Should there be a greater incentive for loop combinations?

kolyadafan2002 · Jun 21, 2019

Bear with me as this is my first post:

Whilst there are many junior ladies doing combinations with loop, almost no men are doing them. I can see why - as loop combinations are generally much harder than toe combinations: making it extremely risky and harder to get positive GOE.

This is especially interesting as in junior worlds only one boy that I saw went for a combination with a triple loop, and due to it being more of a struggle than most people’s toe’s, the GOE made it less valuable than for those who did combinations with 3T’s.

It is not a problem for a bad loop combination to be worth less than a good Toe combination - however it did not look that bad to me. This means if nobody is risking attempting loop combinations, then people will never learn how to do loop combinations properly, and we end up with people having to do quad-doubles to avoid repeating the 3T. This furthermore decreases the diversity of combination jumps we witness in senior, which makes programs less interesting to watch.

I am not suggesting that the value of 3Lo is raised, as I believe it is fair in relation to the difficulty in relation to the other triples. What I am suggesting is some sort of bonus attributed to utilising it in combination, or even a GOE bonus in combination.

Let me know what you guys think of this suggestion,
Thanks,
Daniel.

moriel · Jun 21, 2019

For me, the main reason men don't do loop combos are the quads.

For ladies, until very recently, most top ladies had nearly same base value, with a difference of some decimals. In such situation, changing a +2T/+3T to a +2Lo/+3Lo is a big deal, because this advantage matters.
Now, men have quads. It doesn't matter much if you scramble every decimal because what wins are not decimals, but multi-quad programs.

For example, lets check the Olympics and the base values there. Im using the new scoring and not counting any of the second half bonus.

Ladies, top 5 in SP:
1. 3Lz+3Lo, 3F, 2A, BV of 19,4
2. 3F+3T, 3Lo, 2A, BV of 17,7
3. 3F+3T, 3Lz, 2A, BV of 18,7
4. 3Lz+3T, 3Lo, 2A, BV of 18,3
5. 3F+3T, 3Lo, 2A, BV of 17,7

Ladies, top 5 in FS:
1. 3F+3T, 3Lz, 3F, 3Lo, 2A+2T+2T, 3S+3T, 2A, BV of 43,3
2. 3Lz, 2A+3T, 3F+2T+2Lo, 3Lz+3Lo, 3S, 3F, 2A, BV of 45,4
3. 3F+3T, 2A+3T, 3Lz, 3Lo, 3F, 3S+2T+2Lo, 2A, BV of 43,7
4. 3Lo, 3Lz+3T, 3F, 3Lz+2T+2Lo, 2A+3T, 3S, 2A, BV of 44,3
5. 3Lz, 3F, 3Lo, 3T, 2A+1Lo+3S, 2A, 3S+2T, BV of 37,3

Men, top 5 in SP:
1. 4S, 3A, 4T+3T, BV of 31,4
2. 4T+3T, 4S, 3A, BV of 31,4
3. 4F, 4T+3T, 3A, BV of 32,7
4. 4Lz+3T, 4T, 3A, BV of 33,2
5. 4Lz+3T, 4T, 3A, BV of 33,2

Men, top 5 in FS:
1. 4Lz, 4F+2T, 4F, 4T+3T, 4T, 4S, 3A, 3F+1Lo+3S, BV of 85,8
2. 4S, 4T, 3F, 4S+3T, 4T+2T*, 3A+1lo+3S, 3Lo, 3Lz, BV of 72,8
3. 4Lo, 4F, 3Lo, 3A, 4T+2T, 4T, 3A+1Lo+3F, 3S+3T, BV of 77,0
4. 4T, 4S+2T, 3A+3T, 4S*, 3Lo, 3A, 3F+1Lo+3S, 3Lz, BV of 71,3
5. 4Lz, 4S, 3A+1Lo+3S, 4T, 4T+2T, 3A, 3Lz+3T, 3F, BV of 77,7

under current scoring, the difference between a 3T and 3Lo is of 0.7 points.

Ladies, SP: difference between highest and lowest BV in top 5 is of 1,7 points.
Ladies, FS: difference between highest and lowest BV in top 5 is of 8,1 points. If you take out Kostner (and her monster PCs), the difference drops to 2,1 points. Every 0.7 points matters. In fact, Zagitova won over Medvedeva by 1.31 points - 2 triple loops across two programs.

Men, SP: difference between highest and lowest BV in top 5 is of 1,8 points.
Men, FS: difference between highest and lowest BV in top 5 is of 14,5 points. Now, this is the point. Its not worth to learn a harder combo for extra 0.7. It is not even about the possible GOE losses and mistakes for being a harder combo, it is simply a very small amount compared to the scores men get. Not only that, but quads and quad combos are high risc, which means +2T/+3T combos are also better because they can be added to virtually anything, so thats also safer.

el henry · Jun 21, 2019

Daniel, I do not have a thought on your question, but congratulations on starting your first thread, and with such a detailed post :clap:

kolyadafan2002 · Jun 21, 2019

moriel said:
For me, the main reason men don't do loop combos are the quads.

