Tuktamysheva's scores

starla16 said:

theres also Trusova, You and Kihira, but yeah any medal will be a feat

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I forgot Kihira! I think Bradie should be favored over Young You and will be at a disadvantage compared to Trusova and Kihira. I am most eager to see what Medvedeva brings. But I guess that's why they hold a competition, to see what happens. Personally, I can't wait.

Mathman said:

I forgot Kihira! I think Bradie should be favored over Young You and will be at a disadvantage compared to Trusova and Kihira. I am most eager to see what Medvedeva brings. But I guess that's why they hold a competition, to see what happens. Personally, I can't wait.

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Yes, Skate Canada is the best women's competition of the GP series. (NHK will also be exciting Kihira vs Aliona (my two favorites)). But, next week will be so amazing. I hope everyone is healthy and able to perform at their best.

theharleyquinn said:

I wish people could enjoy skaters because of their skating and not which country they represent. There is always Worlds and Euros/4CC for more countries to be represented. I like that the GPF rewards those who skated well and doesn't limit participants.

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Haha, this is me. I root for who I like, regardless of where they are from. And more often than not, I get to deal with "local hostility" (aka family members ) when I don't cheer for the home team.

colormyworld240 said:

You can compare her to another skater known for jumps, Trusova. Sasha like Liza is not very flexible, so she doesn't get the gorgeous spin positions of Alena and Alina. However, she does everything else that she can; her spins are perfectly centred, all her non flexibility-depending positions are fast, and she has all the requirements to consistently get level 4 on all of them. These differences on 3 spins makes a pretty big difference. Where as Liza is not only not flexible, but her spins are slow and she travels. Sasha doesn't have the skating skills of some of the top skaters. But again, she does the best she can. She is very fast, and has decent edges. She also does enough to consistently get level 4 on her step sequence. Does she skate like Kostornaia? No. But she's doing everything she can with her abilities. Compare that to Liza, who does not have great SS but is also slow and loses levels. And of course, Sasha has many transitions. Again she is not flexible so she can't do the typical beautiful extended leg lifts like Anna, but she has many other transitions like different turns and cantilevers. Then look at Liza, who doesn't have much in between elements. All these make a huge difference. And then the main difference is that while both skaters are TES skaters, Sasha has 4 quads which is a big difference from two 3As. And Sasha also maximizes her BV with her layout, but Liza doesn't.

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1. In her top shape, Liza has pretty good, all level four spins. Did you watched her performances last season? Flexibility-wise they all lose it with age and injuries. Liza has bilman back in 2016.
2. Liza’s jumps are technically much better than Sasha’s: they are effortless while Sasha’s are quite forced.
3. Transitions... why everyone is using it as a main argument to put Liza down? What are we watching, ice-dance?
If in the next cycle there will be a new generation of girls who would do much more advanced transitions than any current girls, but without any quads... and then someone like Trusova who, then older, would become much slower and inflexible, but still has her quads and other elements, would you then put them ahead of her as well? What kind of sport are we taking about?

Also, there’s unfixable gap in TES scores between Trusova and Tuktamysheva, even in SP, where the first doesn’t make anything outstanding, which again, shows how subjective-political-unfair the judging is.

I'm British, so none of the top skaters are from my country. I have favourites from a wide range of countries

Mishaminion said:

Oh boy, you claimed you actually like Tennell and I'd hate to see how you talk about a skater you don't like. Your extreme bias is fully on display here, even dragging Alina and Evgenia into it now... who were not even at SA

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Alina and Evgenia are extremely hard-working girls, but they are also the most over scored lady-skaters in the world.

Lipea said:

Alina and Evgenia are extremely hard-working girls, but they are also the most over scored lady-skaters in the world.

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Still, they're not THAT bad. They've got three world championships and an Olympic gold medal between them.

Mishaminion said:

I'm British, so none of the top skaters are from my country. I have favourites from a wide range of countries

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And I’m a post-Soviet country raised (not Russia), native Russian speaker, half-Asian American citizen

And? Liza got all the titles but OG. She could be on the podium above Medvedeva last season, who was given an unfair opportunity to be selected to the team after placing 7th at the RusNats despite all possible judges support. Neither Lipnitskaya, nor Tuktamysheva got this chance after failing at Nationals a year following their victory season. But Evgenia got some cool sponsors, and supporters like TAT.

RemyRose said:

She lost to Kostornaia at Senior Nationals 2018 (2017-2018 season) when Alena won bronze. Tukt finished 7th.

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Ah thank you! I missed that! No excuses then.

Mathman said:

Why?

