Sasha Cohen's Programs

Re: Sasha's Programs

Lynn,
You didn't start any MK-SC war. I thought this thread was great and most posters here do enjoy exchanging their views on the strengths and weaknesses of a skater. The problem, as I see it, is that a couple of people like to use such threads to attack and deride skaters they don't like or hate and other people assume that if someone isn't praising their favorite skater to the stars that they're bashing that skater. The main problem, as I see it, is that people tend to read through favorite-skater-colored glasses. Someone writes, "I keep my nasty thoughts to myself or tell them to people I know will understand" and someone else reads it as, "I think your favorite skater is a nasty sl** and I post these thoughts on other forums."

From what I've seen, about 98% of GSers make sure their posts are positive, even when they're criticizing skaters. For me, it's the 2% who are bound and determined to be snide and sarcastic who create a disproportional amount of negativity.

You could have started a thread about the price of tickets for Worlds and certain people would have found a way to diss the skater they love to hate.

Such is life. At least we can all be thankful that these people are not our bosses:lol:

But you started a great thread. A few people tried to make it into a "hate" thread and one person in particular has been trying peoples' patience for a long time and others finally got sick of it and said so. Pretty hot thread, if you ask me Your bows are well deserved.
Rgirl

Doing the part

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm willing to do my part. What about y'all? [/quote]

OK

Re: Sasha's Programs

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Mathman, Cynic said, "I keep my nasty little thoughts to myself or share them with others who I know agree with me."

You said, "Sk8Cynic, I was disappointed to read that you like to share your 'nasty little thoughts' about Michelle's skating and 'personality' on other boards where you think other posters will agree with you."

Pretty lousy quote of what Cynic said, since that's not what she said at all. I think you read what you wanted to read."[/quote]Rgirl, Cynic said, "Look, it's no secret here that I really don't like MK's skating, nor am I enamored with her personality.... (however) I keep my nasty little thoughts to myself or share them with others who I know agree with me, but in a forum where there are fans of many different skaters, I keep it in check.

You, my dear, need to learn how to do this. Otherwise please go to some of the designated MK forums and slam to your heart's content."

Do you see my confusion? In the context of, if you want to be nasty, that's what fan sites are for, read the part in ordinary, non-bold type again.

Mathman

r181

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But then, maybe it's a genetic thing with you, hating certain people and needing to make sarcastic remarks about them over and over, kind of like obsessive-compulsive disorder, and you just can't help it. [/quote]

I am not enamored with one of your favorite skater. I have never said anything about her character, unlike someone who imputed character flaw into a skater earlier this summer. You know who you are, you have just cast your stone.

Whatever quantity you are thinking of, I promise you I won't contribute 150 out of 300 in a thread about Cohen. In this Cohen thread, I said, I have seen her life and I think her speed is OK for a senior skater, nothing to write home about.

If I haven't misunderstood you, then I say you are being <strong>inflamatory</strong>. If it you makes you feel better to diagnose others who disagree with you with a mental illness OCD, please at least look up the diagnostic criteria first. Oh.. I reread your exact wording, you said kind of like, not you have. BTW, I don't think it is fun for people to suffer from OCD, so please do not use that unfortunate mental illness as a vehicle to insult others. A simple eltamina, I hate you or whatever will be more honest, JMHO

This is my last message in this thread. You will of course have the last word.

Re: Sasha's Programs

Mathman,
I have read the parts in bold lettering and I think that's why you're confused. Instead of taking in the whole thing, I think you focused on the words that got to you emotionally because of what Cynic said about Michelle. In any case, I think Cynic was as clear as she could be in what she wrote. I think your emotions clouded your understanding. In so doing, you accused Cynic of saying something she didn't. Your confusion is not her responsibility if she is clear, which IMO she was.

Suggestion: Take out the bold lettering and read the same section tomorrow.

