I think he probably hasn't. He just squeaked in the required score at Nationals the year before last. Then the men's scoring system changed. The guys were struggling to match their previous season's scores, Ma and Dolensky among them last year. They were losing to Savary, and he couldn't get on the ISP because he didn't have the required score. (He was injured the year before when the other guys on the bubble earned it). Anyway, I thought it was possible the required score for the ISP might be lowered in the men's event, but I'm not seeing any of those bubble senior guys on it. (Sean for example).
2019-20 U.S. Men's Figure Skating
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USFS is publicly quite opaque about the ISP selection process, but I’m guessing it may not be quite as simple as meeting certain general minimum scores. Basically I’m wondering if certain skaters are told privately that they have to meet individual targets (eg, achieve a specific score, or improve their season’s best by x points, etc.) to be considered, and if that might be the case for Jimmy (who is nearly 24, had pretty low scores internationally last season, and who scored quite a bit less at 2019 Nats than he did in 2018).
In any case, if his current non-appearance on the ISP is not simply a delay by USFS in updating the ISP, I hope he has another chance to show what he can do in Philly.
In any case, if his current non-appearance on the ISP is not simply a delay by USFS in updating the ISP, I hope he has another chance to show what he can do in Philly.
My guess is that the mandatory score for the senior men to make the ISP is @220. It could be higher now, but there's no reason for it to be because the base value in the men's event went down last season with the elimination of one jump pass.
Someone on FSU (I think it was Sylvia, but I could be wrong there) posted that Jimmy made last year's ISP with his score at the 2018 U.S. Nationals. That score was 222.41.
Savary had 210.75 at last year's Southwestern Regionals, and it wasn't enough to be added last season. Sean had 217.84 at Nationals. As far as I can tell, that was his highest score last season. Ma had 206.92 there. As far as I can tell, his highest score last year was 217.64 at Eastern Sectionals. Those scores weren't enough. As far as I can tell, no senior man with a PB below 220 from last year made this year's ISP. Pulkinen finished below those two guys at Nationals, but he had 223.95 for his international SB last season. He made the ISP.
I don't follow the guys' scores super closely, but I was watching last season because I was trying to figure out what Emmanuel needed to score. I do follow the junior dancers' scores very closely, and USFS sticks to their mandatory score criteria for those junior dance teams. We don't always get the score so sometimes we only know a range for where that score might be, but no junior dance teams have made the ISP over teams with higher scores throughout the two seasons that I've been watching. And all teams meeting the mandatory dance scores that I have been told about have been added to the ISP. These teams do not always get an international event. Other criteria--such as head-to-head results--is clearly used to actually offer assignments.
There are clearly exceptions when athletes' previous results are high enough to help them gain a non-host GP spot. Gracie Gold and Green/Parsons both appear to have made the ISP in this way.
Someone on FSU (I think it was Sylvia, but I could be wrong there) posted that Jimmy made last year's ISP with his score at the 2018 U.S. Nationals. That score was 222.41.
Savary had 210.75 at last year's Southwestern Regionals, and it wasn't enough to be added last season. Sean had 217.84 at Nationals. As far as I can tell, that was his highest score last season. Ma had 206.92 there. As far as I can tell, his highest score last year was 217.64 at Eastern Sectionals. Those scores weren't enough. As far as I can tell, no senior man with a PB below 220 from last year made this year's ISP. Pulkinen finished below those two guys at Nationals, but he had 223.95 for his international SB last season. He made the ISP.
I don't follow the guys' scores super closely, but I was watching last season because I was trying to figure out what Emmanuel needed to score. I do follow the junior dancers' scores very closely, and USFS sticks to their mandatory score criteria for those junior dance teams. We don't always get the score so sometimes we only know a range for where that score might be, but no junior dance teams have made the ISP over teams with higher scores throughout the two seasons that I've been watching. And all teams meeting the mandatory dance scores that I have been told about have been added to the ISP. These teams do not always get an international event. Other criteria--such as head-to-head results--is clearly used to actually offer assignments.
There are clearly exceptions when athletes' previous results are high enough to help them gain a non-host GP spot. Gracie Gold and Green/Parsons both appear to have made the ISP in this way.
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@ice dance, thanks for your thoughts. At the risk of sounding dumb, how do we know there are mandatory score criteria in any discipline? Is it mentioned somewhere, but just not on the ISP page?
