2019-20 U.S. Ice Dance | Page 12 | Golden Skate

2019-20 U.S. Ice Dance

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
I believe the Flutzes & Waxels podcast and the In the Loop podcast both criticized this program on the grounds of stereotyping and cultural appropriation.

Wow. :shocked:Well, podcasters can’t have good takes all the time, can they?

I am not arguing with you, @Tavi, I know you are just bringing the info, but if any of them are posters on GS, I would invite them to provide the background in ancient languages and history that entitles them to make such an argument. Otherwise, I trust my sources;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
My spousal unit the classics professor says many of the arm movements, although stylized, would be readily recognizable to an ancient Egyptian.

Madison La'akea Te-Lan Hall Chock is Chinese and Hawaiian on her father's side and some sort of European or European/American on her mother's. I believe she is descended through her maternal grandmother from the dynastic Pharaoh Khufu. So she's cool with cultural potpourri.
 

dancelion21

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Wow. :shocked:Well, podcasters can’t have good takes all the time, can they?

I am not arguing with you, @Tavi, I know you are just bringing the info, but if any of them are posters on GS, I would invite them to provide the background in ancient languages and history that entitles them to make such an argument. Otherwise, I trust my sources;)

IMO, The Flutzes and Waxels Podcast does a really good job talking about the problems with Chock and Bates’ free dance at the 30 minute mark in their US International Classic Dance episode. I think it’s a great listen as to why the arms and the belly dancing could be considered offensive and portraying inaccurate stereotypes about Egyptian culture. One of the podcasters has a major in Egyptology, and even though ancient Egypt is a dead culture, the way it’s portrayed in media still has a huge impact on how people outside view the modern Egyptian culture

Also, I agree that C/B’s free dance is mesmerizing and super unique. It’s my personal favorite free dance of the season and it’s super engaging to watch every time, but it’s definitely not the most nuanced or respectful portrayal of Egyptian culture.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
IMO, The Flutzes and Waxels Podcast does a really good job talking about the problems with Chock and Bates’ free dance at the 30 minute mark in their US International Classic Dance episode. I think it’s a great listen as to why the arms and the belly dancing could be considered offensive and portraying inaccurate stereotypes about Egyptian culture. One of the podcasters has a major in Egyptology, and even though ancient Egypt is a dead culture, the way it’s portrayed in media still has a huge impact on how people outside view the modern Egyptian culture

Also, I agree that C/B’s free dance is mesmerizing and super unique. It’s my personal favorite free dance of the season and it’s super engaging to watch every time, but it’s definitely not the most nuanced or respectful portrayal of Egyptian culture.

Maybe I will sometime listen to the podcast: I am impressed that one of the podcasters has a major in Egyptology. However, without getting into "can you top this", so far they still don't have Spousal Unit's education and academic career. I'm still going with my source. So, accepting that he is not a figure skating fan (and I love him anyway:luv17:) and has seen the snake dance program exactly once, he says that the hands are stylized representations that were common in the writings and artwork of the time. An ancient Egyptian would have understood and appreciated the movements in this program. I didn't see any "belly dancing", I saw someone trying to be a snake.:)

I don't know what "respectful" means. :confused: I have yet to see one Gladiator program that is "respectful" of ancient Roman culture. But I love them anyway. And whether those programs give outsiders an accurate view of Italy today; that's a connection that's way too tenuous for me to even think about. Likewise with the Snake Dance.

We agree we love the program:agree:
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Maybe I will sometime listen to the podcast: I am impressed that one of the podcasters has a major in Egyptology. However, without getting into "can you top this", so far they still don't have Spousal Unit's education and academic career. I'm still going with my source. So, accepting that he is not a figure skating fan (and I love him anyway:luv17:) and has seen the snake dance program exactly once, he says that the hands are stylized representations that were common in the writings and artwork of the time. An ancient Egyptian would have understood and appreciated the movements in this program. I didn't see any "belly dancing", I saw someone trying to be a snake.:)

I don't know what "respectful" means. :confused: I have yet to see one Gladiator program that is "respectful" of ancient Roman culture. But I love them anyway. And whether those programs give outsiders an accurate view of Italy today; that's a connection that's way too tenuous for me to even think about. Likewise with the Snake Dance.