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what you mean "why"? cuz she ask me

How do you know those lines drawn "on the ice" are actually on the ice when all you have is a blank white canvas of ice and a camera in continuous movement?

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because if you want to know the flight direction of the skater you need a points of take-off and landing. So you need blade position in this moments.

The game is in the books. On to Skate Canada!

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what?

Lipea said:

Also, there’s unfixable gap in TES scores between Trusova and Tuktamysheva, even in SP, where the first doesn’t make anything outstanding, which again, shows how subjective-political-unfair the judging is.

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I'm not sure about this. Liza got 33.79 at SA and Sasha 33.78 at Nepela. Tuktik's Lz was called under but still there is not much difference in BV.
I mean Sasha has a 3Lz-3Lo combo in the second half

Orlov said:

what you mean "why"? cuz she ask me.

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I meant, why did you draw a red line? Or any line? Did someone ask you to draw a line?

what?

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What I meant was, Skate America is over. All the red lines in the world are not going to change the outcome. On to Skate Canada!

Mathman said:

I meant, why did you draw a red line? Or any line? Did someone ask you to draw a line?

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why did you decide that you can talk to me in that tone? I "draw lines" because I can. Because I'm interested in this sport. This is called analysis.

What I meant was, Skate America is over. All the red lines in the world are not going to change the outcome. On to Skate Canada!

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This was not SA. This video from Finland. You missed the start of the conversation and do not understand the context.

Lipea said:

1. In her top shape, Liza has pretty good, all level four spins. Did you watched her performances last season? Flexibility-wise they all lose it with age and injuries. Liza has bilman back in 2016.
2. Liza’s jumps are technically much better than Sasha’s: they are effortless while Sasha’s are quite forced.
3. Transitions... why everyone is using it as a main argument to put Liza down? What are we watching, ice-dance?
If in the next cycle there will be a new generation of girls who would do much more advanced transitions than any current girls, but without any quads... and then someone like Trusova who, then older, would become much slower and inflexible, but still has her quads and other elements, would you then put them ahead of her as well? What kind of sport are we taking about?

Also, there’s unfixable gap in TES scores between Trusova and Tuktamysheva, even in SP, where the first doesn’t make anything outstanding, which again, shows how subjective-political-unfair the judging is.

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1. But Liza in her top shape wasn't competing against Sasha now. The comment I responded to by you was Liza vs. the other skaters today. So that's where the problem is; her spins are worse than Sasha who has similarly weak flexibility, which gives another jumper like Sasha an advantage. The problem is she doesn't have level 4 spins now, which is a part of why she is scoring lower. You don't need to be super flexible to get level 4 spins, nor do you need a Biellmann to get a level 4 layback. She's not losing because her her jump GOE (though I agree they should be higher), she's losing because of all the other areas, lower scoring elements, but do add up over the entire program.
2. Liza's 3Lz and axel are better than Sasha's. But I would say Sasha has a better flip, salchow, and loop.
3. I'm not using transitions as a main argument. I literally just gave you a list of many other things, transitions only being one of them. If next cycle there is a girl who is doing quads and better transitions, spins, and choreography than Sasha, then yes, they would deserve to be ahead, obviously. That is already happening with Anna who has much better spins and performance/interpretation, and scores close to Sasha while having 1 less quad. Or Alena, who scores close to Sasha because her GOE is very high on her spins and steps, and has better SS, with no quad. That's the sport; those who do better are scored higher. You have to look at the whole picture. Liza has beautiful jumps, but when others have more difficult jumps (even if slightly weaker), better spins, and better transitions and skating skills, then they deserve to be ahead. Jumps are extremely important in skating and they are the highest scoring elements, but there are other factors as well that do add up to make a difference if they have difficult jumps as well. That's why I made the comparison to Sasha, someone who has 4 quads. That alone is not enough, you have to maximize all your other areas including your weaknesses and also the layout for BV. Those other areas (spin positions, choreography positions) may be easier for more naturally flexible skaters, but you can see with Sasha that even without the optimal flexibility, there are other things you can work on. The point is losing your flexibility with age does not mean you lose everything, there are other things you can do to score higher.

composer said:

I think Liza may indeed have missed the memo last year that the 3A were coming... among the senior Russian ladies isn’t she the only one who hasn’t lost a competition to the 3A until this season (having missed RusNats last season)?

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silverfoxes said:

WTT scores are always inflated, nobody takes them seriously. Yes, she has a great and stable 3A. But again - what about the rest of the program? Now there are multiple other girls with quads or 3A, and they are not one-trick ponies. One element is not going to save you if everything else is just average. Not when the field is as deep as it is now.

