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Thread: 2019 Japan Open: Thoughts and Highlights

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    No, I don't agree with judges here. Not because I see some big artistry in Trusova's performance - but because of judges double standarts. In fact, if the same program with the same jumps was skated by a man - it would recieve much higher PCS (and I am not talking about factoring difference here). Moreover, it is quite common to have 2/3 of the free of multiquadsters men as a jumping drill - and even Nathan is not exception here. Yet if that is a woman - it's suddenly is a fault while for men it's not even viewed as something deserving lowering PCS - such skating is natural and expected of them. Judges admits the right of men to have both feminine and masculine programs and can acclaim both ways of expressing yourself - but they denies the right for women to have masculine programs to be assessed positively - so they just can't see it as a proper program at all unless it's a feminine skating.
    Either you should raise the PCS for multiquadsters women to the level comparable of top men - or lower the PCS of multiquadsters men for having jumping drills instead of programs. If you are not gonna do it - I will continue to consider complains about lack of Trusova's artistry or claims about her deservedly low PCS as hypocritical crap.
    While I agree with the sentiment that men and women should be judged equally, and so that any man that skates an empty program with just jumps should be penalised for it, Sasha really doesn't have emotions at all. There is also almost no connect with the music. At least Nathan Chen's choreography and step sequence are expressive outlets, for instance. (but I would agree that Boyang Jin's program last season certainly was bland) We should totally have separate PCS and TES judges, even though ISU has something against more transparent judging (hmm I wonder what that might be)

    Also, would you like the entire ladies' field to be subject to the same degree of technical scrutiny as Yuzuru at ACI this year? While I'm all for calling URs when they're there, I don't think a large number of women's lutz edges and URs would continue to be unnoticed (Satoko would get murdered, for one). There was a post on the forums a while ago about how they did not wish to see judging protocols filled with carrots and how that would ruin the sport. I'm ok with that. Are you?

  2. #82
    Eyes on Fire! Elucidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You're right to some extent, but there have been plenty of men who have lit it up technically but have still had their PCS kept at bay in the past - Nguyen, Reynolds, Gogolev, Zhou, and Jin. Not saying they all deserved hugely higher PCS, I'm just saying that sometimes they'll do a ton of quads but their PCS needle doesn't move much.
    It was not because they were bad in artistry. It's because of their sloppy jumps and elements - more often than not with negative GOEs. If they would skated more cleanly - their PCS would rise without doubt. Artistry would have nothing to do with it.

    I don't think Trusova suffers from not being feminine enough - there are tons of skaters who skate programs that aren't dainty/flowy/lyrical (e.g. Suzuki's Kill Bill, Fernandez's Black Betty, Higuchi's Skyfall) but still score high -- because they bring the level of performance and the choreography is still interesting and intricate.

    Essentially what I'm trying to say is, Trusova's lack of artistry isn't because of her programs being packed with jumps so much as not having particularly interesting choreo in between, and even the choreo she does have is performed mechanically, with stiff arms, etc.
    It's impossible to have interesting choreo with 4 quads until the jumps is done - unless you are Hanyu, maybe. And I am not praising Trusova's artistry here. I am criticizing double standarts when men receive higher PCS than women (again, I am not talking about PCS factoring here) just for higher TES and clean jumps with much worse programs while women can't allow such luxury. And everybody is ok with it. It wasn't that noticeable until they met in Japan Open in the same competition. And then that injustice became clear as day. Skaters of different sex in the same competition get drastically different treatment by judges despite what they showed on ice - nowhere it was as evident as there. Moreover, that treatment difference applied to GOEs as well. In other words - women needed to be much more perfect to impress the judges.

    Quote Originally Posted by lzxnl View Post
    Also, would you like the entire ladies' field to be subject to the same degree of technical scrutiny as Yuzuru at ACI this year? While I'm all for calling URs when they're there, I don't think a large number of women's lutz edges and URs would continue to be unnoticed (Satoko would get murdered, for one). There was a post on the forums a while ago about how they did not wish to see judging protocols filled with carrots and how that would ruin the sport. I'm ok with that. Are you?
    I am not. ACI is a bad example though as calls there were inconsistent. I liked Shanghai Trophy TC work much more, for example. I prefer strict judging and calling - but it should be equal to everyone. Yes, Satoko would be murdered - but so many others as well. And it wouldn't be that awful - they lowered UR penalties for a reason. In the end it would be much more fair for skaters with clean and proper jumps as they almost never get deserved appraisal. That, and it would make competitions scores much more lower and closer to each other (like it was in Shanghai Trophy) - thus making competitions more unpredictable and exciting, allowing "dark horses" to win more often and making skaters really care about rotating each and every jump, since they would know they are close and even fractions of point can matter.
    However now we have a situation when favorites and top skaters are having too big safety cushion knowing most of their jumps wouldn't be even reviewed while low-tier skaters suffering from excessive scritiny. I don't think it should be like this.

  3. #83
    Tripping on the Podium discode's Avatar
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    Sasha's PCS is comparable to what Nathan or Boyang got in their first senior year (and what Boyang still gets today half the time). And her skating isn't any better than what they were doing either. It's ridiculous to expect her to get more and there is no sexist conspiracy theory. And she'll 100% get a huge PCS boost as she continues to skate and win even if she doesn't improve. I'll bet by the end of the season she's at least in the top 4 in PCS.