For ladies, until very recently, most top ladies had nearly same base value, with a difference of some decimals. In such situation, changing a +2T/+3T to a +2Lo/+3Lo is a big deal, because this advantage matters.
Now, men have quads. It doesn't matter much if you scramble every decimal because what wins are not decimals, but multi-quad programs.

For example, lets check the Olympics and the base values there. Im using the new scoring and not counting any of the second half bonus.

Ladies, top 5 in SP:
1. 3Lz+3Lo, 3F, 2A, BV of 19,4
2. 3F+3T, 3Lo, 2A, BV of 17,7
3. 3F+3T, 3Lz, 2A, BV of 18,7
4. 3Lz+3T, 3Lo, 2A, BV of 18,3
5. 3F+3T, 3Lo, 2A, BV of 17,7

Ladies, top 5 in FS:
1. 3F+3T, 3Lz, 3F, 3Lo, 2A+2T+2T, 3S+3T, 2A, BV of 43,3
2. 3Lz, 2A+3T, 3F+2T+2Lo, 3Lz+3Lo, 3S, 3F, 2A, BV of 45,4
3. 3F+3T, 2A+3T, 3Lz, 3Lo, 3F, 3S+2T+2Lo, 2A, BV of 43,7
4. 3Lo, 3Lz+3T, 3F, 3Lz+2T+2Lo, 2A+3T, 3S, 2A, BV of 44,3
5. 3Lz, 3F, 3Lo, 3T, 2A+1Lo+3S, 2A, 3S+2T, BV of 37,3

Men, top 5 in SP:
1. 4S, 3A, 4T+3T, BV of 31,4
2. 4T+3T, 4S, 3A, BV of 31,4
3. 4F, 4T+3T, 3A, BV of 32,7
4. 4Lz+3T, 4T, 3A, BV of 33,2
5. 4Lz+3T, 4T, 3A, BV of 33,2

Men, top 5 in FS:
1. 4Lz, 4F+2T, 4F, 4T+3T, 4T, 4S, 3A, 3F+1Lo+3S, BV of 85,8
2. 4S, 4T, 3F, 4S+3T, 4T+2T*, 3A+1lo+3S, 3Lo, 3Lz, BV of 72,8
3. 4Lo, 4F, 3Lo, 3A, 4T+2T, 4T, 3A+1Lo+3F, 3S+3T, BV of 77,0
4. 4T, 4S+2T, 3A+3T, 4S*, 3Lo, 3A, 3F+1Lo+3S, 3Lz, BV of 71,3
5. 4Lz, 4S, 3A+1Lo+3S, 4T, 4T+2T, 3A, 3Lz+3T, 3F, BV of 77,7

under current scoring, the difference between a 3T and 3Lo is of 0.7 points.

Ladies, SP: difference between highest and lowest BV in top 5 is of 1,7 points.
Ladies, FS: difference between highest and lowest BV in top 5 is of 8,1 points. If you take out Kostner (and her monster PCs), the difference drops to 2,1 points. Every 0.7 points matters. In fact, Zagitova won over Medvedeva by 1.31 points - 2 triple loops across two programs.

Men, SP: difference between highest and lowest BV in top 5 is of 1,8 points.
Men, FS: difference between highest and lowest BV in top 5 is of 14,5 points. Now, this is the point. Its not worth to learn a harder combo for extra 0.7. It is not even about the possible GOE losses and mistakes for being a harder combo, it is simply a very small amount compared to the scores men get. Not only that, but quads and quad combos are high risc, which means +2T/+3T combos are also better because they can be added to virtually anything, so thats also safer.

This is exactly why I’d like to see higher values. Right now it’s not worthwhile however if they upped the values relating to loops for example, making the first jump more valuable if in combination with a loop then it’d become worthwhile, and that’s what I’d like to see

el henry said:
Daniel, I do not have a thought on your question, but congratulations on starting your first thread, and with such a detailed post

Thank you &#55357;&#56911;

nussnacker · Jun 21, 2019

Great question that has been bothering me too.
I agree with Moriel’s argument on why men don’t go for loop combos.

But we’ve also seen fewer ladies trying it, due to the risk/reward ratio being completely off. (I.e. Alexandra and Anna stopped trying to do it in their SPs)

Loop combo is a lot more difficult to execute and simply summing up BV of a loop and the first jump doesn’t seem to be right.

And not because I actually want to encourage something, but because loop combos are way more difficult to execute than toe combos, and points don’t seem to reflect that.

