Problems with dominations of certain countries

Skater Boy · Oct 7, 2019

el henry said:
From my own point of view, I like to see many countries share the podium. I would have liked to have seen three different countries on the men's podium last year and three different countries on the women's podium. I loooove:luv17: seeing smaller countries with skaters entered in events. It makes me happy

It probably diminishes popularity in the US that there is not a senior ladies skater contending for the title, but only from an accessibility standpoint. Local skaters = easier coverage and more coverage.

That said, because of that, no one "on the street" in the US (that is, not on a figure skating forum) could identify the World ladies podium from last year absent the Olympics connection. No one cares that Russia has more ladies on the podium, because no one knows I will pay you a thousand dollars if you would find anyone, *anyone*, in the city of Bethlehem who can identify Alexandra Trusova. Or even recognizes the name.

Nathan Chen might, might, have some visibility (mens skating is always less popular) as the champion skater who goes to Yale, but it's still not enormous. And no one is running around going, yippee yay two USA men on the world's podium, we rock. Figure skating doesn't do that here

But like I said, I love seeing the wealth spread around, I love seeing unexpected results, I love seeing an Ivan Shmuratko or an Alessia Tornaghi on the podium. Diversity can only make the sport stronger in the long run:thumbsup:

I agree. Diversity is wonderful at the same time you want the best. It is wonderful on the junior scene to see c ountries who basically have little ice be represented ie India. We see ebbs and flows. Long time Russia n ladies were no where to be seen. Canada is in a huge lull where they have no one in the top 5 I believe. TO some nations certain sports are real important and if they have soeone who can sell it ie Yuna Kim or Mao Asada and before her Ito and SAto you will see others from that nation follow suit. Yes, this is a sport where the men aren't as powerful in the marketing dept. DOn't get me wrong there are companies interested in the likes of Nathan Chen but he still can't compete with the top track stars or hockey, football, basketball, golf or tennis athletes. But at the same time we want the best to win and sometimes that means some dominance by certain countries. It makes sense that now about 9 years after Vancouver that Yuna Kim influenced girls are starting to come out from Korea to challenge. Whereas USA has always had a constant strong of w orld and olympic threats.

samkrut@mail.ru · Oct 7, 2019

To the extent that the term "fair" can be applied to life in general and sports in particular I believe that 3 only quota is unfair to Russian ladies this season. On the other hand, I am not Don Quixote to fight with windmills. Moreover, Russian Nationals become The event of the season not only because of the strongest line-up of participants but because of the associated drama. That's the key reason for me to go there to see it in person.

I am not sure I have anything else on this topic.

Alegria · Oct 7, 2019

Tolstoj said:
Is it a problem commercially? Well in the case OP brought up about russian ladies you saw this season at JGP Chelyabinsk i don't remember the last time i saw a crowd that packed for a JGP event; or the test skates, people are interested to watch these skaters, they go to the competitions, in general we all want to see the top athletes competing

There were no top junior skaters in Chelyabinsk not from Russia. As a result, Russia got 11 medals from 12.
If we look at entries of Rostelecom Cup we can see, that Russian federation always choose the weakest candidates, so they will be no threat to Russian skaters.
So is this domination real? But local audience came to see local skaters win. Is it fair for skaters from other countries? I don't think so.

Alex65 · Oct 7, 2019

Alegria said:
There were no top junior skaters in Chelyabinsk not from Russia. As a result, Russia got 11 medals from 12.
If we look at entries of Rostelecom Cup we can see, that Russian federation always choose the weakest candidates, so they will be no threat to Russian skaters.
So is this domination real? But local audience came to see local skaters win. Is it fair for skaters from other countries? I don't think so.

Is Hanyu the weakest skater?
If the local public in any other country does not show any interest in skaters at all, this is the standard of justice, if you follow your logic. Just look at any competition in Chelyabinsk - couples - dances - singles, each of them received the attention of the audience, who welcomed each performance of each participant. Naturally there was more support for the Russian participants, this is not surprising and prejudicial, because for all the others the audience was friendly and actively supported everyone. Some young athletes noted in their interviews that it was a unique and memorable experience when they had the opportunity to speak to such a huge and friendly audience. (Unfortunately, for many this may never happen again, not all of them will go to the world championships and OG). The fact that someone does not want to notice this - well, well, this is his right and his views.

