Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 76

Thread: What makes music cuts good or bad?

  1. #1
    Penalty Box
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    791
    Country: Russia

    6 Not allowed!

    What makes music cuts good or bad?

    In the Alena Kostornaya fan fest, I came across such a comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisa View Post
    Alena can skate to everything ... even FS with terrible cuts ...
    I very often saw such comments "about Gleichenhaus'es cuts". But I never (I speak honestly and openly) did not understand the essence of the claims.

    Here new Alena's FP. I don’t hear any “cuts” here, for me there are changes of three musical themes. (Further my interpretation, cuz I'm not a Twilight fan and I have only the most general idea). Their presence and quantity is justified. The first theme: Bella is a human, the sad melody conveys the loneliness of Bella who came to the new city (I watched only the first part and I remember only its beginning), emphasizes the noirness of the story. The second theme: the internal state after turning into a vampire - sadness for the lost human nature, bitterness from the realization of the irreversibility of what happened (Of course, I perceive it differently than English speakers, because I do not understand the words of the song - I just hear the singer’s sad, as if a little tired voice). Third theme: Bella is getting into the taste of her position, realizing and accepting her new nature as a powerful creature.

    Transitions between themes are made smoothly. And it's not just about acoustics. Look at the gesture of Alena - how she holds her hand to her neck showing that a vampire bite has occurred. She shows that there have been important changes, which, of course, must lead to changes in the musical theme. The viewer is prepared. I also add that the emotions of musical themes are replaced gradually. Which of course also makes the perception of transitions more natural.


    Let me show you what I call "bad cuts". This is the FP of Ilya Yablokov (junior). It is made on the basis of the musical "Notre Dame de Paris". I will give links to moments a few seconds before the cuts, what would you rate the degree of their horror. The first theme is the famous "Belle", part of Quasimodo, it ends with an increase in tonality (after which Claude Frollo's part should enter) emotional crescendo inevitably arises inside us... but suddenly it's primitive and clumsy "stitched" with the end of the song. Hgggrrrr.... Second theme is "Tu vas me détruire" ("You will destroy me"). And we see the same type of "cut" - moment of highest emotional stress "stitched" with repressed whisper "you will destroy me" from the very end (in original song that moment and that). Third theme "l'attaque de Notre-dame".
    What kind of emotional drawing these three themes should create, what the choreographer wants to convey to me is not very clear. This is what I call primitive, clumsy, cuts. Daniel never has such bad and primitiv work.

    I hope that those who are dissatisfied with the work of Daniel will explain during the discussion in this topic what their criteria are - why they consider his cuts to be bad.

  2. #2
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    36,334
    Country: United States of America

    4 Not allowed!
    I do not have any qualifications to discuss the work of Gleichenhaus. But I can remember way back in the day before they had any real technology for preparing music for skating. Choreographers had to do the best they could with big, clumsy reel-to-reel tape recorders and the like.

    The typical program in those days, as I remember it, was sort of like a musical composition in three movements, usually having little to do with each other. First there was a substantive first movement to give weight to the skaters bag of technical tricks. Then a slow movement for the skater to catch her breath while gliding around looking pretty. Then a spirited presto -- the dash to the finish (just the ticket for fast spins).

    If the music didn't come out to the right length they would just skip or repeat a few bars to make it fit. Once in a while choreographers would go out on a limb and select, say, something from Carmen that was not Habanera just to wake up the audience -- hey, what's that, I thought she was going to do Carmen!

    I was quite willing to suspend critical judgment. It all sounded fine to me. Nowadays, with the technology at our disposal, anyone can patch different songs together seamlessly. Gleichenhaus has his own has his own style and vision. Plus, he has the luxury of working with young performers of immense talent and teachability. It's all good.
    Last edited by Mathman; 09-10-2019 at 01:36 PM.

  3. #3
    Tripping on the Podium VenusHalley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    631
    Country: Czech Republic

    19 Not allowed!
    For me the worst cuts were last year's Alina's short. Several POTO songs crammed into 2:40 with breaking glass as transition between them? Ewww.

  4. #4
    Penalty Box
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    791
    Country: Russia

    4 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by VenusHalley View Post
    For me the worst cuts were last year's Alina's short. Several POTO songs crammed into 2:40 with breaking glass as transition between them? Ewww.
    We have a different tastes - for the first time, I liked Alina precisely in this program To be honest, I am not familiar with the Phantom of the Opera (I’ll make this shameful confession). Therefore, I judge completely divorced from this musical, purely by the acoustic-emotional overall impact on me. Everything is done harmoniously (at least for me).

