Why Did They Get Rid of Spirals As A Requirement In Ladies Skating?

Mathman · Nov 9, 2019

jimini said:
Pre-IJS, spiral sequences were generally "blink and you miss them" spirals/kicks from the skaters who couldn't do them well ...

My memory is exactly the opposite. To me, the so-called "spiral sequences" that they do now are "blink and you miss them." Pre-IJS the, the extended spiral was a major feature of.the program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYwAZb14Ags&t=2m25s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lRMiRgKnE8&t=25s (if you count spread-eagle spirals for men)

IMHO the begining of the end of the spiral was when they started doing the dog-and-hydrant position.

jenaj · Nov 9, 2019

For years, there was a mandatory spiral sequence in the short program. It didn’t require foot-grabbing or 3-second holds. IJS ruined the spiral sequence by mandating how long each move had to be held and rewarding catch-foots. And after they ruined it, they eliminated it. I think the real reason spirals are no longer rewarded on their own is because they can’t figure out how to quantify them as an element without making them something they are not. I also miss the classic layback spin and scratch spins.

Harriet · Nov 9, 2019

Equity, perhaps? Why should the women be forced to do something that the men weren't when the only apparent justification for the different requirement was that the spiral was a 'pretty' ladies' movement for ladies to show off how ladylike they were, not one men were inherently incapable of performing?

Maybe it would have been a better idea to make spiral sequences a requirement for the men, too, but that was never going to happen. At least now both sexes get the option in the choreo sequence.

el henry · Nov 9, 2019

Required spiral for both genders :rock:

ancientpeas · Nov 9, 2019

I'd argue that it is part of the greater issue of clutter. IJS rewards business rather than allowing anything to breathe. I don't blame choreographers for trying to shove as much stuff in there as possible to get their skaters maximum points because otherwise they'd get hired less often. Some music is perfect for clutter but a lot of it is actually more subtle and nuanced and a lot of that has been lost in the IJS. So you get programs where the music is not really reflected in the movement that is being done by the skater.

I think a lot of skaters who seem to be rushing through their spirals and other moves could be doing lovely ones but they just aren't being given the time to complete them and show how nice they could look because they are racing on to the next move to get more points.

A lot of people felt at the time IJS came out that this would be one of the costs of the system and I can't say that I think they were wrong.

jenaj · Nov 9, 2019

Harriet said:
Equity, perhaps? Why should the women be forced to do something that the men weren't when the only apparent justification for the different requirement was that the spiral was a 'pretty' ladies' movement for ladies to show off how ladylike they were, not one men were inherently incapable of performing?

Maybe it would have been a better idea to make spiral sequences a requirement for the men, too, but that was never going to happen. At least now both sexes get the option in the choreo sequence.

There have always been different requirements for men and women. Even now. For instance, women are not allowed to do a quad in the short program and the men are. Under 6.0, when the free program was actually "free," everyone could choose to do a spiral or not. Almost all of the ladies did a spiral in the long but few men did. In fact, the only man I recall doing one was Shawn Sawyer.

ancientpeas · Nov 9, 2019

Heck.. I still remember when women had to do the required double jump of the season in the short program. One year it was the loop, one year the flip, one year the lutz.

I think, to be fair, they will have to allow quads in the short next year. It seems unfair not to. That only 2 people can do it is hardly the point. If they want to do it and are willing to take the risk-reward they shouldn't be held back. We didn't hold back the men.

Ic3Rabbit · Nov 9, 2019

I'm just going to say that being able to do a spiral and flexibility for that has little to do with jumping or the ability to do so well. Michelle Kwan is a prime example of this from the past. She could jump and do one heck of a spiral.

Moving on from that I just want to say that currently the best spiral is owned by Karen Chen.

gkelly · Nov 9, 2019

The first ratified quad was landed in a men's FS in 1988. The first quad combination was ca. 1991. The first competition when 3 men landed quads was 1997.

Quads were first allowed in the men's SP in 1998-99. But only as the jump out of steps. Quad combos were first allowed for 2001.

The first FS with two different quads was ca. 1999 or 2000; two quads allowed in the SP around 2005. I'd have to look up the details. But rule changes have not been immediate for men either.

RobinA · Nov 9, 2019

ancientpeas said:
I'd argue that it is part of the greater issue of clutter. IJS rewards business rather than allowing anything to breathe. I don't blame choreographers for trying to shove as much stuff in there as possible to get their skaters maximum points because otherwise they'd get hired less often. Some music is perfect for clutter but a lot of it is actually more subtle and nuanced and a lot of that has been lost in the IJS. So you get programs where the music is not really reflected in the movement that is being done by the skater.

I think a lot of skaters who seem to be rushing through their spirals and other moves could be doing lovely ones but they just aren't being given the time to complete them and show how nice they could look because they are racing on to the next move to get more points.

A lot of people felt at the time IJS came out that this would be one of the costs of the system and I can't say that I think they were wrong.

