Ladies Free if COP
- Thread starter elingrace4eva
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- Aug 5, 2003
mzheng said:
You have some argument from me here. Though I do think that Michelle would have higher PCS scores than Sasha, I think the fact of different component categories would ultimately help Sasha. It's easy to give Michelle a 6.0 and Sasha a 5.8, it's much harder to justify it with the PCS because of the numerical values, and because of the different categories.
Not saying Michelle wouldn't have come out ahead (I think she would have), but, at the same time, categories like "Transtitions" would likely have gone to Sasha.
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- Aug 5, 2003
YES, Michelle did a triple lutz, double toe. I didn't see it when I first watched (I don't know WHY), and I recorded it wrong. Sorry.
Alright, here is my TECHNICAL analysis of Michelle and Sasha's programs. (I'm only doing their programs). I'm only going to put down the base values (with the suggested deductions for falls and touch down) and mandatory deductions. GOE is too subjective, as is PCS. From my analysis, Sasha would have beat Michelle in technical elements.
As for the levels of the spins and footwork, I'm going by the guidlines, which can be found on the ISU website (can be found Here ).
I'm not pretending to be an expert on the system, I'm just trying to show you what I can tell from what I saw.
Sasha
Triple Lutz, Double toe (7.3)
Triple Flip, Double toe (6.8)
Triple Loop (touch down) (5) (-1)
Combination Spin- no change of foot (Flying camel, forward inside edge, bielmann, layback) (LEVEL TWO) (2.5)
Triple Lutz (fall) (6.0) (-3)
--- (Second ½, all jumps multiplied by 1.1 factor)
Triple Toe (4.4)
Triple Salchow (4.95)
Double Axel (3.63)
Layback Spin (LEVEL ONE) (1.2)
Spiral Sequence (COE spiral, one foot spiral, forward charlotte) (LEVEL TWO) (3.1)
Circular footwork (LEVEL TWO) (3.1)
Flying Spin – (Flying camel into sit/Death drop, increase speed) (LEVEL TWO) (2.3)
Combination Spin – change of foot (Camel, sit, layback, back sit, sasha spin) (LEVEL TWO) (3.0)
Additional 1.0 point deduction for fall.
Total: 48.28 BASE VALUE
Michelle
Triple Toe, Double Toe (5.3)
Triple Lutz, Double Toe (7.3)
Triple Flip (5.5)
Double Axel (3.3)
Layback Spin (LEVEL ONE) (1.2)
--- (Second ½, all jumps multiplied by 1.1 factor)
Triple Salchow (4.95)
Combination Spin- no change of foot (Flying camel, back cross, change positition) (LEVEL TWO) (2.5)
Spiral Sequence (COE spiral, one foot spiral, Y hold) (LEVEL ONE) (2.0)
Combination Spin – change foot (Camel, sit, back sit) (LEVEL ONE) (2.5)
Double Lutz (2.09)
Triple Toe (4.4)
Flying Spin (Flying camel into sit/Death drop) (LEVEL ONE) (2.0)
Straight Line footwork (LEVEL TWO) (3.1)
Total: 46.14
Now, if I got anything wrong, or if you see any problems with my analysis, please tell me. A lot of the levels may be up to your personal subjectivity, I just found them this way based on the guidelines. Of course, the actual final number would be completely subjected to whatever the judges decided regarding GOE and all that, but this is what I found from the base value. Sasha's spins and spirals were a higher level, and Michelle's lack of a triple loop, doubling her lutz, and doing a simpler combination (triple toe double toe instead of triple flip double toe) would have hurt her.
I imagine Michelle is aware of all this, and will likely fix it before worlds. However, I just wanted to point out that, if COP, Kwan may not have been such an obvious choice.
Alright, here is my TECHNICAL analysis of Michelle and Sasha's programs. (I'm only doing their programs). I'm only going to put down the base values (with the suggested deductions for falls and touch down) and mandatory deductions. GOE is too subjective, as is PCS. From my analysis, Sasha would have beat Michelle in technical elements.
As for the levels of the spins and footwork, I'm going by the guidlines, which can be found on the ISU website (can be found Here ).
