Yuzuru Hanyu: 2019-2021 | Page 37 | Golden Skate

Yuzuru Hanyu: 2019-2021

annajzdf

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
I'm honestly perplexed by the outrage, some things to consider:

The way Yuzu not only stepped out, but almost tumbled out of his two first quads in Origin, would be considered two 'serious errors'. I think everyone knows that the rulebook says to cap PCS in such a case.
It's no coincidence he was awarded exactly 8.75 in PE + IN and 9.25 in CO by most judges, since those are the maximum possible scores in this case. It certainly looks like the majority of judges would have given higher scores if it weren't for the technical mistakes.

It is also not unusual to see a drop in the SS score in the case of several bad jump landings, even though there's always some disagreement on whether one should impact the other or not.

It is actually the japanese judge that showed blatant favouritism in his PCS scores and doesn't seem to follow the rulebook, meanwhile the american judges were all middle of the pack in PCS as well as in GOE (it's all in the protocol, not sure how this can even be disputed).

I agree that two of Yuzu's UR calls were not a 100 % clear and I would have given him the benefit of the doubt, but the jumps in question did have suspicious landings so I can definitely imagine that from the panel's perspective they looked UR.
And they did otoh ignore 3-4 other jumps that looked clearly UR (the 3A in his combo f.i.) or least very borderline to me, so I guess it was just a bad tech panel in general. But that proves their incompetence, doesn't mean they're purposely messing with the scores inventing phantom URs. :shrug:
 

Imov

Medalist
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
He thinks the most important is skating clean with the highest level layout, so he wants to upgrade his BV as much as possible. Getting +GOE is one thing, but he learned in WC that he could not win with only that. About 4A, he can fully rotate it but can't stand/land on it yet. Only he has to do is landing, but it is very difficult. The more he practices, the more he gets the risk of injury. When he rotates 4A, he uses 98% of his body strength, and he thinks he needs to lower that percentage to actually land it.

https://twitter.com/yuzu1207_s/status/1173264597299556352

And this is very cute interview starts from 1:15.

Interviewer: Are you going to quit if you succeeded on 4A?
Yuzuru: I don't know. I might do 4F (laughs).
Interviewer: Beijing...Beijing...
Yuzuru: Beijing (laughs). Honestly, I feel I must not go if I lose. I really don't want to show myself being unsightly. If I keep competing by Beijing Olympics, I will be competing aiming for 4A and all kinds of quad, which I've been practicing with right now. If I was able to be always strong and there was Beijing Olympics the way ahead, everyone would be happy (laughs). What a poor comment (laughs), I am sorry. How many years have I been giving interview...(facepalm).

https://twitter.com/yuzu1207_s/status/1173267204629905410

Thanks for the translations.

Yuzu we will be happy and continuously support you until Beijing 2022 or even beyond or before that. It depends on how you want to go we will be there for you.
Honestly his 10 season run has been so productive and exciting.
I just wish they give him the respect and dignity he deserves as an athlete.

An athlete who loves the sport, never complains, works hard , a great amabassor and most of all a humanitarian.
Sure there are a lot of the atheletes in this discipline are good and responsible people too.
However, checking the ratio of how they spend their time for themself and other causes, we know Yuzu gives more of himself to humanity.
We know there will be times he is not his best and can be beaten, but he doesn't deserve to be deliberately brought down for whatever reason they have in mind.
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
I'm honestly perplexed by the outrage, some things to consider:

The way Yuzu not only stepped out, but almost tumbled out of his two first quads in Origin, would be considered two 'serious errors'. I think everyone knows that the rulebook says to cap PCS in such a case.
It's no coincidence he was awarded exactly 8.75 in PE + IN and 9.25 in CO by most judges, since those are the maximum possible scores in this case. It certainly looks like the majority of judges would have given higher scores if it weren't for the technical mistakes.

It is also not unusual to see a drop in the SS score in the case of several bad jump landings, even though there's always some disagreement on whether one should impact the other or not.

It is actually the japanese judge that showed blatant favouritism in his PCS scores and doesn't seem to follow the rulebook, meanwhile the american judges were all middle of the pack in PCS as well as in GOE (it's all in the protocol, not sure how this can even be disputed).

I agree that two of Yuzu's UR calls were not a 100 % clear and I would have given him the benefit of the doubt, but the jumps in question did have suspicious landings so I can definitely imagine that from the panel's perspective they looked UR.
And they did otoh ignore 3-4 other jumps that looked clearly UR (the 3A in his combo f.i.) or least very borderline to me, so I guess it was just a bad tech panel in general. But that proves their incompetence, doesn't mean they're purposely messing with the scores inventing phantom URs. :shrug:

Having seen the jumps in question from various angles from fan cameras, I respectfully disagree with your assessment that his 4Ts had suspicious landings. Just take a look at this. https://twitter.com/VthvfdA69ELLLQd/status/1173197054698557441?s=20 It can't get cleaner than this. If this is UR then 99% of all 4Ts are also UR.
 
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
What I learned from years of debate in the competition thread (and I am so happy that I do not go there anymore) is that any one of us sees a different thing from the same video :shocked: Though I have accepted it but it is still a mystery for me :confused:

What I see is that only 4S was under rotated and I am happy that so many others think like me even though it does not include the judges and the tech panel :confused:
 

annajzdf

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Having seen the jumps in question from various angles from fan cameras, I respectfully disagree with your assessment that his 4Ts had suspicious landings. Just take a look at this. https://twitter.com/VthvfdA69ELLLQd/status/1173197054698557441?s=20 It can't get cleaner than this. If this is UR then 99% of all 4Ts are also UR.

Actually, I never said which jumps I was referring to ;). And the ones I had in mind were the 4S and his second 4T, the one in combo.

In the 4S he seemed a little bit out of axis/not over his right side and I think his blade hit the ice in a bad angle, hence the fall. That would certainly make a panel look for a possible UR causing the fall, and that's why I call it a 'suspicious' landing.

The second 4T in Origin did look a bit short on landing because it had a slight snap to it, at least from what I could see watching the livestream. And assuming it looked the same to the panel, that saw it live, it is once again what I would call 'suspicious' because I would expect them to take a closer look at it.

The one you're showing me in that fancam does indeed look pretty much ok and the landing looks rather smooth, at least from that perspective. It did look pretty rough on the livestream though, which showed it from another angle and was filmed more on ice level, so possibly closer to what the panel might have seen, given their seats?

Also, given the low quality of fancams, livestreams and even official broadcasts being uploaded onto the internet, missing important frames, with their grainy picture and blurriness when things are in motion, I always find it hard to tell in all those borderline cases and unless a jump is clearly UR.
Add to that different angles showing different things and it gets even harder (I've even witnessed this in official broadcasts, when a seemingly perfect jump landing suddenly looked totally different in the slo-mo replay that showed it from another perspective and I couldn't believe this was the exact same jump).

So this only proves that the tech panel would benefit from reviewing jumps from different angles and a good quality recording, not that there's some type of fraud going on. :shrug:
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Actually, I never said which jumps I was referring to ;). And the ones I had in mind were the 4S and his second 4T, the one in combo.

In the 4S he seemed a little bit out of axis/not over his right side and I think his blade hit the ice in a bad angle, hence the fall. That would certainly make a panel look for a possible UR causing the fall, and that's why I call it a 'suspicious' landing.

The second 4T in Origin did look a bit short on landing because it had a slight snap to it, at least from what I could see watching the livestream. And assuming it looked the same to the panel, that saw it live, it is once again what I would call 'suspicious' because I would expect them to take a closer look at it.

The one you're showing me in that fancam does indeed look pretty much ok and the landing looks rather smooth, at least from that perspective. It did look pretty rough on the livestream though, which showed it from another angle and was filmed more on ice level, so possibly closer to what the panel might have seen, given their seats?

Also, given the low quality of fancams, livestreams and even official broadcasts being uploaded onto the internet, missing important frames, with their grainy picture and blurriness when things are in motion, I always find it hard to tell in all those borderline cases and unless a jump is clearly UR.
Add to that different angles showing different things and it gets even harder (I've even witnessed this in official broadcasts, when a seemingly perfect jump landing suddenly looked totally different in the slo-mo replay that showed it from another perspective and I couldn't believe this was the exact same jump).

So this only proves that the tech panel would benefit from reviewing jumps from different angles and a good quality recording, not that there's some type of fraud going on. :shrug:
https://youtu.be/5klix7gfXIc?t=22 Here is the combo in 1080P so quiet high quality. -it's clean.
I don't personally think any deliberate consparicy or fraud is there or can be proven, but I bad tech call is a bad tech call. And such things can change the outcome of competitions to the detriment of the sport as a whole.
The 4S was borderline and might have been called -but they didn't.
 

asiacheetah

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 15, 2017
I'm honestly perplexed by the outrage, some things to consider:

The way Yuzu not only stepped out, but almost tumbled out of his two first quads in Origin, would be considered two 'serious errors'. I think everyone knows that the rulebook says to cap PCS in such a case.
It's no coincidence he was awarded exactly 8.75 in PE + IN and 9.25 in CO by most judges, since those are the maximum possible scores in this case. It certainly looks like the majority of judges would have given higher scores if it weren't for the technical mistakes.