Probably a good suggestion for all of us
Rgirl

Re: Sasha's Programs

No, no, no! <strong>bold, bold, bold!</strong>

<strong>bold</strong>

<strong><span style="color:black;font-size:medium;">big and bold</span></strong>

Ha, ha. <strong>bold</strong>

<strong>Mathman</strong>

PS. What bold lettering? Do you see any bold lettering? <strong>I</strong> certainly don't see any bold lettering.

Re: Eltamina

<em>Like my previous post, edited to try to remove some of the "jerkness" out and overly sarcastic remarks to Eltamina. Rightly or wrongly, some sarcasm was intended. Though I still apologize to Eltamina for not doing this through a moderator.</em>

Eltamina,
I hope you will take the time to reread what was said and ask yourself why you and your posts prompted this reaction. <em>Edited to add, "For what it's worth, I've taken the time to reread and reconsider what I wrote."</em>

I don't care if you don't like Sasha. Lots of posters on GS don't like Sasha or her skating and say so. Perhaps you could ask yourself why your posts on GS about Sasha were singled out as crossing the line.

As I've said before, you've been careful not to openly attack Sasha's character, but in the name-calling and number and type of posts your write about Sasha, I think you are bashing her nonetheless. I think you know it and I think you intend it. Also, as both Cynic and I said, we're not asking you to stop; we're just asking you to tone it down. I have not a whit of a problem with you criticizing Sasha's skating, but the constant sarcasm, snide remarks, name-calling, and digs seem to me to serve no purpose other than to provide enjoyment for yourself.

I know there are people on GS who don't like Irina or Sarah's skating (just to use them as examples). They criticize them from time to time, but they also respect that there are other people on the forum who like these skaters. That's really all it comes down to: respecting the various feelings of the group.

The way you handle your future posts about Sasha is up to you, Eltamina. <em>Edited to add: The way I handle situations like this in the future is up to me.</em>
Rgirl
----------------
I see you edited your post to Cynic from "What is doing your part?" to "OK." I appreciate the reconsideration. You got a lot of hard knocks and it takes a lot to change from resistance to consideration. I will try to do my part as well.

Re: Sasha's Programs

Mathman,
<em>Bold lettering? You mean like this bold lettering?</em>
<span style="color:blue;">Or do you mean like this bold lettering?</span>
<span style="colorrange;">Wait, let me put on my glasses.</span>

<span style="color:maroon;font-family:courier;font-size:x-small;">Ah, yes. Now I see it. Bold, risky lettering.</span>
:x :x :x :x
<strong><span style="color:teal;font-family:comic sans ms;font-size:large;">Rgirl</span></strong>

Bashing

Sometimes it can be difficult to post on the message boards designed for a particular skater because of the bashing. I often post at MKF, which is usually remarkably neutral toward other skaters. Unfortunately, since Sasha's GPF win was televised and Sarah won the Sullivan, the posts have suddenly become venemous and catty. Very disappointing. Seems like a case of the green-eyed monster. 0]

I usually avoid the Sasha forums altogether. If you believed some of what is posted, you'd think Michelle Kwan was a decrepit old hag who needs a walker to move around the rink. Why is she still skating? :lol:

Re: Eltamina

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have not a whit of a problem with you criticizing Sasha's skating, but the constant sarcasm, snide remarks, name-calling, and digs infect GS with a negative vibe that seems to me to serve no purpose, other than to provide enjoyment for yourself. Since obviously we all get the point that you hate Sasha and her skating, why keep doing it unless your intention is to annoy people who like Sasha's skating? Or perhaps you just enjoy sniping at Sasha?[/quote] Well, Eltamina, I have to say that I've noticed that too. It seems that every time people start to discussing Sasha's whatever you just <em>have to</em> jump in and say how you hate this or that about her skating or Sasha herself. I think that by now everyone knows , so there's really no need to say it in every thread. I have no problem with constructive criticism, but it seems like you just hate her guts and feel compelled to say so over and over again. It does get old.