There’s a benefit of a loop combo if a skater only does triples: it allows to do 2 lutzes and 2 flips for Alina, instead of repeating 2 3t like everyone else.
But it still doesn’t reflect the actual difficulty of the combo itself.

drivingmissdaisy · Jun 21, 2019

I do think the judges reward the difficulty in PCS when they cannot in TES. A lot of times, skaters upgrade to more difficult combinations despite no increase in BV. Yuna went from doing the 3F-3T to the 3Lz-3T, without really getting any additional BV benefit. Evgenia did two 3-3s when she actually would have been better off doing one 2A-3T instead, as she could have earned more GOE overall. Having separate BV for different combinations adds complexity to the scoring system, and it might not be worth the trouble if the skater can be compensated for the difficulty in other scores.

yume · Jun 21, 2019

The only lady who to my knowledge landed -loop combos for more than a decade is Mao Asada (maybe Miki Ando too). She had 3F-3lo, 3F-2lo-2lo, 3lo-2lo-2lo (a beauty), 2A-2lo-2lo (a beauty).
There are ladies who don't even have 3/2-2T-2lo. They do 3/2-2T-2T. Most of ladies have 3/2T-2lo in their programs. So even doing two 2lo in a row seems difficult for most of ladies. Let alone a 3-3lo.
There are not many seniors who had a solid 3-3lo for more than a season. Because it's way more difficult to rotate than a -3T. We saw for example Bradie give up this season.
So it's unfair that it's worth so little compared to -3T. There should be a bonus.

moriel · Jun 21, 2019

djkaye said:
This is exactly why I’d like to see higher values. Right now it’s not worthwhile however if they upped the values relating to loops for example, making the first jump more valuable if in combination with a loop then it’d become worthwhile, and that’s what I’d like to see

Thank you ��

no reasonable higher value will matter in the FS.

Baron Vladimir · Jun 21, 2019

djkaye said:
This is exactly why I’d like to see higher values. Right now it’s not worthwhile however if they upped the values relating to loops for example, making the first jump more valuable if in combination with a loop then it’d become worthwhile, and that’s what I’d like to see

Trusova 3Lz-3Lo combo in a second half was one of the highest scored triple- triple combo element last season, just after Kihira's 3A-3T combo, and the difference between those two was not that big like people may expect tho. Because judges awarded not just BV of the element but also execution and uniqness/originality/variety that combo brings and as a result she got very high GOE and final scores for it. EDIT: I checked the numbers. Trusova 4T-3T was scored with max of 16.41 points, Kihira 3A-3T 15.06 and Trusova 3Lz-3Lo in a second half 14.49. So you can get a lot of points with 3Lo combo, if you do it like Trusova did

creaturelover · Jun 21, 2019

drivingmissdaisy said:
I do think the judges reward the difficulty in PCS when they cannot in TES. A lot of times, skaters upgrade to more difficult combinations despite no increase in BV. Yuna went from doing the 3F-3T to the 3Lz-3T, without really getting any additional BV benefit. Evgenia did two 3-3s when she actually would have been better off doing one 2A-3T instead, as she could have earned more GOE overall. Having separate BV for different combinations adds complexity to the scoring system, and it might not be worth the trouble if the skater can be compensated for the difficulty in other scores.

I thought Yuna switched to the 3Lz 3T because she had a stronger Lz edge and was beginning to get calls on her flips.... someone correct me if I'm wrong

gkelly · Jun 21, 2019

yume said:
The only lady who to my knowledge landed -loop combos for more than a decade is Mao Asada (maybe Miki Ando too).

Irina Slutskaya.

One of the problems is that loop combinations by nature are less likely to cover as much ice or have as much runout as toe loop combinations. So it's harder to earn as high GOE for +3Lo combinations as +3T combos. The relatively small difference in base value doesn't make up for that.

Another problem with loop combinations is that they seem to be very hard on the hips, probably more so depending on the difficulty of the previous jump. I really do not want to see quad something+3Lo combinations become a thing, at the expense of skaters' long-term health.

Maybe if there is bonus added to the last jump in a combination, that would make +loop combos commensurately more valuable than +toe loop. But not so valuable as to encourage people to try them who really shouldn't, for one reason or another.

Baron Vladimir · Jun 21, 2019

gkelly said:
Irina Slutskaya.