In other news, according to his Wikipedia entry, Andrew T will be competing in Philly. I didn’t see info for anyone else.
In other news, according to his Wikipedia entry, Andrew T will be competing in Philly. I didn’t see info for anyone else.
Upon occasion, fabulous posters tell us what the required score is. (My understanding is that the athletes know the numbers. It's just not public knowledge). Sylvia posted the score for junior dance a couple years ago. Sure enough, everyone that met that score during the summer was added to the ISP. Another poster reported that he/she had heard an approximate number for the new score this season, and thus far, it appears to be correct.
It's also clear that there is usually a scoring threshold needed at one's first JGP event in order to earn a second one. As sometimes USFS lets spots go unfilled even though there are athletes on the ISP available to fill them. (Penciled in athletes that earn low scores at their first JGP come off lists for 2nd events even if there is no one else to fill the berth).
I was just hunting a bit more, and Sean did have 223.83 at Glacier Falls last year. It was way back last summer so I don't know if that is considered too far back to be relevant for this season. But it is essentially equivalent to the highest score I've found for Camden from last year, and as far as I can tell Camden's only score over 220 was JGP Austria which was Aug. 20-Sept. 1.
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Camden did have a guaranteed GP event due to his WS. And juniors do have lower BV than the seniors in the FS, so perhaps they adjust for that.
Yes. The former seems a likely scenario. I do wonder about whether requirements are different for athletes moving up from a lower level. Don't see a lot of evidence of it though. After all, Camden competed as a senior at Nationals and Inge Solar. And most singles skaters moving up do compete at Senior Nationals. It doesn't look to me like the novice dancers' lower BV was taken into account when listing junior dance teams. And I remember a few years ago that Biechler & Dodge had a JGP medal heading into seniors and were on the GP replacement list, but they had to earn a minimum score during the summer before they were put on the ISP. (Though evidence suggests that if they had been invited onto the GP, they would have gone straight onto the ISP regardless of the score).
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Do you have any thoughts on what got Patrick Frohling onto the published ISP list going into the 2018-19 season?
He was on Team USA at 2018 Philadelphia International (Senior Men).
His 2017-18 Sectionals score (Junior Men): 169.09
2018 Nats (Junior Men): 138.43
2018 Glacier Falls (Senior Men): 140.00
I don't know what other results he had from club comps before Philadelphia International.
Would his junior sectionals score have been sufficient??
ETA:
My own theory is that USFS must have liked what they saw from him at High Performance Camp.
BTW, after Philadelphia International, he went on to score 180.13 at 2018 Golden West (Senior Men).
And then 170.93 at 2018 Mid Atlantics (Senior Men).
BTW, after Philadelphia International, he went on to score 180.13 at 2018 Golden West (Senior Men).
And then 170.93 at 2018 Mid Atlantics (Senior Men).
Off topic, but FWIW, Ales/Tsarik already had received their Team USA jackets before Nationals. Maybe because of their sectionals score???
Maybe so. That is why I was careful to repeatedly refer to the *published* list.
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thanks for sharing. I was really looking fward to watching him tho
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Based on Sean’s IG after this year’s Glacier Falls, unfortunately I doubt that USFS is taking last year’s Glacier Falls results into account. Sean wrote about “failing to achieve the result” he wanted, and “not knowing” if he would have the chance to achieve the result again.
I have no idea, of course, but it doesn’t sound like he’s just talking about skating somewhere else to get a higher score.
So :sad21: that he probably won’t have a shot for Skate America. I hope he will compete again this year
I've no recollection of Patrick
. So no, I haven't any idea what events he entered or scores he earned prior to 2018. I tried searching his name and "ISP" on FSU but nothing came up.As for Ales & Tsarik, it's a good question. That was a late season--post JGP--addition so I wasn't watching the ISP dance list then like I did during the summer. There was a poster on FSU complaining that they shouldn't have had those jackets before Nationals so I think there was some controversy there. The score from Midwestern Sectionals was very high. Enough to have passed the required ISP score from the summer by about 18 points. However, I'm not sure A&T were actually added to the ISP list after Sectionals. And the Purnells' score from Midwestern Sectionals was 122.04, which I'm pretty sure also would have met the required ISP score from the summer. (I believe Amoia & Becker made the list mid-summer with 122.69). And I really don't think the Purnells were ever added. Nor would they have been sent for a late-season event with a score that low, but A&T got an event. It wasn't until after Nationals so I don't know if technically they earned that event at Sectionals or Nationals. (Cesanek & Yehorov scored higher all season, but there must have been some hindrance to their competing due to his coming from Ukraine, though we never heard exactly what).