Re: Eltamina

C'mon guys -This isn't the end of the world here.

There are three top USA Ladies female skaters (and when has there not been? - that's a dig to the writer who believes only Russians dominate fs).

One is a senior citizen by skating standards, still competing, still winning contests (or losing); Two are getting on in years now and should be skating beautifully, imo. The cutsey wootsey stuff just won't do anymore. Anyone of the three should win the contest as young ladies since the other senior citizen withrew for good reasons. And it is possible that all three could lose the contest. Think about that!

As for personality. We do not know that much about anyone of these skaters unless of course we are a part of their social lives. It seems that Michelle is basically a recluse with no overt opinions about other skaters. Sasha has been outspoken about other skaters (and so what?); Sarah is the girl next door and is busy with her family life (a quiet kid).

One of them will probably be THE BEST THAT NIGHT and that's how medals will be awarded and the cookies crumble.

I really believe you can get your message across with better wording. Remember it is <span style="font-family:georgia;">NERVOUS</span>
time. In two weeks time we will be complaining about the costumes.

BTW, I will zap any further retorts by whomever in this thread.

Joesitz

Re: Eltamina

Rgirl,

Thank you for explaining what the heck happened here. I logged on after babysitting my two youngest grandbabies and was totally at a loss as to what was going on

GS is one of my favorite forums to read when I want skating info. (Insert 3 Cheers for Paula & GS!)

Generally if I come across a message anywhere on the net that reads like a bash, I may read it then shake my head, roll my eyes, talk back to my computer screen or just laugh myself silly. Thankfully I haven't been *taken away* for the last two! :rollin:

Back on topic now--I'm wondereing if the reason for TT frontloading Sasha's LP is because of Sasha's lack of stamina. I agree with you and others who have made the observations that Sasha needs to do complete run throughs of her LP's in practices in order for her to be able to complete clean jumps and combinations in her competitions. If she had had more statima, I don't think she would have had a traveling problem with some of her spins in a couple of her programs.

Lynn

Re: Sasha's Programs

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Back on topic now--I'm wondereing if the reason for TT frontloading Sasha's LP is because of Sasha's lack of stamina. I agree with you and others who have made the observations that Sasha needs to do complete run throughs of her LP's in practices in order for her to be able to complete clean jumps and combinations in her competitions. If she had had more stamina, I don't think she would have had a traveling problem with some of her spins in a couple of her programs.[/quote] I agree, Lynn, that TT probably front-loaded Sasha's LP because of her stamina problems. As someone else said, better for Sasha to land five triples in the first two minutes of her LP than land three and miss three that are spread throughout the program.

Good observation about the traveling on the spins. At the Campbell's competition in late September, Sasha final spins could have gotten points for ice coverage--and that's when her stamina was at it's lowest. At GPF, by contrast, not only were her spins very centered and fast, but I noticed that she did the Beaver Cleaver very easily, without the strain I usually see when she does it in competition (when she demonstrated it on one of those "Ice Moves" things, it looked like the easiest thing in the world). So at least from what I've seen, it looks like her endurance has improved. Whether this will translate to a smooth performance at Worlds, as they say, we'll just have to see.

Just a word in general about stamina: I think this is an element of skating training that often gets overlooked. In both dance and skating, I think a lot of times technique gets so much attention that sometimes the benefits of the basic physiology of strength and endurance get overlooked. IMO, good off-ice training and full or double runthroughs for endurance should be a part of every elite skater's regimen. When Michelle said she got an off-ice trainer this year, I was very happy to hear it, not only because I think it's been great for her, but also because I think this will influence other skaters. You can have all the presentation and technique in the world, but if you're overly tired at the end of four minutes, you can't use it.
Rgirl

Re: Sasha's Programs

Rgirl, Sasha Abt is a perfect example of what you are talking about. Poor guy at about 4 minutes, he is almost dead. I have often wondered if he smoked, which probably is another subject.