  4. #84
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    Sasha CAN perform (see her big spender short program where she had a very charming performance, whether or not that song is appropriate for a 13 year is old is besides the point). She just focuses on the tech now imo and doesn’t have enough energy to spend on performance quality. And honestly at this point, she’s still going to win if she lands those jumps whether or not she has the PCS.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by discode View Post
    Sasha's PCS is comparable to what Nathan or Boyang got in their first senior year (and what Boyang still gets today half the time). And her skating isn't any better than what they were doing either. It's ridiculous to expect her to get more and there is no sexist conspiracy theory. And she'll 100% get a huge PCS boost as she continues to skate and win even if she doesn't improve. I'll bet by the end of the season she's at least in the top 4 in PCS.
    Exactly. Facts:
    Nathan’s PCS were in the 70s in both Finlandia Trophy and Trophee de France back in 2016 with 5 quads and 3A. To improve his PCS, he went to Canton to train with Marina before the season started and didn’t go back to Raf until NHK. It is not that difficult to google his scores when he was in his first year before bashing his scoring at Japan Open.

    As to JO, Nathan got 3.14 and 3.12 for 4F and 4T, only 1.39 got the 4S which didn’t have good landing as the other two while Sasha got 2.96 and 1.52 hour her 4lz and 4S, the goe of the 4T are not that good. I don’t see much scoring injustice in terms of the GOE of the quads between the two. And clearly not everyone is ok with it, see how much bashing Nathan has got in this thread alone for his scoring

    It is understandable not everyone likes his new free program. But you don’t like the program or performances doesn’t mean it is not a good performance for that competition. The audiences love it, especially the choreo sequence, and as a result he performed the hip pop part for the encore. Last year, for the encore, he performed the much loved Nemesis from the previous season.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    It was not because they were bad in artistry. It's because of their sloppy jumps and elements - more often than not with negative GOEs. If they would skated more cleanly - their PCS would rise without doubt. Artistry would have nothing to do with it.


    It's impossible to have interesting choreo with 4 quads until the jumps is done - unless you are Hanyu, maybe. And I am not praising Trusova's artistry here. I am criticizing double standarts when men receive higher PCS than women (again, I am not talking about PCS factoring here) just for higher TES and clean jumps with much worse programs while women can't allow such luxury. And everybody is ok with it. It wasn't that noticeable until they met in Japan Open in the same competition. And then that injustice became clear as day. Skaters of different sex in the same competition get drastically different treatment by judges despite what they showed on ice - nowhere it was as evident as there. Moreover, that treatment difference applied to GOEs as well. In other words - women needed to be much more perfect to impress the judges.



    I am not. ACI is a bad example though as calls there were inconsistent. I liked Shanghai Trophy TC work much more, for example. I prefer strict judging and calling - but it should be equal to everyone. Yes, Satoko would be murdered - but so many others as well. And it wouldn't be that awful - they lowered UR penalties for a reason. In the end it would be much more fair for skaters with clean and proper jumps as they almost never get deserved appraisal. That, and it would make competitions scores much more lower and closer to each other (like it was in Shanghai Trophy) - thus making competitions more unpredictable and exciting, allowing "dark horses" to win more often and making skaters really care about rotating each and every jump, since they would know they are close and even fractions of point can matter.
    However now we have a situation when favorites and top skaters are having too big safety cushion knowing most of their jumps wouldn't be even reviewed while low-tier skaters suffering from excessive scritiny. I don't think it should be like this.
    OK, so we can agree that judging should be more consistent. I'd love to see that. Show us all the carrots (that are there).

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1111bm View Post
    Shoma is not from the US, so why would the judges protect him?
    And on top of that, he’s also one of Nathan’s big rivals after Yuzu. Why wouldn’t the ISU + Usfed penalise Shoma to push Nathan to the front even more? Or at least give their other project, Vincent, the chance to beat Shoma again and further improve his reputation?
    They didn’t even need to invent phantom UR calls this time, Shoma himself gave them such a great opportunity.
    I didn’t realise the ISU was out the support American skaters..? That explains why Bradie won the women’s even here by such a huge margin.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSQ View Post
    I didn’t realise the ISU was out the support American skaters..? That explains why Bradie won the women’s even here by such a huge margin.
    Haven't you heard yet?? You don't spend enough time on these forums and Twitter then!
    But that's ok, I had to get educated by fans of non-US skaters too...

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1111bm View Post
    Haven't you heard yet?? You don't spend enough time on these forums and Twitter then!
    But that's ok, I had to get educated by fans of non-US skaters too...
    xD

    On topic though Vincent look really good. Shame about the UR but his program seemed more complete than his free last season.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidus View Post
    It was not because they were bad in artistry. It's because of their sloppy jumps and elements - more often than not with negative GOEs. If they would skated more cleanly - their PCS would rise without doubt. Artistry would have nothing to do with it.
    A good barometer for a skater's artistic ability is their footwork sequence, IMO, and Trusova's is pretty sloppy and mechanically executed. The word "flail" has been used by many, and I think that's pretty accurate. I cut her some slack since she's a junior and that will come in time hopefully, but I'm also gonna call a spade a spade and not pretend that she's got a level of sophistication for which her PCS deserve to climb higher to complement her already monstrous (albeit earned/deserved) technical advantage.

    And there's something to be said about reeling off an element and performing an element - which is a struggle I've had with the aforementioned skaters (Reynolds, Nguyen, Jin) along with Trusova. There's something a bit clinical about how she executes her programs... and while I love her for her technical prowess, I do hope that she strives to develop her artistry even though she doesn't need to in order to win.

  11. #91
    On the Ice medoroa's Avatar
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    *completely ignores the artistry and PCS debate and waltzes in to say how amazing Bradie Tennell is, such sweeping big skating and lovely soft body control to the beautiful music, she has come so far!*

    Now if only she could rotate her jumps. Hope she'll get better with that as the season progresses!

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