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By the way guys & gals, when do USFS announce Challenger assignments?
Team Japan & Russia have announced their assignments, just wondering when USA's one.
Team Japan & Russia have announced their assignments, just wondering when USA's one.
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I don’t think they’ve ever announced all of the challenger assignments at once. From what I recall, they announce the athletes for one or two events at a time - usually not until after the entry deadlines.
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- Feb 27, 2012
From Skate Wilmington results for NQS Junior Men:
Protocols:
Closing this loop: Tkachenko/Kiliakov now have been added to the published ISP list.
Patrick's case from last year does make me wonder all the more as to which U.S. men will be competing at Philadelphia International this year.
I don't mean that Patrick will be back -- just saying that I still feel a lack of clarity re the ISP.
(BTW, I hope it does not sound as if I were picking on Patrick. I met him twice last season, and he seemed like a nice guy and hardworking guy.
)
Nicholas Hsieh 174.09 (at his home club)
https://skatewilm.com/competitions-...-2/skate-wilmington-2019-ijs-results-summary/
https://skatewilm.com/competitions-...-2/skate-wilmington-2019-ijs-results-summary/
Protocols:
Closing this loop: Tkachenko/Kiliakov now have been added to the published ISP list.
I've no recollection of Patrick
Patrick's case from last year does make me wonder all the more as to which U.S. men will be competing at Philadelphia International this year.
I don't mean that Patrick will be back -- just saying that I still feel a lack of clarity re the ISP.
ETA:
Per Sylvia and sammyf at FSU, Patrick was on the published ISP list as early as Apr 2018.
(BTW, I hope it does not sound as if I were picking on Patrick. I met him twice last season, and he seemed like a nice guy and hardworking guy.
)
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Congratulations to Jimmy Ma :luv17:, who achieved the ISP score :dance2: at Skate Detroit, per this great photo/post from @the.cains:
His winning score apparently was 219.95. https://goldenskate.com/forum/showt...kate-Detroit&p=2426582&viewfull=1#post2426582
Video of most of Jimmy's SP yesterday, thanks to Sarah Rasher:
(Love the program … plus the nice camaraderie as he exited the ice -- slapping hands with the next skater, Andrew Austin, who some will remember from 2019 Nats.)
Great new multi-faceted article about Jordan Moeller:
Among other things, he discusses his competitive plans for this season:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B0b8TWcnVgN/ (Jul 27)
His winning score apparently was 219.95. https://goldenskate.com/forum/showt...kate-Detroit&p=2426582&viewfull=1#post2426582
Video of most of Jimmy's SP yesterday, thanks to Sarah Rasher:
https://youtu.be/ZPtc0Ql2oxU (3:11, Jul 26)
(Love the program … plus the nice camaraderie as he exited the ice -- slapping hands with the next skater, Andrew Austin, who some will remember from 2019 Nats.)
Great new multi-faceted article about Jordan Moeller:
Among other things, he discusses his competitive plans for this season:
... I will be competing this season! I am not sure what will be my first competition yet, but at the latest, I will be competing in November at the Midwestern Sectional Championships. My short program has been choreographed and I am going to be choreographing my long program while I am here in the UK. ...
[In response to a question about Kori]
I am not 100% decided either way yet (if I will return to Colorado Springs or move to Nashville), but am hoping to find some clarity in my decisions while I am here in England. ...
[In response to a question about Kori]
I am not 100% decided either way yet (if I will return to Colorado Springs or move to Nashville), but am hoping to find some clarity in my decisions while I am here in England. ...
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Jimmy Ma met the International Selection Pool's required score --> https://www.instagram.com/p/B0b8TWcnVgN/?igshid=9zzlp4ptx8ac
Jimmy Ma scored a total of 219.95 at Skate Detroit (75.32 in the Short and 144.63 in the Free). Congratulations. Based on what has been circulating on Instagram, it seems the ISP requirement for junior ladies is 150+ and around 220 for senior men.
Jimmy Ma scored a total of 219.95 at Skate Detroit (75.32 in the Short and 144.63 in the Free). Congratulations. Based on what has been circulating on Instagram, it seems the ISP requirement for junior ladies is 150+ and around 220 for senior men.
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