We agree we love the program:agree:

Well, this feels like gatekeeping. And nonetheless, it's a counterpoint with a lot of founded merit that I'm surprised is being dismissed so, especially when you haven't listened.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Ice dance in the Us is gearing up for anice battle. The fact teams are changing programs suggests they want to win and know when things aren't workng or are working. Late changes means in the cost benefit analysis they think it is worth the gamble overall. I think the battle is for one and two Chock and Bates versus Hubell and Donahue and then we have the third spot open for worlds. HB look vulnerable. MC look precarious too. C/P have not risen as fast as some thought. Tehre are the new promising teams too. That third spot is going to be a killer battle.
 

heartyxo

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 27, 2019
In terms of the cultural appropriation, I think it’s more down to individuals. Like a lot of people on Twitter are really hating on it, and not in a respectful way so it’s kinda hypocritical (but that’s figure skating Twitter for you). I think people can be offended by these things but many others aren’t and people shouldn’t attack each other for it and just let people enjoy the program they want to.

I personally think it’s an amazing program, because it is unique and interesting but it’s also so well constructed that every element suits them perfectly and fits the theme. It really highlights their strengths, the lifts are the real centerpieces and the musicality is amazing. It may not be the most difficult in terms of step sequences, etc. but the musicality needed all the way through is insane. The way they perform it and just go for it makes it very unique to them and makes you think that no other team could pull it off and honestly I don’t know if others could. That’s a hell of a lot more than most others (especially h/d) have going for them.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
IMO, The Flutzes and Waxels Podcast does a really good job talking about the problems with Chock and Bates’ free dance at the 30 minute mark in their US International Classic Dance episode. I think it’s a great listen as to why the arms and the belly dancing could be considered offensive and portraying inaccurate stereotypes about Egyptian culture. One of the podcasters has a major in Egyptology, and even though ancient Egypt is a dead culture, the way it’s portrayed in media still has a huge impact on how people outside view the modern Egyptian culture

Also, I agree that C/B’s free dance is mesmerizing and super unique. It’s my personal favorite free dance of the season and it’s super engaging to watch every time, but it’s definitely not the most nuanced or respectful portrayal of Egyptian culture.

I'd probably get carpal tunnel syndrome if I listed ID programs that are "definitely not the most nuanced or respectful portrayal(s)" of foreign cultures. On second thought, make that "definitely."

One thing you can say about all the old Detroit teams under Marina and Igor...they do their cultural homework.

I'm about as liberal as you get, and I get fed up with this notion that ANY use of a specific part of a culture that is not specifically native to that particular person or team is deemed offensive appropriation.

Does that mean every single non-American team or individual skater who uses rap or hip hop is an offensive appropriator? To take just one example.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
Well, this feels like gatekeeping. And nonetheless, it's a counterpoint with a lot of founded merit that I'm surprised is being dismissed so, especially when you haven't listened.

I don’t know what gatekeeping means here. Truly.

I’m not supposed to take the word of my spousal unit of many years with the doctorate in classics and 40 years in academia over the Podcast? Sorry, I’ll take marital harmony over the podcast. :) you are right that to criticize a podcast I have not listened to is unfair, so I should refrain from that.

Jumping off and directed to the general proposition, this FD is no more cultural appropriation than I am Michelle Kwan. :biggrin: I have already given my reasons in the previous post.

And to respond to another post, I’m sorry this is evidently a thing on skating Twitter, but what I think of skating Twitter is why I’m here on Goldenskate. ;)

Go Madi and Evan:cheer:
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
I'd probably get carpal tunnel syndrome if I listed ID programs that are "definitely not the most nuanced or respectful portrayal(s)" of foreign cultures. On second thought, make that "definitely."

One thing you can say about all the old Detroit teams under Marina and Igor...they do their cultural homework.

