JGP Riga Cup: Thoughts and Highlights
- Thread starter gsk8
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- Joined
- Nov 19, 2017
Highlight of this event (as with previous one) was biased work of tech panel. Again. Which limited my enjoyment of the event considerably. I try to repost my deleted posts here since it was hinted that it will be supposedly allowed in that topic:
Having questionable judging on other competitions can't and shouldn't be justification for questionable judging on this particular competition. Moreover, even if some Russian skaters benefitted from something - they were other skaters - who have nothing to do with Maiia and Dasha. One shouldn't be responsible "for the sins" of others - especially if we are talking about two young athlethes who is only starting to build their career - practically from zero, without any reputation helping them.
Just go and rewatch Matsuike's video. Ted Barton: "Little underrotation on triple lutz. Triple toeloop as well." So she had two mistakes also - which should have noticeable impact on scores. Maybe they are not as big as fall - but difference between skaters were mere three points! Even one UR call would be enough to reverse podium places.
Again - I am not resent about Maiia scores. They were fair. I am resent about double standarts. If you are going to call one skater - you must call other as well. Else - it will turn to biased injustice, pure and simple. I am really surprised you went as low as operating terms such as "who is deserved medal more" from 6.0 era 0_0 It's just quintessence of subjectivity. It doesn't matter whether Maiia program was successful or failed, or how good or bad she was looking. In IJS system all that matters is particular sum of elements points plus components points. If she had quality elements and SS -she should get lots of points - and she can even get some medal with it. It doesn't and shouldn't have anything to do with whether she "deserved" that medal or not. We should respect that system.
As for Rino's PCS - while she is decent - they were considerably overscored. Her skate was slow, on two legs mostly, and have very juniorish feel to it. She shouldn't be nowhere near Maiia's PCS score too.
True. Still, I am going to insist that having flat edges calls wasn't going to hurt her as much as two UR calls for Rino. URs lowers BV and GOEs while edge calls - only GOE. That and also Rion had URed triples in her SP as well - which weren't called too. She is typical 160-170 range skater - who have never seen such high scores in her life. She was put not on her place by judges just to make illusion of equal competition with Russians
P.S.: btw, Usacheva was robbed of gold too. Haein Lee had HUGE UR on toeloop in her SP - which wasn't called. Again, double standarts :disagree:
P.P.S.: rewatched Maiia's "3Lo<" in FP too - actually there was only step out - UR was wrongly called as the jump is rotated enough. Wow, Lake Placid's TP joke judging wasn't actually that bad, huh :sarcasm:
there's no conspiracy, russian ladies have benefited greatly from questionable calls before. korean, japanese, and american skaters also benefit from bad calls sometimes as well
Having questionable judging on other competitions can't and shouldn't be justification for questionable judging on this particular competition. Moreover, even if some Russian skaters benefitted from something - they were other skaters - who have nothing to do with Maiia and Dasha. One shouldn't be responsible "for the sins" of others - especially if we are talking about two young athlethes who is only starting to build their career - practically from zero, without any reputation helping them.
Ted said Rino’s lutz looked “a little underrotated“. That‘s a bit different from your “SHE WAS SO OVERSCORED MAIIA WAS ROBBED THE UR WAS SO OBVIOUS OMG CONSPIRACY“ I mean, sorry, but come on.... Even if you call that jump UR, overall, Maiia still didn‘t have a good skate, she had a fall and a step out. Two big mistakes. Rino had one smaller mistake. Her program might not have been particularly interesting but she does interpret it nicely and she has good speed, flow and skating skills. Maiia seemed nervous. She did fight for those combos, though and good for her. She showed grit and improvement and this is remarkable considering she last skated about two weeks ago. I prefer Maiia’s skating to Rino’s, I think she stands out more naturally even if her program is pretty bad. So, I’m definitely not biased for Rino who I have to admit haven’t ever even seen skate before yesterday. But I still really cannot say that Maiia deserved the bronze today, not when she herself had a rough skate and was up against a skater who performed so well. I‘m just tired of your constant claims of ”anti-Russian judging“. Like... what even...?
Just go and rewatch Matsuike's video. Ted Barton: "Little underrotation on triple lutz. Triple toeloop as well." So she had two mistakes also - which should have noticeable impact on scores. Maybe they are not as big as fall - but difference between skaters were mere three points! Even one UR call would be enough to reverse podium places.
Again - I am not resent about Maiia scores. They were fair. I am resent about double standarts. If you are going to call one skater - you must call other as well. Else - it will turn to biased injustice, pure and simple. I am really surprised you went as low as operating terms such as "who is deserved medal more" from 6.0 era 0_0 It's just quintessence of subjectivity. It doesn't matter whether Maiia program was successful or failed, or how good or bad she was looking. In IJS system all that matters is particular sum of elements points plus components points. If she had quality elements and SS -she should get lots of points - and she can even get some medal with it. It doesn't and shouldn't have anything to do with whether she "deserved" that medal or not. We should respect that system.
As for Rino's PCS - while she is decent - they were considerably overscored. Her skate was slow, on two legs mostly, and have very juniorish feel to it. She shouldn't be nowhere near Maiia's PCS score too.
True. Still, I am going to insist that having flat edges calls wasn't going to hurt her as much as two UR calls for Rino. URs lowers BV and GOEs while edge calls - only GOE. That and also Rion had URed triples in her SP as well - which weren't called too. She is typical 160-170 range skater - who have never seen such high scores in her life. She was put not on her place by judges just to make illusion of equal competition with Russians
P.S.: btw, Usacheva was robbed of gold too. Haein Lee had HUGE UR on toeloop in her SP - which wasn't called. Again, double standarts :disagree:
P.P.S.: rewatched Maiia's "3Lo<" in FP too - actually there was only step out - UR was wrongly called as the jump is rotated enough. Wow, Lake Placid's TP joke judging wasn't actually that bad, huh :sarcasm:
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2015
Well, that is an "interesting" post. I love a good conspiracy theory/ angry/ irrational post ����
My take is a bit different though:
1. I really enjoyed the Georgian teams FD. It was interesting and passionate. The winning Russian pair had amazing twizzles and were amazing given the limited time they have been together. ( I live Liza K.)
2. The top two men were deserved winners. I found their skating uninspiring personally but it is great that Korean skaters are showing such improvement and that Russia might have a more consistent male skater. Samsonov is adorable and has a lot of potential. Andrew T. is definitely my favorite men's skater on the junior grand prix. His SS, extension, spins and even jumps ( when he lands them) are on an equal level as the top senior men. I hope he gets over his mental block in competition. He is amazing.
3. The top 4 junior ladies here were all amazing. They all have great SS and extension. They could all benefit from more performance. I was really impressed by Rino's speed and flow especially in the SP. I like her SP choreography. I found all the rest of the programs of the top four girls ( including Rino's long) average at best but all of them have such good basics so despite the so so choreo I really enjoyed watching them. In the end, Haein was the cleanest and so she won ( rightly). Her jumps looked effortless in the FS and I found the other girl's jumps were a bit more muscled ( probably just nerves). There may have been a few uncalled UR and edges but that is normal in this sport. ( We all wish the ISU would be more consistent--- if you make a rule you should enforce it all the time, every event, consistently---) But, I think all the girls benefited from the lenient panel a bit ( they all had borderline UR jumps or edge calls that went uncalled) and the end result was fair. It is amazing to have 4 such amazing talents at an event from three different countries. The future of ladies skating is bright!
My take is a bit different though:
1. I really enjoyed the Georgian teams FD. It was interesting and passionate. The winning Russian pair had amazing twizzles and were amazing given the limited time they have been together. ( I live Liza K.)
2. The top two men were deserved winners. I found their skating uninspiring personally but it is great that Korean skaters are showing such improvement and that Russia might have a more consistent male skater. Samsonov is adorable and has a lot of potential. Andrew T. is definitely my favorite men's skater on the junior grand prix. His SS, extension, spins and even jumps ( when he lands them) are on an equal level as the top senior men. I hope he gets over his mental block in competition. He is amazing.
3. The top 4 junior ladies here were all amazing. They all have great SS and extension. They could all benefit from more performance. I was really impressed by Rino's speed and flow especially in the SP. I like her SP choreography. I found all the rest of the programs of the top four girls ( including Rino's long) average at best but all of them have such good basics so despite the so so choreo I really enjoyed watching them. In the end, Haein was the cleanest and so she won ( rightly). Her jumps looked effortless in the FS and I found the other girl's jumps were a bit more muscled ( probably just nerves). There may have been a few uncalled UR and edges but that is normal in this sport. ( We all wish the ISU would be more consistent--- if you make a rule you should enforce it all the time, every event, consistently---) But, I think all the girls benefited from the lenient panel a bit ( they all had borderline UR jumps or edge calls that went uncalled) and the end result was fair. It is amazing to have 4 such amazing talents at an event from three different countries. The future of ladies skating is bright!
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2019
There is this website that keeps detailed statistics on any skating run, the scores, calls, and who were the people calling and judging.
Next week, new JGP, new panel of judges, all those statistics do add up over a time and certain trends can be acknowledged.
On some knowledgeable fan boards, these statistics are used to call on certain judges' objectivity.
https://figure-skating-charts.com and some others who put in all this effort.
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2015
The Skating Scores on Twitter always shows national bias in judging. Last week, the Russian judge and Japanese judge were highly biased towards their own skaters in the men’s event. I think any judge consistently showing extreme bias should be banned. But, the previous poster was talking about the tech panel not calling UR and edges. This is something that has long been an issue but it is not benefiting just one nation. It does hurt skaters like Tuk and Rika who have better technical jumps but I don’t think the lack of calls at this event changed the end result. All the top 4 girls are equally talented, but the cleanest one won. I think the result was fair.
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- Jan 31, 2019
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I absolutely LOVED Riga event!
For totally personal reasons absolutely nobody else could relate to, Mozalev’s music choice for his short program made me spend the whole weekend rooting for the guy. I even got up to watch live stream to keep my fingers and toes crossed.
lol, talk about the best of Russian sentimentality in that choice. Anyways (sweeps a sweet tear away) his skating was stellar irregardless of my personal feels about the age long gone. My heart broke for Arkhipova’s psyche out, so sad... that poor girl.
Also, dunno why, but I like Manko, despite remembering him from last year’s JW (I think?) only because I thought that Ballet of Flowers was an odd choice.
Kurakova was a joy, and I really liked Petrokina’s skating as well. And, to be trivial and stuff, but I was really fond of Usacheva’s both programs.
Vinokur is someone who reminded me that it was officially billed as junior competition, just fun to watch a kid that happy to be there.
Other than that, I was religiously adding stuff to my 2019/2020 playlist (while I still can, lol!)
My keepers were:
Short: Usacheva, Arkhipova, Petrokina, Oktar, Mozalev, Manko
Free: Izzo, Petrokina, Kurakova, Usacheva, Manko, Vinokur, Samsonov, Selevko, Mozalev
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2017
I wonder how one can say it with straight face perfectly knowing that top 4 girls were in range of 1-2 points between each of them
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2005
The Russian skaters here were highly flawed in the free. It is beyond ridiculous to say that one was robbed of gold because of an UR when that particular skater fell and landed on two feet. I think that Sihyeong Lee was robbed of gold and Rino Matsuike silver. So over this idea that Eteri skaters should receive such superior PCS to everyone else for their mechanical programs with rushed transitions. I thought Haein and Rino’s skating was absolutely beautiful and deserving in its own right.
Similarly in the men, I’m over these complete messes of skates winning gold over flawless skates just because the skater did a quad (kind of). Don’t try to tell me Mozalev deserved the highest PCS in that event.
Similarly in the men, I’m over these complete messes of skates winning gold over flawless skates just because the skater did a quad (kind of). Don’t try to tell me Mozalev deserved the highest PCS in that event.
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- Mar 3, 2018
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Men
- Mozalev I thought was overscored in PCS in the free, but on the whole this was a good first outing for him, and certainly he's going for the big content.
- I was very impressed by Lee, especially how he handled things in the free skate, since it's far from unusual for people who probably didn't expect to be in medal position after the short program to have a hard time in the free. Korea's excellent JGP continues.
- The height difference between Samsonov and everybody else he was on the ice with was a source of amusement for me. I was impressed by him overall, even if he was clearly disappointed with how this event went. He's got excellent flexibility, and his spins, etc. are much better than most junior men.
- Lev Vinokur was my discovery of the event, and really should have been fifth in the short program. Bychenko may be allowed to retire eventually after all.
- Phan and Torgashev continue to be really frustrating skaters to watch, though in Joseph's case he was hampered by injury over the summer.
Ladies
- The other successful Lee of the competition, clear standout in the field, I thought. I liked her last year, but her programs this year, especially the free, are better still.
- I felt for Khromykh; she should have won the short program, in my opinion, but then the free skate went badly and she was off the podium entirely (which was correct, in my view). I really love her double Axel entry.
- Usacheva, our silver medalist, I liked on the whole, even if I felt her PCS was generous in both programs.
- Matsuike had a very good debut; I bet on the wrong Japanese lady to be successful here, it turned out.
- Petrokina was a real standout, particularly as she skated relatively early in in the free skate and wasn't surpassed for a good while afterward. She and Levushkina are promising for the future of non-Russian skating in Europe.
- Kaiya Ruiter was a real delight for me, and even though this wasn't a perfect debut by any means, it was a promising one; in particular, she got a great score considering she only executed one of her four planned combinations properly.
- Arkhipova I felt really bad for; she was undermarked in PCS in the short program to begin with, and then the free skate trainwreck, which I'm sure had a lot to do with the delay in her being allowed to take the ice. And she was clearly upset afterward.
Ice dance
- It was hard to know what to expect from Khudaiberdieva/Filatov going into this, but they really delivered the goods; Shanaeva/Naryzhnyy and even Ushakova/Nekrasov had better watch out on the Russian domestic side. Elizaveta obviously very thrilled going by her great KnC reaction, and her Instagram post none-too-subtly jabbing her previous partner.
- Kazakova/Reviya were the expected winners of this event going in, so I'm sure they're disappointed with second, but they did win the free dance, and they deserved to; that was extremely memorable choreography.
- Tyutyunina/Shustitskiy are going to be a perennial spelling challenge if their careers go anywhere, but obviously this was a good start for them.
- D'Alessandro/Waddell, obviously another disappointing pewter finish for our dance teams, though in their case I'm pretty sure Bruce was dealing with injury for some of the summer; certainly they never did a full summer competition, which might have helped with the free dance. All that being the case, they did well here, and I love both programs; the rhythm dance we had already seen, but the Meat Loaf free dance was a ton of fun.
- Golubtsova/Belobrov got off to a terrible start in the rhythm dance, but had a much better free dance; hopefully they can have a better start next time.
- The Israeli team, Nosovitskaya/Nosovitskiy, had a much better outing here than at Lake Placid, but they couldn't avoid having a second double-fall.
- Jeon/Choi, the Korean team, had some really interesting elements, and hopefully things will continue to improve for them. Good to see more ice dance developing in Asia.
- Mozalev I thought was overscored in PCS in the free, but on the whole this was a good first outing for him, and certainly he's going for the big content.
- I was very impressed by Lee, especially how he handled things in the free skate, since it's far from unusual for people who probably didn't expect to be in medal position after the short program to have a hard time in the free. Korea's excellent JGP continues.
- The height difference between Samsonov and everybody else he was on the ice with was a source of amusement for me. I was impressed by him overall, even if he was clearly disappointed with how this event went. He's got excellent flexibility, and his spins, etc. are much better than most junior men.
- Lev Vinokur was my discovery of the event, and really should have been fifth in the short program. Bychenko may be allowed to retire eventually after all.
- Phan and Torgashev continue to be really frustrating skaters to watch, though in Joseph's case he was hampered by injury over the summer.
Ladies
- The other successful Lee of the competition, clear standout in the field, I thought. I liked her last year, but her programs this year, especially the free, are better still.
- I felt for Khromykh; she should have won the short program, in my opinion, but then the free skate went badly and she was off the podium entirely (which was correct, in my view). I really love her double Axel entry.
- Usacheva, our silver medalist, I liked on the whole, even if I felt her PCS was generous in both programs.
- Matsuike had a very good debut; I bet on the wrong Japanese lady to be successful here, it turned out.
- Petrokina was a real standout, particularly as she skated relatively early in in the free skate and wasn't surpassed for a good while afterward. She and Levushkina are promising for the future of non-Russian skating in Europe.
- Kaiya Ruiter was a real delight for me, and even though this wasn't a perfect debut by any means, it was a promising one; in particular, she got a great score considering she only executed one of her four planned combinations properly.
- Arkhipova I felt really bad for; she was undermarked in PCS in the short program to begin with, and then the free skate trainwreck, which I'm sure had a lot to do with the delay in her being allowed to take the ice. And she was clearly upset afterward.
Ice dance
- It was hard to know what to expect from Khudaiberdieva/Filatov going into this, but they really delivered the goods; Shanaeva/Naryzhnyy and even Ushakova/Nekrasov had better watch out on the Russian domestic side. Elizaveta obviously very thrilled going by her great KnC reaction, and her Instagram post none-too-subtly jabbing her previous partner.
- Kazakova/Reviya were the expected winners of this event going in, so I'm sure they're disappointed with second, but they did win the free dance, and they deserved to; that was extremely memorable choreography.
- Tyutyunina/Shustitskiy are going to be a perennial spelling challenge if their careers go anywhere, but obviously this was a good start for them.
- D'Alessandro/Waddell, obviously another disappointing pewter finish for our dance teams, though in their case I'm pretty sure Bruce was dealing with injury for some of the summer; certainly they never did a full summer competition, which might have helped with the free dance. All that being the case, they did well here, and I love both programs; the rhythm dance we had already seen, but the Meat Loaf free dance was a ton of fun.
- Golubtsova/Belobrov got off to a terrible start in the rhythm dance, but had a much better free dance; hopefully they can have a better start next time.
- The Israeli team, Nosovitskaya/Nosovitskiy, had a much better outing here than at Lake Placid, but they couldn't avoid having a second double-fall.
- Jeon/Choi, the Korean team, had some really interesting elements, and hopefully things will continue to improve for them. Good to see more ice dance developing in Asia.
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- Mar 3, 2018
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He was ruled ineligible to compete because he had competed too recently while representing Russia. It was a screwup by the Israeli fed to send him.Does anyone know why Lev Vinokur was marked as DSQ in the Riga ISU results? I can't find anything about what could have caused a disqualification.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2016
Thanks for that - I didn't see this event, but was checking the results and saw the DSQ, and couldn't find information for that anywhere. Glad to hear it's just an admin thing and not any awful behaviour.