    At first the annoying, disturbing, depressing sounds of violins and cello (I suppose?). And here located is the most crucial moment from the sports side - 3lz+3Lo. And the sound of broken glass frees you from this depression, right after that you start clear gentle female vocals, there is a feeling of release. And along with this is start a delightful StSq.

    And then moment with the music box, isn't that amazing? I don’t know the musical, maybe it means something but for me it's like a “camera” seems to focus on the background, focusing the figurine on the shelve (and Alina turns into this figurine from the box for a few seconds). And this technique (focusing on the background) to emphasize the importance of events taking place in the foreground (like, you know, a small island in the grand ocean of serious events around, which emphasizes their grandeur).

    The narrative returns to the forefront, solemn notes begin to appear, but still interspersed with disturbing ones - Alina approaches the flip. After a successful flip, only solemn notes remain "Bow to the Queen!" I dunno, for me - a man who did not watch this musical - Daniel masterfully completed his work playing with my soul as a pianist - everything is absolutely in place.

    to VenusHalley If it’s easy for you, explain a little more in detail - what exactly did you not like about Daniel's cuts in this programm? What is disharmonious for you? Maybe you looked and love the musical and judge from these positions?

  5. #5
    Tripping on the Podium VenusHalley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    631
    Country: Czech Republic

    9 Not allowed!
    For me too many music cuts feel bit forced and it feels calculated, even to a point that it feels not that moves were created for the music, but they searched for music to fit into a choreo that existed previously. (I kinda fear Rika's 8 songs long program for this reason). There is not enough time to create mood, to enjoy the music, it feels like song clips, like those Amazon previews.

    It sure can be done tastefully and succesfully, blending more songs together, but it should feel like a remix, rather than collage.

  6. #6
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    280
    Country: United States of America

    9 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by VenusHalley View Post
    For me the worst cuts were last year's Alina's short. Several POTO songs crammed into 2:40 with breaking glass as transition between them? Ewww.
    The first time I watched her program last year the music cuts made me so angry that I ended up yelling about it and scared the cat.

  7. #7
    Penalty Box
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    791
    Country: Russia

    3 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by VenusHalley View Post
    For me too many music cuts feel bit forced and it feels calculated, even to a point that it feels not that moves were created for the music, but they searched for music to fit into a choreo that existed previously. (I kinda fear Rika's 8 songs long program for this reason). There is not enough time to create mood, to enjoy the music, it feels like song clips, like those Amazon previews.

    It sure can be done tastefully and succesfully, blending more songs together, but it should feel like a remix, rather than collage.
    I have a few questions. First, did I understand correctly that you do not consider Daniil’s work to be of poor quality, bad, just that you are not a fan of this approach? Second, I understand correctly, what do you like when the program has one (may be one-two) musical theme? Third, how do you feel about last season’s Brady Tennel FP? It is built according to the typical pattern of Eteri-Daniel - three musical themes that make up the story, such as a small musical. It's "bad cuts" or not?

  8. #8
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    7,980

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by VenusHalley View Post
    For me the worst cuts were last year's Alina's short. Several POTO songs crammed into 2:40 with breaking glass as transition between them? Ewww.
    There have been worse cuts in the past, like the "best of" Plushenko LP and Liz Manley's 1988 Olympic LP, which was basically cuts of completely unrelated songs she skated to over the years. Honestly, there aren't many cohesive musical choices I've seen skaters use. One I can think of that I really liked was Irina's Tosca LP from 2001-02.

  9. #9
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    830

    2 Not allowed!
    The problem with Alena program is that not everyone will know that she's portraying twilight so it looks like she's skating to a bunch of random unconnected music. There is no transitions between the 3 highly contrasted music

  10. #10
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    4,142
    Country: Saint Pierre and Miquelon

    5 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by VenusHalley View Post
    For me the worst cuts were last year's Alina's short. Several POTO songs crammed into 2:40 with breaking glass as transition between them? Ewww.
    Yet British Eurosport commentators claimed it was the best use of POTO songs in a program they've ever watched. And i'm pretty sure they are more qualifed to comment on it than majority on this forum But after all, that's just a matter of subjective preferences, nothing more.

  11. #11
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    162
    Country: United States of America

    6 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Yet British Eurosport commentators claimed it was the best use of POTO songs in a program they've ever watched. And i'm pretty sure they are more qualifed to comment on it than majority on this forum But after all, that's just a matter of subjective preferences, nothing more.
    Why does that matter?

  12. #12
    Penalty Box
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    791
    Country: Russia

    2 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by believed View Post
    Why does that matter?
    why not? words of professionals, no?

  13. #13
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    230
    Country: Mexico

    11 Not allowed!
    The answer it's pretty simple; art it's subjective, and one's perspectives are always somewhat based on a combination of culture and upbringing (among other things). So not everyone will have the same opinion for the music cuts. I showed Alina's Carmen without context (I didn't tell her anything about Alina other than she represents Russia) to a friend of mine who is an avid opera (but who knows nothing about FS), ballet and musical fan, she was horrified with the music cuts, maybe some other fan would be thrilled.

  14. #14
    Penalty Box
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    791
    Country: Russia

    4 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by icybear View Post
    The problem with Alena program is that not everyone will know that she's portraying twilight so it looks like she's skating to a bunch of random unconnected music. There is no transitions between the 3 highly contrasted music
    I believe there are no people left on the planet who, at least in general terms, do not know about twilight, vampire mania and all this nonsense. Therefore, it will be enough to read “Twilight” and everyone will understand the general meaning of what is happening (well, except for the 95-year-old grandmother Gretta blindly squinting at her black and white TV, but I think this is insignificant).

    And of course the costume.

  15. #15
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    4,142
    Country: Saint Pierre and Miquelon

    4 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by believed View Post
    Why does that matter?
    What? Expirienced and more objective opinion of Eurosport commentators or the fact that people have preferences and preconceptions?

  16. #16
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    230
    Country: Mexico

    14 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vladimir View Post
    Yet British Eurosport commentators claimed it was the best use of POTO songs in a program they've ever watched. And i'm pretty sure they are more qualifed to comment on it than majority on this forum But after all, that's just a matter of subjective preferences, nothing more.
    They are more qualified (that does not mean they are always right) to comment on the technical elements, and the execution of all elements as a whole (choreography), as well as Alina's interpretation of the program. They are not, however, more qualified than any of us on the use of POTO's songs, unless they are professional musicians themselves.

  17. #17
    Tripping on the Podium eppen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    709

    5 Not allowed!
    Thanks Orlov for making the Twilight choreo seem motivated, I completely missed the 0,5 s hand brush on her throat which is very much a key element. Now, the music cut is ok IMO: they do create a mood, even changes in it, there were only 3 different songs which made each on long enough. The build towards the end kind of worked. I think her music cut last year was simply horrible with just about every major Romeo and Juliet theme put together into 4 min...

    The choreo is more of a problem for me. I vaguely knew that the whole thing is about vampires, but had no idea what the character is all about (and btw I am not 94 years old, just not at all interested in vampires, zombies or other stuff like that). If you are telling a story or portraying a character that is not universally very well-known, then the movement really has to be more eloquent. I could not read the story from the movement because the key element went by in a whizz and was not accentuated sufficiently. Her movement should have changed much more with the vampire setting in and becoming dominant. She skated beautifully as Alena always does, but it was not what would have been needed really. Hope they get it done better and more expressive over the season!

    Overall, the Team Tutberidze girls had better and more original music selections compared to last season, the cuts were ok in general (at least I cannot remember laughing or being horrified over them), it was just that the choreos were not that interesting. They certainly fulfilled all the technical requirements, but otherwise, I at least got very little joy or emotions from them.

    These days music cuts tend to be technically better than before the time of digital editing, sampling and who knows what technical advances. However, that does not mean that the content would be chosen any better than before. Sure, we have much less of the kind of selections of seemingly random songs put together that used to be there, but you can still mess things up royally. Think of all the Queen songs, particularly Bohemian Rhapsody, that just get snipped into meaningless bit and pieces... In this sense, I say bravo to who ever did Voronov's SP with one of my fave Queen songs, Somebody to Love - it was mostly intact until the end which was also fairly satisfyingly solved. I did not want to cry because they had mistreated that song, I cried because Uncle Sergei skated so well

    What comes to selecting and arranging the music - in figure skating, I think, it is always done with the eye firstly on the technical layout. The music supports the movement and not the other way around (think of the famous stories of how Hanyu needed changes to the Hope and Legacy music to get the timings for his jumps to match the music - the music was changed, not Hanyu's entries/placement of the jump in the program). The choreographies are not freely formed works of art, but rather designed to show off the technical skills of the skater with just enough artistry to make it not look just doing one tough trick after another.