Dee

Re: Sasha's Programs

Yeah, Abt has had a lot of problems with endurance. Traditionally, a lot of the former Soviet/Russian skaters have had trouble with endurance. I don't know if it was common to all the coaches, but the approach in Soviet/Russian skating was to train sections of a program very highly but rarely to do full runthroughs. At competitions, the idea was that they didn't want others able to see the whole program and steal choreography or tricks, and also they wanted the judges to only see their skaters at their best during practices, so they would only parts of a program so they could do it really well. I would think that better ideas about training are being used by former Soviet/Russian coaches, but at least for some, I'm sure traditions die hard. However I did hear an interview with Sasha Zhulin, Abt's new coach, where he said that one of the things he wanted to work on with Abt was his endurance. Also, some people just naturally have a harder time with endurance than others because of their physiology. Such a major bummer that Abt got injured
Rgirl

Re: Sasha's Programs

Dee - I thought it was that monotonous Ravel that made him slow down, and give the impression of being bored. He looked fine to me at GPF with Rach again, given the pain he must have been in. I'm afraid he's going to join the list of skaters who had the talent but never made medals.

Joe

Re: Sasha's Programs

Re Sasha Abt, I thought I heard or read somewhere that he had asthma.

Lynn

Re: Sasha's Programs

I have "nasty little thoughts" about Michelle when she does her inside spread eagle, especially in her perfect little dresses. I have "nasty little thoughts" about Sasha when ... well pretty much every other move she does.

By the way, people, here's a great way to deal with people who pick on certain skaters. Point out that person's bias succinctly everytime it applies. Biases detract from credit, and discussions are ultimately based on credibility. Other than that, try not to blow a gasket over it.

Re: Sasha's Programs

hey, i finally got around to reading this thread...wooowieeee!!!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But the best is when a poster is so nice that it makes me want to start liking his/her favorite skater, too. For example, every time Kara Bear comes on board with her cute signature picture of Sasha, I want to say, "Awwww. I hope Sasha has the skate of her life at Worlds.[/quote]

Maybe I should be spreading my sweetness around more so everyone will grow to love Sasha!

As for Sasha's programs, I like her SP much more than Rach. In fact, I became a huge fan when I first saw her skate it at Skate Canada. But her front loading does worry me too and her sometimes lack of consistency of course. But I think this has all been said before.

BTW, Fetal...welcome back. I'm laughing at your posts already.

Sasha's Programs

I definitely have a headache now.

I read every post on this thread and it's a miracle I haven't gone in the closet and hidden. I'm sorry, I had to read cynic's post to eltamina twice and I almost agreed with mathman for a whole minute until I realized that had cynic added a "." instead of a "," in one of her sentences, it would have made more sense. But to tell someone to go to the MKF and slam another skater pretty much got my goat.

Well, I am not particularly fond of certain aspects of Sasha's skating. I do prefer her SP over her LP this year because I think her LP has gotten more front-loaded, methodical, and slower since the beginning of the season. I don't think it's my imagination either. I thought, at Campbells, that Sasha had a pretty balanced program with the LP, but I can see now that TT and she have decided to get all the hard stuff out of the way before the 3 minute mark.

So, where does that leave the rest of her program? It becomes boring. Even the footwork is boring because it looks like the footwork in the SP where it fits much better. I thought Sasha stood a good chance of finally having a well-balanced, possibly clean LP if she kept working it the way it was at the beginning of the season. So much for that thought!

I know I haven't been posting here for long, but why does it seem that posters "gang" up on another poster? Seems kind of one-sided. It's like a game, pointing out the flaws of one specific poster while hiding the flaws of the "gang". That's just as bad as "bashing" or "dissing" our skaters. And if I'm out of line stating what I have perceived by some recent posts, well, I won't apologize. I'd certainly hate to have some of that venom directed at me. With that said, I will say this is one (note: one) of my favorite forums around.

I wear my sunglasses to take a nap at work...:rollin: