SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

lariko · Feb 15, 2020

rosy14 said:
All this stuff began to appear (pushed by Bianchetti’s mom) when USFed didn’t have a big jumper, and RusFed and Japan had at least one.Now they are revamping it because of Russian girls doing quads. Assuming all of them will arrive in Peking in 2022 (a big if) they will quite probably retire, and all these changes will become suddenly out of date, especially if Alyssa Liu stays at the top when senior.
If they want big audience, they need big champions, charismatic champions, and check that the judges don’t steel them of their well deserved victory. That’ s all.

Given how tepid US seems to be toward marvellous, once in ten generations Nathan Chen, despite him being an ideal young man in every way imaginable, and how some of the Russian young ladies with ultra-c elements are also high PCS, I find this hypothesis harder to accept than even the Brown’s DaVinci Code, Figure Skating Edition.

Any good Russian Theory imo has to take into account that they have five of everything except for leading man.

Mathman · Feb 15, 2020

TontoK said:
How would you feel about increasing the penalty for a fall? I'd be OK with it. Three points or so wouldn't bother me at all.

The thing about risk/reward is that the risk should be somewhat tied to the potential reward. And besides, when someone says, "It really didn't disrupt the program" they are lying. Because it did. We notice it, and savvy fans spend the rest of the program recalculating potential tech maximums and predicting impact to PCS and so forth.

I am pretty much OK with the current rules. The whole philosophy of the IJS is not to take points away for mistakes but rather to award points for each accomplishment that the skater achieves. So I look at the scoring from the point of view of "opportunity loss."

If you plan a quad but pop it into a double, the scoring system does not take any points away. It's just that you lost the opportunity to score higher.

For falls, if you plan a quad Salchow you are aiming for 9.70 points, or maybe more with positive GOE. If you fall, but other aspects of the jump are OK, especially complete rotations, then you get 3.85 points, leaving 5.85 "opportunity points" on the table.

As for disrupting the program, that's what the program components are for. If a fall (either on an element or just because you hit a rut while gliding innocently along) causes the overall choreography, presentation or musical interpretation to suffer -- or skating skills, for that matter -- then the skater earns 8.75 in those categories instead of the 9.25 that he had the opportunity to earn. (This is not just hypothetical. Taking our favorite whipping boy, Jason Brown, as an example, he does earn solid 9.5s and 9.75s when he doesn't fall on a quad attempt, and maybe 8.75s or 9.0 when he does -- losing the opportunity to score higher).

rosy14 · Feb 15, 2020

lariko said:
Given how tepid US seems to be toward marvellous, once in ten generations Nathan Chen, despite him being an ideal young man in every way imaginable, and how some of the Russian young ladies with ultra-c elements are also high PCS, I find this hypothesis harder to accept than even the Brown’s DaVinci Code, Figure Skating Edition.

Any good Russian Theory imo has to take into account that they have five of everything except for leading man.

Do you ACTUALLY believe Nathan Chen is scoring so high because USFed is tepid with him ? In which alternative universe do you live ?
Russians may not have a leading man NOW, but little Russians ( Eteri’s, CSKA’s) are growing, all with quads.

lariko · Feb 15, 2020

rosy14 said:
Do you ACTUALLY believe Nathan Chen is scoring so high because USFed is tepid with him ? In which alternative universe do you live ?
Russians may not have a leading man NOW, but little Russians ( Eteri’s, CSKA’s) are growing, all with quads.

The proposed rule changes do not benefit Chen, and I live in the ordered Universe where Chen does win because Chen is superb, and can adapt to any requirements because he skates that good, no matter how artistry is judged.

Young Russian males are no more notable technicians than those in the other countries or show promise to be superior technicians to the current senior male Russians. Mozalev is on the list of four skaters/pairs that makes me buy cakes when they win big, but I can’t see international conspiracies brewing on his (or his also very good peers) account in year 2020.

The ability to have Artistry as high scoring and decisive factor is a weapon with a hundred blades, and its most destructive potential is that it can be directed against anyone.

No invasive, large overhaul of rules imo is done in the name of those who come and go, aka individual skaters. It is done for those who stay in their jobs as officials etc.

Mathman · Feb 15, 2020

[email protected] said:
No one claimed that backloading was not more difficult than the "balanced routine". The challenge was to find the artistic expression to make it work. DQ was a big hit. But now that there is no reward why bother? Risk without reward is meaningless.