It is also not unusual to see a drop in the SS score in the case of several bad jump landings, even though there's always some disagreement on whether one should impact the other or not.

I have a problem with the ISU rulebook. This seems to only impact people who regularly scores over 9.0 in PCS. So really only Yuzu, Javi before he retired, apparently Nathan is a 9+ PCS scorer now, and I think Kolyada gets 9 PCS.

What is with this uneven punishment?
 

yude

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Minoru Sano appeared on TV Asahi today, his commentary was very positive and made me smile unexpectedly :)

They showed Yuzuru's spins and steps in Origin at first and Sano sensei explained Yuzuru did very well and received all level 4. Next, they showed 4T-1E-3S , he said Yuzuru did 8 rotations in one combo, it was so hard to do but he did it even in the 2nd half of the program, which skaters could not do unless they were confident in their jumps. 4T was judged as UR in the combo, but Sano himself thought it was perfect. The blond lady in the studio said she had known Yuzuru's jumps were great in general, but she always felt his performance, body expression, and his world view, all reached all over the world without any word, and she thought it was so amazing. Sano said in one of the videos below that Yuzuru's performances were super good at ACI compared to the past.

https://twitter.com/yuzu1207_s/status/1173462794894659587

I don't translate these but Sano sensei looked very excited talking about 4A with all the images, he and people at the studio said BV of 4A was too low :laugh:

https://twitter.com/yuzu1207_s/status/1173463266489589762
https://twitter.com/yuzu1207_s/status/1173464909910134784
https://twitter.com/yuzu1207_s/status/1173465182648991744
https://twitter.com/yuzu1207_s/status/1173465110062321664
 

ankifeather

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Yuzu's annual Karaoke session... I feel sorry for the guy next to him, he is trying so hard to avoid Yuzu's helicopter arms hitting him :laugh2:

There is a TV crew filming him. Cannot wait for the TV station's "music video" version to come out.

http://twitter.com/YuzuruHanyuMuse/status/1173060269532229633?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1173060269532229633&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fplanethanyu.com%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26module%3Dsystem%26controller%3Dembed%26url%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FYuzuruHanyuMuse%2Fstatus%2F1173060269532229633
 

annajzdf

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
I have a problem with the ISU rulebook. This seems to only impact people who regularly scores over 9.0 in PCS. So really only Yuzu, Javi before he retired, apparently Nathan is a 9+ PCS scorer now, and I think Kolyada gets 9 PCS.

What is with this uneven punishment?

True. But this is not the point here.
People like to complain whenever they feel that the judges don't follow the rulebook, yet when the judges do apply the rules correctly and it's to the disadvantage of people's favourites, they suddenly get criticised for it.

The same is true for tech calls. It is usally the unfavourable calls that get pointed out with claims of politicking/bias. What I don't see is people trying to find/exclude proof/examples that could possibly falsify their claims. (this is human nature of course, and I'm sure everyone falls prey to that)
Like in the case of ACL the panel was all over the place for me, so it looks more like bad calls in general and not some scheme.

So yeah, sorry for derailing the thread. :pray:
And for what it's worth, I really enjoyed Yuzu's performance of Origin and it impressed me more than Worlds, so I was happy with this outing either way.
 

ankifeather

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
True. But this is not the point here.
People like to complain whenever they feel that the judges don't follow the rulebook, yet when the judges do apply the rules correctly and it's to the disadvantage of people's favourites, they suddenly get criticised for it.

The same is true for tech calls. It is usally the unfavourable calls that get pointed out with claims of politicking/bias. What I don't see is people trying to find/exclude proof/examples that could possibly falsify their claims. (this is human nature of course, and I'm sure everyone falls prey to that)
Like in the case of ACL the panel was all over the place for me, so it looks more like bad calls in general and not some scheme.

So yeah, sorry for derailing the thread. :pray:
And for what it's worth, I really enjoyed Yuzu's performance of Origin and it impressed me more than Worlds, so I was happy with this outing either way.

Except what is considered 'serious mistake' is not defined with specificity in the rule book, so left to judges' decision. Last year in Helsinki he made similar mistakes - two step outs where he turn-overed but held on and continued on straight away like he did in ACI, and landings on some jumps were similar - but he got PCS 92+ there, so the cap didn't apply. You may say the judges just have different standards between the two competitions, but so the point remain, the standards being applied at ACI were harsher. BTW, you yourself also jumped to national bias conclusions by claiming the Japanese judge has blatant favouritism, except this judge actually has a history of giving Yuzu lower marks, and is on the list of 'unfriendly judges' fans takes note of.

