First throw triple Axel

gsk8 · May 12, 2019

Rena Inoue and John Baldwin, Jr. (USA) became the first pair team to perform a throw triple Axel in competition at the 2006 U.S. Figure Skating Championships, and then made Olympic and ISU history landing it again at the 2006 Winter Olympics.

While there have been attempts by other teams, who else landed one in competition? Who is working on this element?

yume · May 12, 2019

Savchenko/Massot attempted it. I forgot the competitions.

Hevari · May 12, 2019

yume said:
Savchenko/Massot attempted it. I forgot the competitions.

Alyona attempted it with Robin Szolkowy as well

Wombat1800 · May 12, 2019

I'm pretty sure Duhamel and Radford attempted it at the beginning of the last Olympic season.

Mathman · May 12, 2019

Rena Inoue :love:

has the distinction of having been to the Olympics both as a singles skater (1994, representing Japan) and as a pairs skater with two different partners (John Baldwin in 2006 and Tomoaki Koyama in 1992). Maybe it was her training in singles that allowed her to master the throw 3A.

Tonichelle · May 12, 2019

I was there to see it happen. I feel old.

yume · May 12, 2019

Mathman said:
Rena Inoue has the distinction of having been to the Olympics both as a singles skater (1994, representing Japan) and as a pairs skater with two different partners (John Baldwin in 2006 and Tomoaki Koyama in 1992). Maybe it was her training in singles that allowed her to master the throw 3A.

Maybe Kavaguti/Smirnov attempted it too then. Since Yuko started as a single skater and they attempted and landed two quads throws. Wouldn't be surprised if they attempted the 3A.

gsk8 · May 12, 2019

I do remember when French team Sarah Abitbol and Stephane Bernadis worked on them, but it was never successfully landed in competition.

dorispulaski · May 12, 2019

I feel that it has been tried by a lot of very good teams, but I have never seen a better one than the one landed by Rena Inoue at the Olympics in their SP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QCbAYc2GSg

IMO It should have a higher base score than it does!

It was even more underscored in 2006.

4everchan · May 12, 2019

D/R were very close to stabiize it... i think one more season would have done it..

GarthAqua · May 13, 2019

Throw axels are so much different from the other throws so no wonder very few pairs tried that.

GoneWithTheWind · May 13, 2019

4everchan said:
D/R were very close to stabiize it... i think one more season would have done it..

Totally agree, they landed a clean one at Skate Canada 2016 (https://youtu.be/Hfhf4iNjuCM?t=82). If I remember correctly, they decided to remove it later in the season as the difference in the tech score between it and the throw 3 lutz made it not worth the risk, especially as the next season was the Olympic one.

4everchan · May 13, 2019

GoneWithTheWind said:
Totally agree, they landed a clean one at Skate Canada 2016 (https://youtu.be/Hfhf4iNjuCM?t=82). If I remember correctly, they decided to remove it later in the season as the difference in the tech score between it and the throw 3 lutz made it not worth the risk, especially as the next season was the Olympic one.

IIRC their original plan was to include a throw quad lutz in the long, they landed that during a local summer competition... however, it was messing up their timing on the thow triple lutz, which they needed in the short. So, they decided to learn the throw triple axel, and when stable enough, they would have the option of dropping the throw triple lutz altogether and have both throws as quads in the LP. Unfortunately, they were not getting good GOE on the 3A throw..and at one point, it caused them a big deficit in the short so they went back to the lutz.....

Throws were discussed a lot by Meagan who feels that the base of value for them is odd.... for instance, she said that their throw triple flip is so much easier than the lutz and doesn't understand why they are considered the same throw as the entrances are completely different. She also said that the throw toe loop is very hard to control, and the salchow is much easier but then, they have the same value.

with the new base of value... i doubt we will see exotic throws for a while... we are back to the triple salchow, loop and occasional flips/lutzes

skylark · May 13, 2019

dorispulaski said:
I feel that it has been tried by a lot of very good teams, but I have never seen a better one than the one landed by Rena Inoue at the Olympics in their SP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QCbAYc2GSg

That was so beautiful, the whole program. A perfect throw triple axel, gorgeous skating, and as Bezic said, they maintained a beautiful performance throughout, despite undoubtedly being elated at the way they did the throw. She was perfect, and he threw her perfectly, not too forcefully but just powerfully enough.

I am wistful, watching the opening Star Lift. So simple and so beautiful in every way. Now, everyone would add catch-foot, changes, for more points. Sigh.

I really enjoyed re-watching that.

skylark · May 13, 2019

4everchan said:
IIRC their original plan was to include a throw quad lutz in the long, they landed that during a local summer competition... however, it was messing up their timing on the thow triple lutz, which they needed in the short. So, they decided to learn the throw triple axel, and when stable enough, they would have the option of dropping the throw triple lutz altogether and have both throws as quads in the LP. Unfortunately, they were not getting good GOE on the 3A throw..and at one point, it caused them a big deficit in the short so they went back to the lutz.....

Throws were discussed a lot by Meagan who feels that the base of value for them is odd.... for instance, she said that their throw triple flip is so much easier than the lutz and doesn't understand why they are considered the same throw as the entrances are completely different. She also said that the throw toe loop is very hard to control, and the salchow is much easier but then, they have the same value.

with the new base of value... i doubt we will see exotic throws for a while... we are back to the triple salchow, loop and occasional flips/lutzes

Out of 19 pairs team who competed in 2019 Worlds, nine of them completed throw triple flip in their free skates, and one completed a throw triple lutz. I wouldn't call that "occasional." In the short programs, seven did 3FlTh, and one did 3LzTh.

In 2018-19, throw triple loop earned 5.00 base value, while throw triple salchow earned 4.40 BV.. I didn't look up to see if this has changed recently.

I love to hear Meagan Duhamel talk about pairs skating. She really goes into details, the big picture, and depth ... why they do what they do. All with such passion. Still, doesn't it usually depend on the individual skaters or team whether a lutz or a flip, for instance, is harder? Like, for some single skaters, the lutz is much easier than a flip, much more consistent; and they struggle on the flip. All this in spite of the fact that a lutz gets a bigger score and is judged to be more difficult.

On TSL, Meagan recently (after she'd retired) talked about how hard the triple twist always was for her and Eric to do. I'm pretty sure she related it to the technique that each partner learned first, and how difficult it is to make adjustments to that. She also mentioned somewhere that she thought the SBS pairs spins should be scored higher if they stayed in sync; which is hard, and especially hard when there's a larger difference in height. I totally agree! a pet peeve of mine is to see how many pairs get out of sync on that element.

I think a strong argument for the case against doing a throw triple axel in pairs is the example of Aljona and Bruno. They kept trying to do it, kept missing it in competitions, and according to Aljona, she kept getting injured doing it in practices, then would have to be off the ice for a couple of weeks ... then have to work hard to bring all the other elements up to measure. When they finally changed to throw triple flip instead, their program became so consistently beautiful. I don't think anyone missed the 3Ath; well, at least I breathed easier and enjoyed their program much more without it.

4everchan · May 13, 2019

skylark said:
Out of 19 pairs team who competed in 2019 Worlds, nine of them completed throw triple flip in their free skates, and one completed a throw triple lutz. I wouldn't call that "occasional." In the short programs, seven did 3FlTh, and one did 3LzTh.

In 2018-19, throw triple loop earned 5.00 base value, while throw triple salchow earned 4.40 BV.. I didn't look up to see if this has changed recently.

I love to hear Meagan Duhamel talk about pairs skating. She really goes into details, the big picture, and depth ... why they do what they do. All with such passion. Still, doesn't it usually depend on the individual skaters or team whether a lutz or a flip, for instance, is harder? Like, for some single skaters, the lutz is much easier than a flip, much more consistent; and they struggle on the flip. All this in spite of the fact that a lutz gets a bigger score and is judged to be more difficult.

On TSL, Meagan recently (after she'd retired) talked about how hard the triple twist always was for her and Eric to do. I'm pretty sure she related it to the technique that each partner learned first, and how difficult it is to make adjustments to that. She also mentioned somewhere that she thought the SBS pairs spins should be scored higher if they stayed in sync; which is hard, and especially hard when there's a larger difference in height. I totally agree! a pet peeve of mine is to see how many pairs get out of sync on that element.

I think a strong argument for the case against doing a throw triple axel in pairs is the example of Aljona and Bruno. They kept trying to do it, kept missing it in competitions, and according to Aljona, she kept getting injured doing it in practices, then would have to be off the ice for a couple of weeks ... then have to work hard to bring all the other elements up to measure. When they finally changed to throw triple flip instead, their program became so consistently beautiful. I don't think anyone missed the 3Ath; well, at least I breathed easier and enjoyed their program much more without it.

as you said, only one with a lutz... that is quite occasional. I could have been more precise because many teams do the flip... but still not as many do flips/lutzes compared to loop or salchow... i feel pairs has gone back a decade with the new base values

GarthAqua · May 14, 2019

4everchan said:
as you said, only one with a lutz... that is quite occasional. I could have been more precise because many teams do the flip... but still not as many do flips/lutzes compared to loop or salchow... i feel pairs has gone back a decade with the new base values

About the throw Lz/F, there is also one issue. Some pairs have their throws recognized as F or Lz in different competitions. Some of them have flat edges into the throw. Also with the assistant of the partner, the entrance edges may have less effect on the throw jumps than on single jumps. So it seems OK to consider these two throws as the same jump.
But there are some pairs doing throws with a clear in/outside edge. Like Sui's Th3F with a Mohawk entrance or Valentina's Th3Lz with a deep outside edge. What if some skaters can do both throw jumps with clear edges? Isn't that unfair to them?

ragdoll · May 14, 2019

I think we will see the Thow3A again. Sooner or later there will be some pair who will want to stand out from the rest even if the Axel won't give as many points as they would like. Some people always try to push the limits and that is true of all sports including skating so I believe we will see it soon.

zanadude · May 17, 2019

Rena Inoue remains the only person in history to land both a Triple Axel and a Single Husband on the ice.

4everchan · May 17, 2019

zanadude said:
Rena Inoue remains the only person in history to land both a Triple Axel and a Single Husband on the ice.

meagan did land her husband on the ice too... bruno is her coach...

First throw triple Axel

gsk8

yume

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Hevari

Drivers start your engines!

Wombat1800

Mathman

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

yume

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gsk8

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

4everchan

GarthAqua

GoneWithTheWind

4everchan

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset

4everchan

GarthAqua

ragdoll

zanadude

4everchan

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