha's programs

Eltamina - I happen to enjoy very much the Short Programs in figure skating. They don't have to go overboard with quad combos, Bielman Spins, etc, and they are judged on flow and speed accordingly. And praise to be, they don't have to tell a dumb story. Just skate in a personal style with a lot of feeling for the music, and do it well. So when I used the term 'won' the SP, I was really thinking that the two competitions were separate. BTW, I do like the LP too.

Joe

Eltamina

Eltamina,

I PM'd you last week to try and address this gently and privately, and since I got absolutely no reply, I'm putting it out on the forum.

Ease up on the bashing!!!. I have read back over your posts, and you take advantage of every opportunity to make snide comments about Sasha and her skating. It's one thing to critique, but what you're doing far exceeds the realm of analyzing and critiquing (sp?) a skating program.

We get the point. You like Michelle and dislike Sasha. No wait, let's be honest. You hate Sasha and her skating all the way down to the very core and fiber of her being. Not only do you nit-pick every little flaw in her performances, you seize every opportunity available to attack her character or invalidate her accomplishments, and I am sick of it.

If you dislike her so much, then why do you post comments on topic threads related specifically to Sasha (and Sasha only)? Best I can tell is that you take some degree of satisfaction in spreading your vitriolic attitude around for everyone to see.

Look, it's no secret here that I really don't like MK's skating, nor am I enamored with her personality. That having been said, I don't have any sort of problem doling out Kudos to her performances when they are merited (Nats this year being one of those times). Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you would rather drive an iron stake through your skull than give Sasha one iota of credit or commendation. The difference between you and I with regard to disliking skaters is that I keep my nasty little thoughts to myself or share them with others who I know agree with me, but in a forum where there are fans of many different skaters, I keep it in check.

You, my dear, need to learn how to do this. Otherwise please go to some of the designated MK forums and slam to your heart's content. GS isn't about bashing or deliberately inflaming it's members but rather it is the best site I have found to have intelligent, insightful discussions and disagreements about the sport I love, and intentional vitriol only drags the forum down and turns off lurkers that could become members.

Like my signature says, 'Lighten Up, Frances!!!'

Good fans and bad

This is going to sound really stupid, but sometimes I find myself liking or disliking a skater because I like or dislike what some fans of this skater say on the internet. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\"> Sometimes when people gush on and on about their favorite, the :evil: in me says, "Ha, ha, I hope she falls down just to show those obnoxious fans a thing or two."

And the opposite can happen, too. When everybody starts dumping on someone, I say, "Go, go, go, girl -- prove them all wrong."

But the best is when a poster is so nice that it makes me want to start liking his/her favorite skater, too. For example, every time Kara Bear comes on board with her cute signature picture of Sasha, I want to say, "Awwww. I hope Sasha has the skate of her life at Worlds.

Mathman

PS. ...and wins the silver." :lol:

Joeistz

Nice that you enjoy the short programs, and the long programs. It is just an <strong>interesting</strong> observation. I did not say it is inappropriate or bad to say <strong>won</strong>.

In basketball, football, and golf, different teams and athelte may be leading in different quarters or rounds, but commentators usually report they have the lead into the half or the final round etc.

Re: sasha's speed

I think I might have started the Sasha's speed issue - so I should clarify, I don't think her speed is a downfall for her, but in the overall picture she is not the fastest of the top ladies, but she makes up for it in other areas where other skaters are lacking. I think all elements should be taken into account, so if they were ranked on speed, she would probably get a 6 or 7 out of 10, while Irina would probably get a 9 or 10. In other areas, Sasha would beat out Irina.

sk8cynic

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I PM'd you last week to try and address this gently and privately, and since I got absolutely no reply, I'm putting it out on the forum[/quote]

Hmmm, never received any PM from you. I am not surprise, many times the PM does not work.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you would rather drive an iron stake through your skull than give Sasha one iota of credit or commendation. Ease up on the bashing [/quote]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>seize every opportunity available to attack her character[/quote]

I don't know Sasha, I have never said anything about her character or personality. IMHO, your description of "seize every opportunity to attack her (Sasha's) character" is incorrect. (the most benign way I can say it)

I said she skated the best at GPF,and deserved her win. I am not enamored with your favorite skater's skating. I gave her credit for her GPF win. Last I check there is no stake in my skull.

pub94.ezboard.com/fgolden...D=30.topic

To me bashing is to cast doubts into skaters character, and impute the worst intentions etc onto them. I have never mentioned anything about Sasha's character. I talk about Sasha's skating, her music choice, costumes, and my definition of art. If you agree fine, disagree fine too. I disagree with you, but I do not ask/ tell you to leave GS and go elsewhere. I believe there are admins and moderators here, if the PM does not work. Of course it is your free speech right to put your opinion here too.

BTW, I love / adore many skaters, TMTC (too many to count) Sarah, AP, Jenny Kirk, the Japanese ladies, Cupcake, VV, Maria Bute, Irina, Tara and MK is not my only favorite. I root for IS to win worlds 02, and I am rooting for Sarah for gold 03.
pub94.ezboard.com/fgolden...D=12.topic

Re: Eltamina

Sk8Cynic, I was disappointed to read that you like to share your "nasty little thoughts" about Michelle's skating and "personality" on other boards where you think other posters will agree with you. "Nasty" is indeed the impression that I get from visiting some of these fan sites.

Mathman

Re: Eltamina

Let the pouncing from the Kwaniacs commence!!! :lol:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The difference between you and I with regard to disliking skaters is that I keep my nasty little thoughts to myself or share them with others who I know agree with me, but in a forum where there are fans of many different skaters, I keep it in check.

[/quote]

Mathman,

Once again, we have another example of words being misinterpreted. What part of "but in a forum where there are fans of many skaters, I keep it in check" indicates that

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> you like to share your "nasty little thoughts" about Michelle's skating and "personality" on other boards where you think other posters will agree with you.[/quote]

I'm confused. If I wasn't clear, please let me clarify. When I share my 'nasty little thoughts with others', I do it via email - and then only with someone who I know won't turn around and troll my comments on the web. I thought the next sentence made that clear, but I guess it wasn't.

In addition, I have visited fan-specific forums only a few times as I don't enjoy them. Forums that build up their own fave by tearing down rival skaters just doesn't do it for me, nor does reading the same gushfests over and order. Factor that in with the fact that I have a daughter, and I am conscious of the fact that many young, impressionable eyes see what's out there, why oh why would I do the very thing that I complain about?

Finally, I think you may be under the false impression that I have an anti-Michelle fixation. I have nasty little thoughts run through my mind all the time about most all the skaters (Sasha included in this group), so to turn this into the idea that "Cynic says nasty things about MK and doesn't mind putting it out there elsewhere" is incorrect, and quite honestly, it hurt my feelings. You may not feel your post gave that impression, but given the reactionary and assuming nature of some of MK's more obsessed and unstable fans (we all know the debate about this topic; let's not beat that dead horse), I don't want to be surrounded and submarined for something that simply isn't true.



<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Nasty" is indeed the impression that I get from visiting some of these fan sites. [/quote]

I couldn't agree with you more.......I hope to god the skaters themselves don't visit those sites. What I read there turned my stomach. I don't think I have a track record of bashing skaters and posters here at GS, in fact, I have been adamantly against it. This is my personal conviction, not hypocritical rhetoric.

Overall, maybe "nasty" wasn't the best word. Catty would probably be more appropriate, and I think that you can admit that we're all capable and guilty of being catty, be it in mind or by pen.


Hope that clears things up.

sk8cynic

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>given the reactionary and assuming nature of some of MK's more obsessed and unstable fans[/quote]

I am not trying to be inflamatory, I have seen some reactionary and assuming in this thread from a Cohen fan too.

This is just an observation, fans usually have the impression that their favorites are the most bashed, and are not given enough credit,and their least favorite skaters receive gushings ad naseum. If you agree with me fine, if you disagree fine, I am stating my opinion here at GS.

Re: sk8cynic

What's happeng here? For months we had no outbursts about MK and SC. Now suddenly it's back again, and it is not necessary. Enjoy your favorite. Hope the one you hate loses. and Get Over It.

The Worlds are coming The Worlds are coming. Nerves, Nerves.

Joe

Re: Eltamina

SkateCynic, Oh, wow, I can't believe I just made that mistake in interpreting your post. This very semester I am teaching a course in mathematical logic. I would definitely flunk my students if they thought (as I did mistakenly at first) that

"...but in a forum where there are fans of many skaters, I keep it in check."

implies the (contrapositive of the) converse:

"...in forums where there are NOT fans of many skaters (but only of one), I DON'T keep it in check."

Still, I don't understand how this topic arouses such angst, anguish and hair-tearing fury. People like who they like, don't like who they don't like, so what?

Mathman

Re: Sasha's Programs

Hi Everybody,

It sure wasn't my intention to start any *MK-SC Wars*! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT="">
I just wanted your honest views regarding the technical difficulty of Sasha's programs. I really enjoy reading other peoples POV's (or is it P'sOV? ) By asking, I hope to gain a better understanding of the sport we all love. I've been a skating fan for years but didn't concern myself (until the last couple of years) with the technical end. I faithfully watch every skating competition and show that's shown on tv because figure skating is a beautiful sport that I truly enjoy.

PS. I do have a long list of favorites too.

Lynn

Joesitz

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The Worlds are coming The Worlds are coming. Nerves, Nerves.[/quote]

Really, nerves? Joe you of all people, you went through double arthroscopic surgery in the summer. (But we sent you virtual chicken soup) You are a diplomat by profession? You were in P. Mc Bride's class, must be competitive then? Maybe nerves about making the trip from NY to DC? Driving? Amtrak? or plane?

Have a blast at worlds.
Breathe in breathe out.

Re: Sasha's Programs

Lynn -- P'sOV? :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

sk8cynic, hoping I misunderstood you

You told Eltamina to "please go to some of the designated MK forums and slam to your heart's content. GS isn't about bashing or deliberately inflaming it's members but rather it is the best site I have found to have intelligent, insightful discussions and disagreements about the sport I love, and intentional vitriol only drags the forum down and turns off lurkers that could become members."