I'm not pretending to be an expert on the system, I'm just trying to show you what I can tell from what I saw.
Sasha
Triple Lutz, Double toe (7.3)
Triple Flip, Double toe (6.8)
Triple Loop (touch down) (5) (-1)
Combination Spin- no change of foot (Flying camel, forward inside edge, bielmann, layback) (LEVEL TWO) (2.5)
Triple Lutz (fall) (6.0) (-3)
--- (Second ½, all jumps multiplied by 1.1 factor)
Triple Toe (4.4)
Triple Salchow (4.95)
Double Axel (3.63)
Layback Spin (LEVEL ONE) (1.2)
Spiral Sequence (COE spiral, one foot spiral, forward charlotte) (LEVEL TWO) (3.1)
Circular footwork (LEVEL TWO) (3.1)
Flying Spin – (Flying camel into sit/Death drop, increase speed) (LEVEL TWO) (2.3)
Combination Spin – change of foot (Camel, sit, layback, back sit, sasha spin) (LEVEL TWO) (3.0)
Additional 1.0 point deduction for fall.
Total: 48.28 BASE VALUE
Michelle
Triple Toe, Double Toe (5.3)
Triple Lutz, Double Toe (7.3)
Triple Flip (5.5)
Double Axel (3.3)
Layback Spin (LEVEL ONE) (1.2)
--- (Second ½, all jumps multiplied by 1.1 factor)
Triple Salchow (4.95)
Combination Spin- no change of foot (Flying camel, back cross, change positition) (LEVEL TWO) (2.5)
Spiral Sequence (COE spiral, one foot spiral, Y hold) (LEVEL ONE) (2.0)
Combination Spin – change foot (Camel, sit, back sit) (LEVEL ONE) (2.5)
Double Lutz (2.09)
Triple Toe (4.4)
Flying Spin (Flying camel into sit/Death drop) (LEVEL ONE) (2.0)
Straight Line footwork (LEVEL TWO) (3.1)
Total: 46.14
Now, if I got anything wrong, or if you see any problems with my analysis, please tell me. A lot of the levels may be up to your personal subjectivity, I just found them this way based on the guidelines. Of course, the actual final number would be completely subjected to whatever the judges decided regarding GOE and all that, but this is what I found from the base value. Sasha's spins and spirals were a higher level, and Michelle's lack of a triple loop, doubling her lutz, and doing a simpler combination (triple toe double toe instead of triple flip double toe) would have hurt her.
I imagine Michelle is aware of all this, and will likely fix it before worlds. However, I just wanted to point out that, if COP, Kwan may not have been such an obvious choice.
Good job. Not far from what Patrick got at FSU.
You sure Kwan's spiral is level 1? and Cohen is level 2? I knew Irina's spiral sometimes was judged as level 3!
I'm no expert either. Never read the whole ISU document. My comments were based combination on
1) Read diff analysis given by different armchair analysis they judged the event from the TV screen.
2) My own view from TV screen.
3) The on site fans comments. One of them, on site viewer, posted on ISU board, the other posted at SkateFan both were not Ms Kwan fan or rather slightly Cohen fan. And some of others. The comments from the one on ISU said the SPEED in Michelle's foot work is no comparision.
Anyway it's moot point to argu with no CoP friendly designed programs.
You sure Kwan's spiral is level 1? and Cohen is level 2? I knew Irina's spiral sometimes was judged as level 3!
I'm no expert either. Never read the whole ISU document. My comments were based combination on
1) Read diff analysis given by different armchair analysis they judged the event from the TV screen.
2) My own view from TV screen.
3) The on site fans comments. One of them, on site viewer, posted on ISU board, the other posted at SkateFan both were not Ms Kwan fan or rather slightly Cohen fan. And some of others. The comments from the one on ISU said the SPEED in Michelle's foot work is no comparision.
Anyway it's moot point to argu with no CoP friendly designed programs.
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- Aug 5, 2003
mzheng said:
I definitely would have judged Michelle's footwork harder with GOE. However, on a different note, I find it quite difficult to compare circular footwork and straight line. Having done both, they are much more different skills. *shrugs* But that's an argument for structure!