Actually, that is quite a telling critique of figure skating under the IJS (or maybe just a critique of human nature). People will do anything for points, and they will do nothing if you do not give them any points. A competitive skater would be a fool if she thought it it would be cool to do a series of single Axels alternating clockwise and counterclockwise, like Carol Heiss (not enough points)

(O the times, O the customs! :drama:

)

kolyadafan2002 · Feb 15, 2020

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2020...sBH4pkUpGupMZdGMXDhg5tjU_pLlbFKe1UHaBl50W8sg8 So from this essentially, both programs will be 3:30 in length, and have non-descript quantity of jumps as of yet. The technical program will be weighted 60% TES 40% PCS , and the Artistic program weighted 60% PCS and 40% TES. I have no clue what the jump situation will be like between the two programs, and that will be the deciding factor for if this is a good idea or not.

I personally would love this (for selfish reasons for my personal figure skating programs)

Mathman · Feb 15, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
I have no clue what the jump situation will be like between the two programs, and that will be the deciding factor for if this is a good idea or not.

That is the whole thing right there. Until that part of the proposal is announced, we are just throwing words around in the dark. :yes:

TontoK · Feb 15, 2020

The ISU is routinely criticized for not acknowledging the input of fans in deciding all sorts of things.

This thread is a fair representation of why that's a bad faith argument.

There doesn't seem to be a fan consensus.

If i were the ISU, I wouldn't pay any attention to us either, at least not in a meaningful way.

The ISU were pretty smart coming up with these ridiculous fan-voting awards. It lets people feel like they're actually making a difference, while they shape the sport however they want. It's a smart strategy.

lariko · Feb 15, 2020

TontoK said:
The ISU is routinely criticized for not acknowledging the input of fans in deciding all sorts of things.

This thread is a fair representation of why that's a bad faith argument.

There doesn't seem to be a fan consensus.

If i were the ISU, I wouldn't pay any attention to us either, at least not in a meaningful way.

The ISU were pretty smart coming up with these ridiculous fan-voting awards. It lets people feel like they're actually making a difference, while they shape the sport however they want. It's a smart strategy.

Oh, absolutely. The fan love metrics are great to collect and make official. However, they should not curate the results. Yes, even if Hanyu ends up winning every category. That’s the whole point of love.

Elspeth · Feb 15, 2020

What about splitting the judging panels into TES and PCS? I've never heard any fan argument against that.

nussnacker · Feb 15, 2020

lariko said:
The ability to have Artistry as high scoring and decisive factor is a weapon with a hundred blades, and its most destructive potential is that it can be directed against anyone.

No invasive, large overhaul of rules imo is done in the name of those who come and go, aka individual skaters. It is done for those who stay in their jobs as officials etc.

You took the words right out of my mouth!!!

P.S. Can I also compliment how incredibly well you express your thoughts? I’m quite frankly always amazed, when you say things I‘d want to say, but a lot better than I could

Elucidus · Feb 15, 2020

https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/skatingfenec/2727964.html
Interesting article (in Russian, but you can Google translate it) about short track video replay judging system and it's comparison with figure skating. Tl;dr short track video judging system is vastly superior than figure skating. They utilize multiple huge good quality cameras and monitors with deliberately coinciding angles with what is seeing tv viewers on replays. Moreover, they show exactly all calls being made in video to viewers during replays illustrating graphically why they did them exactly. Also they introduced judging decisions challenges system - where athlete's team can dispute one decision per competition. Considering that short track is child of the same ISU - it raises the question why they can't implement the same system for figure skating? Why the level of financing is so different despite it being the same organization?
IMO, those questions should be decided first and they are gonna bring the long desired transparency to judging and much more benefit as a result to the whole sport - than some dubious rules changes which nobody even needs. For example this system in short track was implemented recently - but it gave the great boost in popularity to this sport already. This really works.

lariko · Feb 15, 2020

nussnacker said:
You took the words right out of my mouth!!!

P.S. Can I also compliment how incredibly well you express your thoughts? I’m quite frankly always amazed, when you say things I‘d want to say, but a lot better than I could

Aww, thank you so much! I am an amateur writer, so it makes me happy whenever people like whatever I write, lol.

madmax · Feb 15, 2020

Mathman said:
(O the times, O the customs! )

I didn't know that Catilina succeeded to Cinquanta as President of the ISU :scratch2:

CellarDweller · Feb 15, 2020

kolyadafan2002 said:
https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2020...sBH4pkUpGupMZdGMXDhg5tjU_pLlbFKe1UHaBl50W8sg8 So from this essentially, both programs will be 3:30 in length, and have non-descript quantity of jumps as of yet. The technical program will be weighted 60% TES 40% PCS , and the Artistic program weighted 60% PCS and 40% TES. I have no clue what the jump situation will be like between the two programs, and that will be the deciding factor for if this is a good idea or not.

I personally would love this (for selfish reasons for my personal figure skating programs)

I'm intrigued by this. Of course, when I started watching skating, the the SP was called the Technical program and the LP was called the Artistic program, and the scores were were the 6.0 system. If I'm remembering correctly, the technique was rewarded more in the TP and artistry was rewarded more in the AP. So, this basically would be a situation of the new scoring system having the rules of the old scoring system applied to it.

Could this work?

I also wonder about the length of time of the programs. I'm not sure that 3:30 is enough time to put together a program, especially since some moves (while artistic when performed well) can be 'time eaters'......spread eagles, spirals, step sequences can easily take up lot of time. I would think that the current running times of the programs would be fine under this new system, if it comes to pass.

Mista Ekko · Feb 15, 2020

This'll probably end up the way it always does:

A problem is addressed
And then a solution is implemented that doesn't actually solve it

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 15, 2020

lariko said:
Every joke has a kernel of truth. Judges do love Brown. Do they love him enough to advance him to the World’s podium, and what colour medal, that remains to be seen. If Brown lands his quad I have a hard time seeing any other scenario this year; without it, there is a slight chance he won’t... that’s outside of the extreme ups and downs of fortune.

Until Brown lands a quad or unless Chen and Hanyu all implode, unfortunately he will never win Worlds or the Olympics. A decade ago, maybe, a la Buttle, but not now.

Mathman · Feb 15, 2020

This question also occurred to me. Suppose you are a casual channel-flipper who enjoys watching an occasional figure skating competition but doesn't know a quad Salchow from a Biellmann postition. Which would be worse:

(a) The winner jumps a lot of quads and racks up big points, but the viewer says, "This guy can't skate at all, how the heck did he win anything?" or

(b) The winner does not do any spectacular jumps but delivers an emotionally and esthetically pleasing performance. The viewer says, "How the heck did he win? Nice skating, but he didn't do any athletic leaping and bounding like the other guy did."

(I predict that the majority of people on this forum are positive that they know the answer. I don't, though.)

Mathman · Feb 15, 2020

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Until Brown lands a quad or unless Chen and Hanyu all implode, unfortunately he will never win Worlds or the Olympics. A decade ago, maybe, a la Buttle, but not now.

Still, it might make for some interesting scenarios --maybe not specifically for Brown, but in general for a skater whose blade skills and performance components are top notch, but they can't possibly ever win anything against the big jumpers as things stand now.

At present, Jason, with or without a quad, will be 15-20 points behind Nathan in the short, and fall to 40 behind after the long. That's just arithmetic.

Under the new proposal, maybe the rules will be such that, yes, the skater with an artistic flair and outstanding blade-to-ice skills will still lose the first program (the Technical Program) by 20 points. But the only thing that carries over is the placement, not the points. If our hypothetical Jason-like skater could manage third or fourth in the Technical Program (PCSs still count, just not so much), and if the balanced program requirements in the Artistic program call for, say, only 4 jumping passes and no more than one quad, he might have an outside chance of squeezing out a narrow win. This first place counts just as much toward the final outcome as the big jumper's first place in the Technical Program, no matter how many poiunts he racked up by doing 5 quads.

It's like the world series in baseball. One team might win the first game by a score of 20 to nothing, but lose the second with 1 run to 2. The series is tied, one game apiece.

lpt · Feb 15, 2020

@JohnnyGWeir
While I think there needs to be more balance between most skaters technical & artistic abilities, the skaters who are winning events combine both already. Skating is a sport. This would be kinda like asking Usain Bolt to run slower so everyone has a chance.

https://twitter.com/JohnnyGWeir/status/1228785903142932482

SP and FS replaced by Technical and Artistic programs?

lariko

Mathman

rosy14

lariko

Mathman

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada

Mathman

TontoK

Hot Tonto

lariko

Elspeth

nussnacker

one and only

Elucidus

Match Penalty

lariko

madmax

CellarDweller

Ice Time

Mista Ekko

CanadianSkaterGuy

Mathman

Mathman

lpt

Similar threads

Connect with us