Rissa · Oct 7, 2019

ladyjane said:
Why is it a problem if The Netherlands sweeps a podium in Speed Skating but it isn't when a Russian or American team does the same thing?

You don't see the answer in the question itself?

Netherlands is not America or Russia. If Russia or America were dominating in Speed Skating, it wouldn't be a problem either. They're Russia and America, they can dominate whatever they want.

jenaj · Oct 7, 2019

ladyjane said:
This may just be a thing of mine, but I do worry about it. At the Olympic's in 2014 the Dutch won far too may medals at speed skating, mostly at long track but also some at short track. Personally, I didn't much care as my sport to watch is Figure Skating, and not some dumb speedy thing. In fact, I was pleased the Dutch won less Olympic medals in South Korea than four years earlier in Sochi because it just feels wrong when one country has sweeps, gets a majority of the golds and so on. A bit of domination is fine. If it happens once, but when it happens all the time worries come to the fore. I understood perfectly when ISU officials made remarks and commented on the Dutch dominance in some disciplines. And consequently changed some of the formats.

In Figure skating the Dutch aren't present very much, but the competitions are dominated by Russians, Americans, Canadian and Chinese (pairs especially). I love it, especially the pairs (where Germans won the Olympics, which was a wonderful outcome in this case) and definitely love all the good skaters. Especially in pairs. However, not one ISU offical makes remarks, comments and wants to change things despite the ladies division (and to a certain extent the pairs too) being totally dominated by one country for quite some time. Don't get me wrong: I think the Russian skaters, whatever the discipline, are very, very good and deserve medals. But sweeps (very prominent in juniors especially) aren't considered a problem according to the officials. I haven't heard complaints about the Junior Pairs Grand Prix Final being dominated by Russian Pairs. And of course the skaters in question aren't sport wise doing anything wrong, because they're definitely the best. No arguments there.

I'm not one of the people convinced that the judging is biased or whatever. But why is it a problem to be dominating in speed skating (and I agree that it's not good to have one country leading the way all the time), but it isn't presumably in Figure Skating? I tend to be totally in agreement with posters here who would like to see the best skaters, and not so much the best skaters per country, worldwide and I know that at least in 2 disciplines the Russians are the best (definitely), but why is that okay in Figure Skating but not in any other discipline? Why is it a problem if The Netherlands sweeps a podium in Speed Skating but it isn't when a Russian or American team does the same thing? Not to devalue any skater of skating couple, but I don't get it. There's even been quite a few speed skating presidents of the ISU (and the current one is both speed skating heritage and Dutch) with all its handicaps.

Sorry guys, I don't mean to whine (though it may look like it) but I just don't understand that dominance of one country is a problem in speed skating but not in another discipline. I could of course put forward the same arguments for South Korea but then I would refer to Short track speed skating......

It's not a problem in figure skating. May the best skater win.

Alegria · Oct 7, 2019

Alex65 said:
Is Hanyu the weakest skater?

I don't mean top-12 from the last WC. But the rest of the places are always given to weakest. It's not a secret.

If the local public in any other country does not show any interest in skaters at all, this is the standard of justice, if you follow your logic. Just look at any competition in Chelyabinsk - couples - dances - singles, each of them received the attention of the audience, who welcomed each performance of each participant. Naturally there was more support for the Russian participants, this is not surprising and prejudicial, because for all the others the audience was friendly and actively supported everyone. Some young athletes noted in their interviews that it was a unique and memorable experience when they had the opportunity to speak to such a huge and friendly audience. (Unfortunately, for many this may never happen again, not all of them will go to the world championships and OG). The fact that someone does not want to notice this - well, well, this is his right and his views.

I mean, that all top countries decided not to send their top skaters to Russia, because they were not sure, that the judges will be fair. Only in Chelyabinsk we could see future finalists only from Russia. Of course it's great to see the rink full of audience, but if in Zagreb there was a chance, that Croatian skaters will get 11 medals, I'm sure we'll see the same support.
In OG in Moscow USSR dominated, while in Los Angeles 4 years later dominated USA. But was it real domination?

DSQ · Oct 7, 2019

TallyT said:
Err... we wish. That's not how it works, try checking a sport where your country is comparitively weak (swimming, perhaps? basketball? I don't actually know) and how many of your people would rather watch the foreign champions there.

But then again, as el henry said, look at the lack of interest in the US despite Nathan Chen or even in Nathan Chen. He and Zhou have actually done little to raise the sport's profile or popularity. So podiums aren't everything... it's not a simple matter.

Very true. An example in the UK the current reigning F1 and F2 champion are both British and both are competing in F1 this season. Three drivers out of the twenty are representing the UK and the reigning champion, Lewis Hamilton from the UK, is all set to win again this year.

The viewership has dropped not insignificantly this year for F1 in the UK.

There are mitigating circumstances but it is an example of why you can’t just rely on the people from the country with the most competitive athletes to support your sport. Some times the winners aren’t interested either. I’m actually not against a winner takes all approach to sport but in order to keep the sport healthy there needs to be some concession to diversity.

Mawwerg · Oct 7, 2019

I used to watch rugby a lot although neither of my national teams was competitive there.

Alex65 · Oct 7, 2019

Alegria said:
I don't mean top-12 from the last WC. But the rest of the places are always given to weakest. It's not a secret.

I mean, that all top countries decided not to send their top skaters to Russia, because they were not sure, that the judges will be fair. Only in Chelyabinsk we could see future finalists only from Russia. Of course it's great to see the rink full of audience, but if in Zagreb there was a chance, that Croatian skaters will get 11 medals, I'm sure we'll see the same support.
In OG in Moscow USSR dominated, while in Los Angeles 4 years later dominated USA. But was it real domination?

Are you sure this is so? Can you cite the sources of your confidence?
This is not clear logic to me. It's simple: in Croatia, the FS is not popular, there are no strong athletes, because no one wants to do this, since it is not popular. No one is even trying to draw public attention to these youth tournaments, although the ISU is stubbornly conducting them in such countries. By no means trying to offend the beautiful inhabitants of Croatia, I admire their football players.
Where politics intervenes, there is no place for sport, unfortunately.

4everchan · Oct 7, 2019

Mawwerg said:
I used to watch rugby a lot although neither of my national teams was competitive there.

though you may sound like it doesn't matter if your country is good or not good at a sport like rugby... i can use this argument in the total opposite... with the same exact sport..

a few years ago, rugby7 was added to the olympic roster of events... Canada, not a traditional force at all in rugby, funded both the ladies and men 7 teams... well guess what, Canada's ladies won quite a lot of world cups and i think they have bronze at the olympics...

what happened to me in light of that... I had never watched rugby at all.. did not know the rules.. thought it was dumb.. but since Canada is doing better in the 7 events, especially ladies, CBC is showing it on tv... and i started to watch it.. and now I follow it... i even livestream it...

the point i am making from the beginning is to gain worldwide fans and make the sport stronger, the ISU needs quotas....and they are doing well that way.... if i were on top of ISU, only two spots per country would be available.. not 3... just like in swimming....however, every country with skaters with TES minimums would be able to qualify their two skaters.... i am fine with the current rules.. but i would prefer that a country is not hampered by a counterperformance from the previous year at worlds... for instance, Canadian men only have one spot at world championships... that sucks... with all the emerging local talent.... anyways...

one last point : why do you think that the sport has less interest in the USA since Michelle Kwan has retired and nobody else stepped up to the plate????? a lot of casual fans want to see their athletes do well.... it's fun... it's a fun family/friends activity to cheer watching sports when folks from your home country are doing well... people connect to that... i am not sure i would connect to a dozen of 16 years old quadsters from Eteri... i am fine to see one or two

not 12

Reddi · Oct 7, 2019

century2009 said:
Nathan has actually raise the sports profile.

He did. Some people just conveniently forget about the difference in size and environment of the pond while they try to measure the fish.

Alegria said:
But was it real domination?

You mean in Chelyabinsk? No, of course not. RusFed assigned the strongest set of domestic skaters to the home event to prop up ticket sales. You know, as everybody does if there's a possibility. This turned off all the strong foreign contenders, cause being threatened works both ways.