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- Jul 11, 2003
I firmly believe if someone is going to explain the CoP in its details, will be as biased as the judges. If you have a favorite you see bad elements as forgiving and if you see the adversary, you so not see the whole picture. This is not a bash. It is understandable and it works for whomever has a favorite. It's just not good reporting. The awarding of GOE plusses and minuses are as subjective in the technical as they are in the component scores, imo.
Joe
Joe
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- Jun 21, 2003
Thanks for the details, Elingrace. That's interesting. So Sasha got a total of +2 on her fall, even after the negative GOE and mandatory deduction, and Michelle only got 2.09 for a double Lutz, including the 1.1 factor. That is a definitely a factor in CoP versus 6.0 judging, where a fall is usually severely pounished in the first mark.
About spirals, I believe the reason that Irina gets a level 3 is because not only does she do a nice change of edge, but also because in the Bielmann position, with the hands over the head, it is harder to maintain your balance than with your arms out to the side (however beautifully positioned). So Irina can definitely match Sasha and Michelle on that element even without the Wow factor that Sasha and Michelle count on.
Mathman
About spirals, I believe the reason that Irina gets a level 3 is because not only does she do a nice change of edge, but also because in the Bielmann position, with the hands over the head, it is harder to maintain your balance than with your arms out to the side (however beautifully positioned). So Irina can definitely match Sasha and Michelle on that element even without the Wow factor that Sasha and Michelle count on.
Mathman
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- Aug 5, 2003
Joesitz said:
That's why I only showed the base values and the suggested GOE deductions for Sasha's fall and the hand down...I'm a Sasha fan, so I am very biased towards her. I did it strictly from a base value point of view, and as for the technical base values of the programs, Sasha's was higher.
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- Aug 5, 2003
Mathman said:
If you look at the ISU site, it actually says that one of the qualifications for a LEvel 3 spiral is to maintain a Biellman position.
re: COP
Since Michelle said she's changing things for COP (specifically mentioning the spins), it's kind of pointless to score this version.
However, Michelle's spiral sequence is definitely not a level one, it's a level 3. She would also get bonus points on the jumps she performs later in her program - the salcow, lutz, & toe. I also think her footwork is borderline level 3 - if she performs it full-out, I can see her getting high GOE's.
I know Sasha scored well under COP last season, but I'm not sure the Nutcracker is in the same league as the original version of Swan Lake. It's hard to say how it will be scored.
Since Michelle said she's changing things for COP (specifically mentioning the spins), it's kind of pointless to score this version.
However, Michelle's spiral sequence is definitely not a level one, it's a level 3. She would also get bonus points on the jumps she performs later in her program - the salcow, lutz, & toe. I also think her footwork is borderline level 3 - if she performs it full-out, I can see her getting high GOE's.
I know Sasha scored well under COP last season, but I'm not sure the Nutcracker is in the same league as the original version of Swan Lake. It's hard to say how it will be scored.
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- Jul 11, 2003
elingrace4eva said:
Ata girl! I'm a Kwan fan and I am constantly finding fault with her. It doesn't change my fanatic feelings for her but it does make me happy when I see improvement. From the whole picture, I peferred Kwan over Cohen. Kwan for me has body language and Cohen has ballet barre language. That's the big difference when I watch. Both have technical faults. As a sports fan, I can see Irina passing them by.
Joe
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- Aug 5, 2003
MKbeauty said:
Her spirals are defeinitely not level 3 in this program. She doesn't do a back spiral, and she doesn't hold her Y-hold long enough to call it an actual position (you have to hold it for three seconds at least). You need 3 positions to call it even a level two. She would likely get +3 GOE on her spirals, because she does perform them well.
Her footwork, as well as Sasha's, could each be judged higher...but they did appear to be at the same level, so I kept them at a Level 2.
The levels have nothing to do with how well the skater performs the move, it has to do with what the skater actually does in the move. Theoretically, you could fall on your footwork and still have a level three because of what you did in it. You simply would get 3 points taken off.
Michelle's Spiral Sequence
Michelle does her forward Change of Edge Spiral on right foot from FI to FO. This count as two positions since spirals are counted by the edge. (Isn't that one of the reasons Irina's spiral sequence is level 3? She does Change of Edge spiral in biellman position, then back biellman in different foot. 3 positions thanks to COE.) Then, she does back spiral (outside edge I think. Not positive) on left foot. She finishes the sequence with owen spiral on right foot. Held longer than at Marshall's I believe. She has 4 positions total if you count owen spiral.
Michelle does her forward Change of Edge Spiral on right foot from FI to FO. This count as two positions since spirals are counted by the edge. (Isn't that one of the reasons Irina's spiral sequence is level 3? She does Change of Edge spiral in biellman position, then back biellman in different foot. 3 positions thanks to COE.) Then, she does back spiral (outside edge I think. Not positive) on left foot. She finishes the sequence with owen spiral on right foot. Held longer than at Marshall's I believe. She has 4 positions total if you count owen spiral.
elingrace4eva said:
In general for any of other elements this is true. But as I read some where else my understand the level 3 fw critirias is more related to the execution quality than the difficulty, as long as you fullfill all the features in Level 2.
Here is the link to detail fw analysis given by jwcardinal11 at MKF based on Marshall's:
http://p216.ezboard.com/fmichellekw...sageRange?topicID=23411.topic&start=1&stop=20
After given detail what each did in their fw. His conclusions:
For MK
"
So in terms of Level 2, here is what she has:
- Mainly using Variety of turns and steps (YES - she uses 5 different methods of turning - rocker, three-turn, choctaw, twizzle, bracket - and she uses 3 different steps - progressives, toesteps, hops)
- 3 changes of direction (YES - 7)
- Change of speed during step sequence (YES)
- Modest upper body movement during steps (YES)
All four of those features are fulfilled, which makes more than the three required. So it's definitely at least a Level 2.
In terms of Level 3, here is what she has:
- Mainly use of Complex turns and steps (YES - see above)
- 4 or more changes of direction (YES - 7)
- Quick changes of speed during step sequence (probably not)
- Full use of upper body movement during steps (YES/NO)
- Quick changes from steps to turns (YES/NO)
The last two features can be argued either way, I think. So that's why I'm saying that it can be called as a Level 3.
"
For IS:
"
So let's look at her Level 2 features:
- Mainly using Variety of turns and steps (YES - she uses 3 or 4 different methods of turning - three-turn, choctaw, bracket, twizzle (I say 3 or 4 because I'm not sure whether the last step is a twizzle or a triple-three) - and she uses 2 or 3 different steps - progressives, hops, toestep (I say 2 or 3 because the bunny hop area could be construed as a toestep))
- 3 changes of direction (YES - 8 )
- Change of speed during step sequence (YES)
- Modest upper body movement during steps (YES)
All four of those features are fulfilled, which makes more than the three required. So it's definitely at least a Level 2.
In terms of Level 3, here is what she has:
- Mainly use of Complex turns and steps (I'd say NO)
- 4 or more changes of direction (YES - 8 )
- Quick changes of speed during step sequence (probably not)
- Full use of upper body movement during steps (NO)
- Quick changes from steps to turns (probably not)
I definitely don't see this as a Level 3. But a *very* generous technical specialist could make the case - but that would be a very long shot.
"
Shizuka Arakawa from GPF:
"
Level 2 features:
- Mainly using Variety of turns and steps (YES - she uses 5 different methods of turning - three-turn, choctaw, bracket, twizzle, rocker - and she uses 3 different steps - progressives, hops, toestep)
- 3 changes of direction (YES - 6)
- Change of speed during step sequence (YES)
- Modest upper body movement during steps (YES)
Again, all four are fulfilled (the change of speed to me is a bit questionable) - so it's definitely a Level 2.
Level 3 features:
- Mainly use of Complex turns and steps (YES - see above)
- 4 or more changes of direction (YES - 6)
- Quick changes of speed during step sequence (NO)
- Full use of upper body movement during steps (NO)
- Quick changes from steps to turns (YES)
I think she changes from steps to turns the best out of her, Irina, and Michelle - a lot of it has to do with the use of toesteps and half-loops in combination with twizzles. But it's unlikely to be called a Level 3 step sequence.