As already said, one wrong call for a skater can be "oh bad luck, panel made a mistake', and that is how people reacted before like Helsinki last year with his 4L, but multiple ones is beyond acceptable standard regardless of the real reason for it. You can't just expect people to sit back and not criticise when 12+ marks were wiped off just because.
 

JustRozy

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 30, 2015
Country
United-States
I am grateful for the thorough, informed, and above all very civil discussion in the last couple of pages! It has helped me to understand more of the complexities of this fascinating sport, all in the context of love of Yuzu's brilliant skating. Thank you!
 

eaglehelang

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
True. But this is not the point here.
People like to complain whenever they feel that the judges don't follow the rulebook, yet when the judges do apply the rules correctly and it's to the disadvantage of people's favourites, they suddenly get criticised for it.

The same is true for tech calls. It is usally the unfavourable calls that get pointed out with claims of politicking/bias. What I don't see is people trying to find/exclude proof/examples that could possibly falsify their claims. (this is human nature of course, and I'm sure everyone falls prey to that)
Like in the case of ACL the panel was all over the place for me, so it looks more like bad calls in general and not some scheme.

So yeah, sorry for derailing the thread. :pray:
And for what it's worth, I really enjoyed Yuzu's performance of Origin and it impressed me more than Worlds, so I was happy with this outing either way.

A side by side vid has been posted on twitter on the 4T that was called UR. SP & FS of Yuzuru doing the 4T the exact same way. The SP one had GOEs of 4&5 and the FS one called UR.
The link to the twitter thread has been posted some pages back.
+++ the fact that this season, the rules on UR has been changed to be less stringent.

The 2 step outs are not specified in the rule book. A fall is automatic cap on PCS on everybody's mind, step outs are not.

Added to that, there are members on panel of judges who have been known to underscore Yuzuru, since 2015. The link to this has also been posted.

All this gross incompetence should be appalling. It is appalling for those of us who also follow other sports cos it would have raised a ruckus & formal protests made by the respective associations.
Then they wonder why figure skating dont get respected as a sport.
 

hanyuufan5

✨**:。*
Medalist
Joined
May 19, 2018
It is appalling for those of us who also follow other sports cos it would have raised a ruckus & formal protests made by the respective associations.
Then they wonder why figure skating dont get respected as a sport.

Okay, now I'm imagining Nikolay Karpol (Russian volleyball coach who yells a lot) screaming his head off at the judges on Yuzu's behalf and feel a bit better at least for now. :laugh:

My mom keeps asking why they don't just appeal Yuzu's (under)scores. I'm never quite sure what to tell her...
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
I just finished watching a volleyball match last night (Japan vs S.Korea) and I'm always impressed at the quality of their video replay whenever one team contests a ref-call. It's usually done calmly and quickly. How I wish FS could benefit from this kind of surround, high quality judging equipment. -This wouldn't cancel out the need for human judges, but it would enhance the accuracy of the calls for sure. -No longer can the excuse be made that they only had one angle to watch in the replay, they should invest in more accurate judging equipment.
 

hanyuufan5

✨**:。*
Medalist
Joined
May 19, 2018
I just finished watching a volleyball match last night (Japan vs S.Korea) and I'm always impressed at the quality of their video replay whenever one team contests a ref-call. It's usually done calmly and quickly. How I wish FS could benefit from this kind of surround, high quality judging equipment. -This wouldn't cancel out the need for human judges, but it would enhance the accuracy of the calls for sure. -No longer can the excuse be made that they only had one angle to watch in the replay, they should invest in more accurate judging equipment.

Yeah, and they often rule in favor of the player/coach!
 

Beckaboomer

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 2, 2018
I’ve now watched Yuzu’s free skate from ACI multiple times and honestly I think the choreo and performance/interpretation are the best they’ve ever been. The only possible exception for me is the media day video from last year, which had some great moments that never came back (oh how I miss you Ina Bauer-into 3A you were STUNNING).
 

eaglehelang

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Okay, now I'm imagining Nikolay Karpol (Russian volleyball coach who yells a lot) screaming his head off at the judges on Yuzu's behalf and feel a bit better at least for now. :laugh:

My mom keeps asking why they don't just appeal Yuzu's (under)scores. I'm never quite sure what to tell her...

Haha, I was actually remembering the badminton 2X OG champ, Lin Dan complaining to media abt no video replay at court he was playing. Video replay is to review line calls(in out),service fault(higher than waist). not all courts have them, mainly used for later matches SemiF, Finals.
Lin Dan, the driven go getter guy that he is, would not hesitate to point out the flaws of the World Association.

Incompetences like what we have seen in FS, oh boy, I can imagine the level of protests. thats not even counting football(soccer in US) cos i dont follow football.
 
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