I'm about as liberal as you get, and I get fed up with this notion that ANY use of a specific part of a culture that is not specifically native to that particular person or team is deemed offensive appropriation.

Does that mean every single non-American team or individual skater who uses rap or hip hop is an offensive appropriator? To take just one example.

I think this example is a bit more complex than you're making it, WeakAnkles. One, it bakes in an assumption that an American team couldn't use rap or hip hop in a program in an appropriative manner, which they absolutely can. Two, I think there's a contextual issue when we're talking about figure skating. There are not, and historically have not been, a large number of black skaters, especially African-American skaters, in figure skating. Especially at the competitive level. When the vast majority of people who participate in and enjoy a sport are not members of the group being referenced in an artistic portrayal, there's room for more scrutiny because there's less likely to be conscious regard for their interests and perspective in a meaningful way.

TL;DR: The answer is no. But there's no need to treat it as an issue of something being always/never appropriative, which always seems to be the immediate reaction when a specific program is criticized in this way.

Anyways, I hope C/B win Nationals because they have the most complete programs.

I don’t know what gatekeeping means here. Truly.

I’m not supposed to take the word of my spousal unit of many years with the doctorate in classics and 40 years in academia over the Podcast? Sorry, I’ll take marital harmony over the podcast. :) you are right that to criticize a podcast I have not listened to is unfair, so I should refrain from that.

Jumping off and directed to the general proposition, this FD is no more cultural appropriation than I am Michelle Kwan. :biggrin: I have already given my reasons in the previous post.

And to respond to another post, I’m sorry this is evidently a thing on skating Twitter, but what I think of skating Twitter is why I’m here on Goldenskate. ;)

Go Madi and Evan:cheer:

You're rejecting the merit of someone else's academic opinion just because they have less academic training than someone else, even though their academic training is quite tightly scoped to what's being discussed. You're entitled to give credit to someone you know personally (and I don't have any interest in wading through personal waters), but someone with an Egyptology degree is capable of giving an opinion that has merit on its own. Not trying to change your opinion - just thought it seemed unfair. Maybe you should just give it a listen if you're interested.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
I think this example is a bit more complex than you're making it, WeakAnkles. One, it bakes in an assumption that an American team couldn't use rap or hip hop in a program in an appropriative manner, which they absolutely can. Two, I think there's a contextual issue when we're talking about figure skating. There are not, and historically have not been, a large number of black skaters, especially African-American skaters, in figure skating. Especially at the competitive level. When the vast majority of people who participate in and enjoy a sport are not members of the group being referenced in an artistic portrayal, there's room for more scrutiny because there's less likely to be conscious regard for their interests and perspective in a meaningful way.

TL;DR: The answer is no. But there's no need to treat it as an issue of something being always/never appropriative, which always seems to be the immediate reaction when a specific program is criticized in this way.

Anyways, I hope C/B win Nationals because they have the most complete programs.


I think you may have misunderstood my point, so let me see if I can clarify. First, if I was "baking in" any point about rap as an example, it's the assumption that only those members of the culture which created it should be "authentically" allowed to use it --which I believe is the very opposite of what you say above. I'm also more than a bit wary about playing the numbers game of "well not many skaters of this ethnic/racial group are competing so everyone except them should be scrutinized more closely." At what point do the numbers make it now ok to do so?

I'm old enough to remember very well the beginnings of the PC movement. It's a shame that it was known as Politically Correct; it would have been more accurate to call it Politically Corrective Speech: it was addressing biases and assumptions that needed correcting (such as the use of "he" as a universal third person pronoun in English).

What I absolutely do not in any way shape or form have a problem with is something like Meryl Davis and Charlie White's Bollywood program. It was thoroughly researched, authentically costumed, presented with admiration and respect for the culture. You could see the work put into it--and the respect.

Cultures have ALWAYS appropriated from each other. We don't live in an isolated world. If it done with a respect for and an active engagement with its history and characteristics, I'm all for it. Cultures, like flowering plants, need cross pollination to thrive.

The problem lies when this kind of appropriation is done as a quickie shortcut to say, Hey, aren't we being cutting edge and au courant? The most egregious example of this is certainly well known to even casual ice dance fans: Domina and Shabalin's nefarious aboriginal original dance from the 2010 Olympics. You can't get much more uhm inappropriate than that!
 

Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
No, I believe it's inaccurate. (I can name two other teams that I'm fairly certain were/are more than 7 years apart; but neither has their ages listed online). It is rare in dance as the junior age range is limited, and there isn't the same physical incentive to pair older guys with smaller ladies as there is in pairs. One can name more famous pairs--Moore-Towers & Moscovitch, for example--who have had an 8 or 8+ year gap.
 

*~RussianBleux~*

Medalist
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
I’m seeing an invalid ChSt on the protocol of Cesanek/Yehorov from the junior Free dance. It looks like it cost them the silver medal (came in 4th)! How do you have invalid character steps??

ETA:scrolling down now I am seeing invalid character steps for three other teams as well in this event! I’ve never seen this before. That panel took FOREVER scoring and I knew something seemed off. Anyone know what is going on?
 

oly2018

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
I’m seeing an invalid ChSt on the protocol of Cesanek/Yehorov from the junior Free dance. It looks like it cost them the silver medal (came in 4th)! How do you have invalid character steps??

ETA:scrolling down now I am seeing invalid character steps for three other teams as well in this event! I’ve never seen this before. That panel took FOREVER scoring and I knew something seemed off. Anyone know what is going on?

Quite a few Gadbois teams had this problem earlier in the season. The problem with those teams was their Character step didn't very obviously start from one side of the boards and end at the other end.
 

NanaPat

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Canada
Quite a few Gadbois teams had this problem earlier in the season. The problem with those teams was their Character step didn't very obviously start from one side of the boards and end at the other end.

I sat on the end of the ice at Skate Canada, and one of the elements my daughter recognized without prompting was the "width", as she called it. I explained that there were a whole bunch of teams that got zero for the element at a competition early in the year for not doing "the full width", so now, the teams touch the boards on the opposite side of the rink at the start and tweak the judges noses at the end to clearly show they've done "the full width".

I've noticed a few teams that do it in the opposite direction: they start out tweaking the judges noses and move backwards across the ice away from them until they reach the boards on the opposite side. I think this is harder, but it is a nice variation.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
Ice dance in the Us is gearing up for anice battle. The fact teams are changing programs suggests they want to win and know when things aren't workng or are working. Late changes means in the cost benefit analysis they think it is worth the gamble overall. I think the battle is for one and two Chock and Bates versus Hubell and Donahue and then we have the third spot open for worlds. HB look vulnerable. MC look precarious too. C/P have not risen as fast as some thought. Tehre are the new promising teams too. That third spot is going to be a killer battle.

H/B are by far and away my favorites.
 

*~RussianBleux~*

Medalist
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Quite a few Gadbois teams had this problem earlier in the season. The problem with those teams was their Character step didn't very obviously start from one side of the boards and end at the other end.

Are you telling me this wasn’t an issue for panels at regionals/dance final but it is getting called here? Not every panel is picking it up but every so often you get someone who is a stickler?

If you ask me Molly and Yehor were pretty close to the judges then went to the opposite wall. Did they want them literally touching the boards?

A shame they didn’t catch it at one of their previous events. Such a hard lesson to learn at a national championship.
 

oly2018

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Are you telling me this wasn’t an issue for panels at regionals/dance final but it is getting called here? Not every panel is picking it up but every so often you get someone who is a stickler?

If you ask me Molly and Yehor were pretty close to the judges then went to the opposite wall. Did they want them literally touching the boards?

A shame they didn’t catch it at one of their previous events. Such a hard lesson to learn at a national championship.

I went back and re-watched and based on what I saw earlier this season, they started quite a bit back from the boards and ended a bit far away from the boards. The rule itself is pretty unclear, which sucks, but that call is similar to ones that I saw at earlier Challengers.
 
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