"
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"The levels have nothing to do with how well the skater performs the move, it has to do with what the skater actually does in the move."
I think you misunderstood my post (or I was unclear). Michelle's footwork is borderline level 3 "plus" she should also received + grade of execution on top of the level 2/3. Her sequence is difficult and she performs it very well. Supposedly, she even performed it better/faster in practice.
I'm not sure what Sasha's GOE would be. The few times I saw her footwork sequence, it was executed sort of slow and cautiously. Maybe it has something to do with the music tempo, I'm not sure.
I think you misunderstood my post (or I was unclear). Michelle's footwork is borderline level 3 "plus" she should also received + grade of execution on top of the level 2/3. Her sequence is difficult and she performs it very well. Supposedly, she even performed it better/faster in practice.
I'm not sure what Sasha's GOE would be. The few times I saw her footwork sequence, it was executed sort of slow and cautiously. Maybe it has something to do with the music tempo, I'm not sure.
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- Sep 23, 2004
For everyone's benefit, here's the ISU explanation on how to identify the level of difficulty in the spiral step sequence. If onw of the experts in the forum can expand the explanation, I'll greatly appreciate it!
Definition of Spiral Variations
Simple Variation (of position): A spiral position with limited leg and or arm movement. EXAMPLE: Bending of free leg, bending of skating leg, changes in arm positions, turning of head (all of these not affecting main body core position) and independent from skating edge or direction.
Difficult Variation (of position): EXAMPLE: Twisting the upper body affecting the main body core and balance, bending or pulling the upper body towards the skating leg, moving free leg from behind to the side of the body while maintaining free leg height, obtaining the Bielmann position.
Level 1:
Element must be executed according to rule book.
Level 2:
Element includes three of the following features :
•Sequence incorporates three or more spiral positions (mandatory for Short Program)
•One difficult variations of position
•Spirals are skating both forward and backward
•Use of both edges
Level 3:
Element includes five of the following features :
•Sequence incorporates three or more spiral positions plus:
•Two difficult variation of positions
•Spirals are skating both forward and backward
•Use of both edges
•Unsupported change of edge during one spiral (3 second hold following the change)
•Unsupported spiral position with the free leg either sideways or forward
• Free leg in a total split position either sideway or forward, but holding with one arm
Definition of Spiral Variations
Simple Variation (of position): A spiral position with limited leg and or arm movement. EXAMPLE: Bending of free leg, bending of skating leg, changes in arm positions, turning of head (all of these not affecting main body core position) and independent from skating edge or direction.
Difficult Variation (of position): EXAMPLE: Twisting the upper body affecting the main body core and balance, bending or pulling the upper body towards the skating leg, moving free leg from behind to the side of the body while maintaining free leg height, obtaining the Bielmann position.
Level 1:
Element must be executed according to rule book.
Level 2:
Element includes three of the following features :
•Sequence incorporates three or more spiral positions (mandatory for Short Program)
•One difficult variations of position
•Spirals are skating both forward and backward
•Use of both edges
Level 3:
Element includes five of the following features :
•Sequence incorporates three or more spiral positions plus:
•Two difficult variation of positions
•Spirals are skating both forward and backward
•Use of both edges
•Unsupported change of edge during one spiral (3 second hold following the change)
•Unsupported spiral position with the free leg either sideways or forward
• Free leg in a total split position either sideway or forward, but holding with one arm
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- Aug 5, 2003
MKbeauty said:
It is very difficult. And I think it deserves a level 2 rating. I don't think that it was over the top difficult, but it was very good footwork.
When I saw Sasha's footwork (granted, it was on TV), it didn't appear slow or cautious to me. I saw it as fitting with the beats of the music, and just as difficult as Michelle's.
And I refuse to comment on GOE, because, again, I'm bias toward Sasha and I don't think I could give an objective opinion.
If you were to give Michelle's footwork a Level 3, with your justification, then Sasha would also deserve a level 3, from YOUR JUSTIFICATION. I personally think, from what I could see, that they both deserved a Level 2.
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