One of the problems is that loop combinations by nature are less likely to cover as much ice or have as much runout as toe loop combinations. So it's harder to earn as high GOE for +3Lo combinations as +3T combos

Again, Trusova's 3Lo combos were judged with +4 and even +5 GOE from the judges last season, and Alina's 3lo combos were getting highest GOE in Olympics year. I believe Tara Lipinski, Miki Ando and Mao Asada too were highly praised by the judges because of the 3Lo combos in their earlier years. So its not that rare to benefit from it like the narative is saying. And you can all watch Trusovas 3Lz-3Lo combo to see why

Now, if someone can perform it like that or she is able to keep it that way in the future is another thing... But it can be highly rewarded, thats for sure...

dorispulaski · Jun 22, 2019

yume said:
The only lady who to my knowledge landed -loop combos for more than a decade is Mao Asada (maybe Miki Ando too). She had 3F-3lo, 3F-2lo-2lo, 3lo-2lo-2lo (a beauty), 2A-2lo-2lo (a beauty).
There are ladies who don't even have 3/2-2T-2lo. They do 3/2-2T-2T. Most of ladies have 3/2T-2lo in their programs. So even doing two 2lo in a row seems difficult for most of ladies. Let alone a 3-3lo.
There are not many seniors who had a solid 3-3lo for more than a season. Because it's way more difficult to rotate than a -3T. We saw for example Bradie give up this season.
So it's unfair that it's worth so little compared to -3T. There should be a bonus.

Also as gkelly said, Irina Slutskaya, but also Tara Lipinski and Midori Ito!
Here's Midori doing double loop triple loop at the 1988 Olympics in the SP. The double loop was required in combination in the SP in the 1987-88 season.
https://youtu.be/Pg8tLyMqTpA?t=56

Tara Lipinski
triple loop triple loop in her 1998 Olympics LP
https://youtu.be/F_lGt6auYDo?t=177

yume · Jun 22, 2019

Thanks for the videos. I would like to see more 2-3 like Midori's. It would be original since 3-2s are more populars. And a 2lo-3lo may be harder to rotate than a 3lo-2lo.
But in my post i talked about landing -loops combos for more than a decade (and landing them almost each season of that decade). Lipinski isn't in that case imo. Slutskaya maybe. I don't know about Midori.

flanker · Jun 22, 2019

For me, the main reason men don't do loop combos are the quads.

During WC there was Michal Březina as a co-commentator in Czech TV and at one occation he talked about rittberger (yes, I'm from Europe and we say rittberger!

). According to him this is probably the least favourite jump among all skaters and most of them avoid it as they can, which is now "easier", exactly due to quads in free program.

Arbitrary · Jun 22, 2019

I see a big problem of POC it doesn't promote the difficulty in variability.

Say having today's classic ladies SP 2A/3F//3Lz3Lo is actually almost as good BV as much more difficult 2A/3Lo//3Lz(d)3F.

And I don't know if we see a much more difficult Dmitriev's Lutz ever again.

Trusova could try but the expecting outcome is petite.

Scott512 · Jun 22, 2019

Yes!

Arent difficult combinations along with difficult transitions how Alina has been able to win big early in her career while not doing quads or triple axels? I think this is one of the reasons she will not be doing quads or triple axles in the near future.

Arbitrary · Jun 22, 2019

Scott512 said:
Yes!

Arent difficult combinations along with difficult transitions how Alina has been able to win big early in her career while not doing quads or triple axels? I think this is one of the reasons she will not be doing quads or triple axles in the near future.

I'm afraid she has no future in FS except the near one. Time is running. And she is not 18 even. Not a fully grown up person by Russian standards. Less to say by European standards where 21 is the age.

The next generation (those coming after Trusova and Kihira) is almost ready to lock horns. Quads will become a necessity and triple axel a mandatory soon.

ISU may raise the age limit and loose in money. And they cannot tolerate even a small decrease of popularity. Too costly.

Ice Dance · Jun 22, 2019

I don't really want to see the value increased because of the injury issue. Like with the throw quads in pairs, I totally respect the difficulty of the combinations; but for me it's nervewracking worrying that athletes may feel they have to put themselves at risk in order to compete these particular elements. Maybe it's an inaccurate assessment, as obviously all new risky elements are hazardous and therefore lead to injuries. I'd be happy to see data that shows more athletes can have successful longterm careers with the triple loop as the second part of their combinations. We may get it. But I'm still seeing athletes--the most recent one I can think of is Matsuda--having to drop it so I do worry.

kolyadafan2002 · Jun 22, 2019

Ice Dance said:
I don't really want to see the value increased because of the injury issue. Like with the throw quads in pairs, I totally respect the difficulty of the combinations; but for me it's nervewracking worrying that athletes may feel they have to put themselves at risk in order to compete these particular elements. Maybe it's an inaccurate assessment, as obviously all new risky elements are hazardous and therefore lead to injuries. I'd be happy to see data that shows more athletes can have successful longterm careers with the triple loop as the second part of their combinations. We may get it. But I'm still seeing athletes--the most recent one I can think of is Matsuda--having to drop it so I do worry.

Loop combinations don’t injure people any more than toe combinations. Right now the new trend is 4T+3A+SEQ. this is more likely to injure people than toe or loop.
It’s not a new element, it has been around since 1980’s.

Should there be a greater incentive for loop combinations?

kolyadafan2002

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