This is way I say I'd love to see Zagitova do a non-manic program. Her programs are not really enjoyable to watch (Russian programs haven't been for a number of years) and I'd like to see her try her hand at a really beautiful program that suits whatever her skating style actually is. I have a feeling she has something in her besides her usual seizure-on-ice program.

1111bm · Nov 9, 2019

Mathman said:
I think the problem is that nowadays skaters just do perfunctory blah spiral segments instead of trying to make the element count. It doesn't count, so why bother?

From what I've been gathering in this thread so far, quality spirals didn't count for much even back when they were still a requirement? :shrug:

And nowadays, if a skater chooses to do one as part of their choreo sequence, it does still count in a way. One could even argue that they're trying to reward it more with the higher BV and way higher GOE of the ChSq that came with the latest rule change, at least in theory.

And I'm sure a great spiral also adds to the general impression of a program and a skater's skills i.e. PCS. Again, at least in theory. In practice there's too many other factors impacting the scoring as well. And of course a nice spiral won't save you if other parts of your skate are sloppy or have messy elements.

Mathman · Nov 9, 2019

1111bm said:
From what I've been gathering in this thread so far, quality spirals didn't count for much even back when they were still a requirement?

By "back then" we are talking about before the IJS came into being in 2003, right? My memory was that spirals were not exactly required in the free skate, but on the other hand, neither were jumps. It was just that ladies were expected to do them as part of what a competitive figure skating program was supposed to be. The judges would then decide if a fine spiral contributed to a 5.8 or 5.9 in the technical mark or in the presentation mark. Same with a layback spin -- it was expected, but no one was going to shoot you if you left it out (just mark you down to 5.4

).

gotoschool · Nov 9, 2019

Moxiejan said:
Another element that I’ve missed is the long, deeply arched Ina Bauer. Thank you, Amber Glenn, for including one in your LP!

In addition to thanking Amber Glenn, thank you, Young You, for your beautiful one too.

gkelly · Nov 9, 2019

Iirc in the late 1990s the "well balanced program" guidelines recommended a spiral seq in ladies' FS, and in early 2000s it was required. But before that wb program rules started there were no rules about FS content aside from zayak and other jump rules.

nadster · Nov 9, 2019

I think another factor is that when levels were involved in spirals , the choreography of the spiral sequence was the same all the time.

Often skaters were more concerned including the levels than the music.

Both in ladies and pairs programs ( even worse in pairs BTW ) the spiral sequences were so cookie-cutter that the music did not mean anything.

Mathman · Nov 9, 2019

Harriet said:
Equity, perhaps? Why should the women be forced to do something that the men weren't when the only apparent justification for the different requirement was that the spiral was a 'pretty' ladies' movement for ladies to show off how ladylike they were, not one men were inherently incapable of performing?

Skating can have it's cake and eat it, too! That is, it can advocate for equality of the sexes while still honoring the differences. Let ladies do a pretty Arabesque and let men do a virile smash-mouth spread eagle.

anonymoose_au · Nov 9, 2019

el henry said:
Required spiral for both genders

People will no doubt disagree, but when Plushy did spirals I was like "That's the coolest thing ever! What a boss!" :laugh:

I'm always super impressed when I rewatch YouTube videos of those programs.

Oddly enough I don't remember Plushy ever doing a spread-eagle.

karne · Nov 9, 2019

Required spiral sequences for ladies is nothing more than an archaic sexist rule based on the faulty sexist premise that all ladies are flexible and that they should just look pretty.

They should stay in the grave where they belong, along with mandatory laybacks.

Globetrotter · Nov 9, 2019

1111bm said:
From what I've been gathering in this thread so far, quality spirals didn't count for much even back when they were still a requirement?

And nowadays, if a skater chooses to do one as part of their choreo sequence, it does still count in a way. One could even argue that they're trying to reward it more with the higher BV and way higher GOE of the ChSq that came with the latest rule change, at least in theory.

And I'm sure a great spiral also adds to the general impression of a program and a skater's skills i.e. PCS. Again, at least in theory. In practice there's too many other factors impacting the scoring as well. And of course a nice spiral won't save you if other parts of your skate are sloppy or have messy elements.

They are. Spirals are considered under transitions. The ability to hold the edge and change edges also will add to your SS. Karen Chen and Satoko Miyahara are the only ones who hold out the arabesque position and Jason Brown does a nice Y spiral transition.

draqq · Nov 10, 2019

I would like the ISU to consider adding specific Choreo elements in singles - a choreo spiral (which I think they had for one year), a choreo spin, a choreo jump series, etc. A choreo layback spin would be lovely so that skaters can do something other than side layback, then catchfoot, then Biellmann. Just a general choreo spin in and of itself would allow for more scratch spins.

Why Did They Get Rid of Spirals As A Requirement In Ladies Skating?

Mathman

jenaj

Harriet

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW

jenaj

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️

gkelly

RobinA

1111bm

Mathman

gotoschool

gkelly

nadster

Mathman

anonymoose_au

Insert weird opinion here

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Globetrotter

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom

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