I usually post at the MK Forum and have started posting here because it is a good board. I do have to hope that you are not referring to MKF. Bashing is not tolerated there either. We have 5,000+ members and we're bound to have a few extremes. We also get slammed regularly by trolls. Don't take the trolls or extremists as indicator of what the MKF is about.


Hope I misunderstood what board you are referring to, but the MKF is where I was introduced to these wonderful skating sites. I don't know many people in redneck TN that tolerate my passion for skating so I enjoy meeting people here.

Re: Sasha's Programs

Lynn, I must echo Mathman's :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: I love it!!!

Eltamina, I'd have to say that it's a close call as to who gets bashed more on the web, Michelle or Tara. Sasha's "meteoric" rise isn't just in skating, though (please note tongue-in-cheek sarcasm for 'meteoric') in that she her share of bashing is increasing a lot. As we have said over and over and OVER and OVER, all of the bashing is the direct result of the few fans in the skating domain that take this sport just a wee bit too seriously and let it consume their personal lives to the point that they have no life of their own. While there are many people here who are ardent fans of _______, the troll incidents here are very few and very far between. That's why I like it here. I can agree. I can disagree. And it usually doesn't go nuclear. I save that for Off Topic!!

Mathman, you said the magic word in your post. Imply. I'll add one to that: Assume. When we read posts, we all have a tendency to assume what the author's implication of that post was. I've lived this over the past week with all the non-skating stuff. This is why I can't stress enough the old motto: Say what you mean and mean what you say.

It's a great little golden rule.


I want the vitriol to abate so that we can all watch Worlds and post here next week without it being ruined by sniping. I'm willing to do my part. What about y'all?

Re: Sasha's Programs

Mathman & Cynic,

Thank You, Thank You very much (I'm bowing here :lol: )

Just thought I'd inject a little humor

Lynn

Re: Eltamina

<em>Note on the editing of this post: A great deal of this post has been edited and cut, especially the part addressed to Eltamina, because I saw that I was being a real jerk. If anybody wants to refer to the original "jerk" post, I downloaded it before any changes were made and sent it to one of the moderators, Mathman. This way what I said originally will ba available to anyone who is interested. Also, hopefully it will serve as a reminder to me to stick to GS and my own guidelines. My apologies to Eltamina for hammering her in the original. I meant to be blunt, but I didn't mean to be mean.
Rgirl</em>

Mathman,
Cynic said, "I keep my nasty little thoughts to myself or share them with others who I know agree with me."

You said, "Sk8Cynic, I was disappointed to read that you like to share your 'nasty little thoughts' about Michelle's skating and 'personality' on other boards where you think other posters will agree with you."

I think you misread what Cynic wrote.

The reason for all this is that for some time, many of us have seen Eltamina going overboard with the digs aimed at Sasha. She has said things like, "Sasha keeps ruining pieces of music for me," and names which pieces in post after post. She continually refers to Sasha as "Ms. Baby Ballerina" and to something "Baby Ballerina's rabid fans" have done. Snide remarks and sarcasm rather than overt character or personality bashing are the way things are stated, which supposedly keep them from being "bashing." Eltamina makes sure she doesn't overtly "bash" Sasha, but she says something negative about Sasha all too often. In a recent six day period, Eltamina was posting an average of two to three negative posts about Sasha a day--and those were just the ones I could verify. In this case, it's the quantity not the quality of digs that I find offensive. It's the quintiessential situation where someone goes by the letter of the law but still breaks the spirit.

Eltamina,
The way one receives private messages has changed, which was noted in the info on the change to the ezboard software update. I'm sure others have missed it too. Anyway, on the main forum page, up in the right hand corner, there is a line right under the "Logged in as _______" that says "ezInbox." Click on that and you will see your PMs. Also, Mathman's "Private Messaging" thread discusses the change in detail.

Anyway, Eltamina, you can respond to all this by taking sections out of context, misinterpreting them, and taking shots at the poster rather than address the issue, but I would hope that you would instead just ease up on the negative Sasha posts. Joe asked how things suddenly got so negative when they seemed to be going so well. IMO, you've focused on dissing Sasha since you came to GS and in the last month or so, you've really taken it up a notch. Of course you are entitled to dislike or hate any skater you want. Lots of people on GS don't like Sasha or her skating, but they don't post about it virtually every day. And they don't make snide and sarcastic remarks or refer to Cohen as "Ms. Baby Ballerina." For a while I would say something when I'd see these posts piling up, but you never responded so for about a month I just ignored them. Unfortunately, the number of Sasha-diss posts only increased.

Granted, what we have here is definitely an inappropriate way to deal with a situation like this. But you know I've tried to work things out using other ways. Still, it is true this should have been done via a moderator. I was wrong for not doing that and for that I apologize.

All we're asking, Eltamina, is that you tone it down. We all know you don't like or perhaps even hate Sasha. We get it. Of course it's your prerogative to continue, but I would appreciate it if you limited your negative comments about Sasha to those threads where discussion of a skater's strengths and weaknesses is part of the topic. And I could definitely do without the snide tone and sarcastic remarks.
Rgirl