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Watching her in the K&C for both last week and this week I got the distinct impression that she's realizing that being able to do the triple axel is nowhere near enough to be competitive. She's been in the competition field long enough to know that Shcherbakova and Kostornaia (who she has faced) will only get better reputation points in their skating as they compete more this season and they are both a more complete package of skating than she is.

When discussions about skaters to whom the judges have been previously very generous and are now very stingy, it really makes me feel sorry for the skaters.
Reputation scores, home scores, judges flavor of the season scores, it all really puts me off enjoying competitions. It ought to be pretty clear in the rules what skaters must do to get high scores, but when the numbers are down on paper, it becomes less and less clear.
This is not a Liza problem, this is a judges problem.
Maybe Liza should never have been given high PCS at all, -her skating skills are pretty weak compared to top in the women's field... but at one point she did get those high scores and now she's been dumped by the judges in favor of someone else. This makes me move further and further away from being a fan of new skaters. -Sure, the judges scores say they are the bees knees, that their skating skills are superb, that their interpretation is almost flawless. --But wait a few seasons and that same skater will suddenly have bad skating skills and their interpretation will be considered sub-par in favor of the next shiny new skater just up from juniors. -This is my cynical side speaking. Most of the time I try to shut out the scores and just think about the performances that move me, regardless of who the judges like this season.

Pantsu said:

I'm not sure about this. Liza got 33.79 at SA and Sasha 33.78 at Nepela. Tuktik's Lz was called under but still there is not much difference in BV.
I mean Sasha has a 3Lz-3Lo combo in the second half

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You took my point wrong way. There is a gap between Liza and Sasha in TES of SP in favor of Sasha, despite Liza does 3A there, and Sasha doesn’t jump any special jumps there.

Interspectator said:

When discussions about skaters to whom the judges have been previously very generous and are now very stingy, it really makes me feel sorry for the skaters.
Reputation scores, home scores, judges flavor of the season scores, it all really puts me off enjoying competitions. It ought to be pretty clear in the rules what skaters must do to get high scores, but when the numbers are down on paper, it becomes less and less clear.
This is not a Liza problem, this is a judges problem.
Maybe Liza should never have been given high PCS at all, -her skating skills are pretty weak compared to top in the women's field... but at one point she did get those high scores and now she's been dumped by the judges in favor of someone else. This makes me move further and further away from being a fan of new skaters. -Sure, the judges scores say they are the bees knees, that their skating skills are superb, that their interpretation is almost flawless. --But wait a few seasons and that same skater will suddenly have bad skating skills and their interpretation will be considered sub-par in favor of the next shiny new skater just up from juniors. -This is my cynical side speaking. Most of the time I try to shut out the scores and just think about the performances that move me, regardless of who the judges like this season.

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You don’t get the question.

1. The question is why her TES, her GOEs are so low, not PCS.

2. And she was NEVER judged generously in any department in comparison to other top ladies. She is a WCh, still, even in her gold/post gold season she’d get by far less points less than Zagitova or Medvedev now, who are better in only two aspects of PCS. How was she being overscored?
I’ll repeat here: neither Z nor M are outstanding PCS-wise, although marks show that. Truly outstanding in PCS in current ladies belong to only Alena Kostornaia and Satoko Miyahara. Scherbakova and Tursynbaeva are great as well, perhaps just not as much. The rest “top ladies” all have certain issues.

So yes, the PCS judging are, in the most cases, extremely stretchable and flexible, to the point that they often fail to justify their existence. The original point of having the artistic mark is to make this sport enjoyful to the audience, not to fill it with as many confusing small moves per second of a program as possible. That’s why “choreo elements” shouldn’t be part of the technical marks, and ISU did try to reflect it in the revised system specifying what each point of GOE is supposed to be awarded for. However, the judges seem to neglect those rules whenever they wish so.

I wish there would be an appeal/punishment system for judges and tech specialists whenever they make wrong calls (or not make calls when they should’ve done so) or put GOE marks that don’t match the rules.

Amei said:

Watching her in the K&C for both last week and this week I got the distinct impression that she's realizing that being able to do the triple axel is nowhere near enough to be competitive. She's been in the competition field long enough to know that Shcherbakova and Kostornaia (who she has faced) will only get better reputation points in their skating as they compete more this season and they are both a more complete package of skating than she is.

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How does it relate to her being dumped 12points under Tennell? Can you leave Kostornaia and Scherbakova comparison alone? Because Liza's scores are like 20-30 points below them, so why constantly bringing them up?