Why do you so boldly approximate this situation to a senior GP series is another question. You must have had a statistical analysis of a very impressive amount of data on the first warm-up group of skaters at CoR through the years.

el henry · Oct 7, 2019

Reddi said:
He did. Some people just conveniently forget about the difference in size and environment of the pond while they try to measure the fish.

....

Can you tell me who you are referring to when you say “some people”?

I did say that men’s skating was not more popular in the US of A ETA: due to Nathan, and I stand by that comment, but it is impossible to tell whether I should respond when not directly quoted or engaged. So if you are referring to my post, could you do me the courtesy of telling me that?

Thank you

century2009 · Oct 7, 2019

Nathan actually put the US men in the spotlight when for about 10 years, they were noncompetitive and nonexistent to be honest. The US men were struggling significantly.

Another example is the turnout for the figure staking show has improved significantly with Nathan. And viewership of figure skating. His young demographic helped the sports get some "cool" back when figure skating was seen as a "women" sport.

He raised the profile of the sportsand US figure skating saw that as mens was showing more attendance and profile.

NBC has made the mens the prime broadcasting spot for figure skating in the US compared to women because of Nathan.

readernick · Oct 7, 2019

I think it is wise to try to include as many countries as possible. The US dominates women's artistic gymnastics but only 2 gymnasts from each country are allowed in the finals of each event which means extremely high scoring US ladies are left out of the finals in favor of lower scoring gymnasts from other countries. However, this ensures participation from many countries. I think limiting the number of skaters from one country is also wise so that more countries can participate. It is the only way to help a sport grow in popularity.

TallyT · Oct 7, 2019

el henry said:
Can you tell me who you are referring to when you say “some people”?

I did say that men’s skating was not more popular in the US of A ETA: due to Nathan, and I stand by that comment, but it is impossible to tell whether I should respond when not directly quoted or engaged. So if you are referring to my post, could you do me the courtesy of telling me that?

Thank you

I think it is directed at me, and I also stand by what I said (which was little, not none at all). To be fair, I doubt that Yuzu or Plushy, with their multiple OMs, could do much for the US profile (and of course it's better compared to the US women!!! That's like saying it's better than the Australians!!) had they been born/skated there.

Amei · Oct 7, 2019

century2009 said:
Nathan actually put the US men in the spotlight when for about 10 years, they were noncompetitive and nonexistent to be honest. The US men were struggling significantly.

Another example is the turnout for the figure staking show has improved significantly with Nathan. And viewership of figure skating. His young demographic helped the sports get some "cool" back when figure skating was seen as a "women" sport.

He raised the profile of the sportsand US figure skating saw that as mens was showing more attendance and profile.

NBC has made the mens the prime broadcasting spot for figure skating in the US compared to women because of Nathan.

I'd be willing to bet money that NBC has men in the prime broadcasting spot for figure skating because the US women have to be at optimal level to compete for bronze (certainly not gold unless there is some major splatfests by the top ladies) and their target market is the casual US viewer who for the most part aren't going to hang around and watch a competition when their skater isn't in the running for medals.

el henry · Oct 7, 2019

TallyT said:
I think it is directed at me, and I also stand by what I said. To be fair, I doubt that Yuzu or Plushy, with their multiple OMs, could do much for the US profile (and of course it's better compared to the US women!!! That's like saying it's better than the Australians!!) had they been born/skated there.

That’s the problem I see with “some people” posts.

Either it is referring to particular persons, in which case it would a simple matter of courtesy to quote the person or persons, so they could respond, or not.

Or it is referring to no one, in which case it is inaccurate.

And to get to the subject matter, popularity has nothing to do with skill, or winning, or “best skater”. Adam Rippon and Johnny Weir are the most popular men’s figure skaters in the US. It has to do with popularity. :biggrin:

And spreading the wealth could perhaps make figure skating more popular around the globe. Which could only be a good thing:agree:

Problems with dominations of certain countries

Skater Boy

[email protected]

Medalist

Alegria

Alex65

Rissa

jenaj

Alegria

DSQ

Mawwerg

Alex65

4everchan

Reddi

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

century2009

readernick

TallyT

Amei

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

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