    However, there are times when the choreographer's and the skater's skills weave together something that rises above the usual run of the mill competition program and the whole becomes greater than just jumps and spins put together with enough steps and turns in between. In that Daniil is perhaps not yet in the very master series. I do think he is getting better in the game, but not quite yet there...

    E

  18. #18
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    9,635
    Country: United States of America

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ducky View Post
    The first time I watched her program last year the music cuts made me so angry that I ended up yelling about it and scared the cat.
    ...….Awesome.

  19. #19
    On the Ice Elaine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    264

    3 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlov View Post
    We have a different tastes - for the first time, I liked Alina precisely in this program To be honest, I am not familiar with the Phantom of the Opera (I’ll make this shameful confession). Therefore, I judge completely divorced from this musical, purely by the acoustic-emotional overall impact on me. Everything is done harmoniously (at least for me).

    At first the annoying, disturbing, depressing sounds of violins and cello (I suppose?). And here located is the most crucial moment from the sports side - 3lz+3Lo. And the sound of broken glass frees you from this depression, right after that you start clear gentle female vocals, there is a feeling of release. And along with this is start a delightful StSq.

    And then moment with the music box, isn't that amazing? I don’t know the musical, maybe it means something but for me it's like a “camera” seems to focus on the background, focusing the figurine on the shelve (and Alina turns into this figurine from the box for a few seconds). And this technique (focusing on the background) to emphasize the importance of events taking place in the foreground (like, you know, a small island in the grand ocean of serious events around, which emphasizes their grandeur).

    The narrative returns to the forefront, solemn notes begin to appear, but still interspersed with disturbing ones - Alina approaches the flip. After a successful flip, only solemn notes remain "Bow to the Queen!" I dunno, for me - a man who did not watch this musical - Daniel masterfully completed his work playing with my soul as a pianist - everything is absolutely in place.

    to VenusHalley If it’s easy for you, explain a little more in detail - what exactly did you not like about Daniel's cuts in this programm? What is disharmonious for you? Maybe you looked and love the musical and judge from these positions?
    I'm not familar with the musical itself either and I felt the music cut was very very weird. Not just the glass breaking sound, but overall. It's like one very long and complicate story poorly crammed into a very short something-not-even-a-story, which is actually exactly what happened. It often happens in figure skating since there is only so much time for a FS program but skaters sometimes choose a whole musical or movie, not a specific music from it. But Alina's SP last season was one of the worst cases. Because it was crammed in such a random and poor way, it almost felt like all those 4-5 musics came from all different musicals or whatever the original sources are. The numbers used in the program are the most iconic numbers from POTO (recognizable even to someone like me who is not familar with the musical) but still they all felt so seperate and alien to each other. There was no well-constructed storytelling or comprehensive theme. Exaggerated and random ups and downs in terms of emotion. Out-of-the-blue changes of tone. In only 2 mins 50 secs.

    The "music box" moment was very beautiful and well matched with Alina's layback spin, but it was the very example of the randomness of this program. It could have been put into any point of this program, or maybe nowhere tbh.

    Each seperate part looks good if you watch it individually but not as one piece. They were not connected well, too many musics were used, or maybe the order of musics was wrong. That's why some people think the music cut was bad, I think. It was poorly constructed.

    And the glass breaking sound or the thunder sound was, in my opinion, an attempt to make the awkward changes of music somehow dramatic or at least less awkward, but it didn't work. I think it worked in the opposite way.

    I am just happy that Alina's new SP is much much better. I already love the program so much.

  20. #20
    Bona Fide Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    4,142
    Country: Saint Pierre and Miquelon

    5 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulrica View Post
    They are more qualified (that does not mean they are always right) to comment on the technical elements, and the execution of all elements as a whole (choreography), as well as Alina's interpretation of the program. They are not, however, more qualified than any of us on the use of POTO's songs, unless they are professional musicians themselves.
    Why should profesional musicians opinion matter when this is not a music competition? They are more qualified (than most of the people on this forum) because they watched (while commentating on) all of POTO programs in last 20 years at least, apart of being skaters themselfes and involved in skating many many years for now! And they were commentating on the idea behind the program specificaly, not just on Alina's skating, and you can see for yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_3ePjhYCyI - 'fabulous compilation of that music, great edit', 'well done guys who put that music together and the overal structure', 'that was masterfully done', and they also explained why they think that.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •