Changing Process for Qualifying to GPF

Ella5555 · Nov 16, 2019

Just pondering if the process for selecting skaters for the Grand Prix Final should be changed: For the current season (like prior seasons), some good skaters will not make the finals that may be deserving (e.g., Boyang Jin won Cup of China while Mariah Bell had two good skates while winning bronze medals at SA and IdF, but both are unlikely to make the finals). Some ideas for changing process:
(1) Similar to American football and baseball, have wildcards. For example, the next two best skaters/teams based on results would qualify for a total of 8 skaters/teams for each discipline. This would help a person like Mariah, but would not be an excessive change to the total process.
(2) If a person/team finishes #1 at one Grand Prix event, then they’d automatically qualify for GPF, provided their placement in the other Grand Prix event is not too low (e.g., no lower than 6th place). I don’t think this would happen very often, and, if it did, it would mean, in the Boyang example, just one additional skater in the men’s event in the GPF.
(3) The least likely scenario is to have a semi-final with a total of 12 skaters/teams participating per discipline, which would be winnowed down to 6 for the final. It might create a little more excitement (as there is with playoffs in other sports) with the potential for upsets of some favorites. However, the logistics and costs for an additional competition might be a nightmare - and it might be too hard to fit into some skaters’ schedules (e.g., someone like Nathan Chen who already has difficulty fitting the current competitions into his school schedule).
(4) Finally, should we just leave as is? Best overall skaters over 2 competitions qualify.
Thoughts, anyone?

rain · Nov 16, 2019

There always seem to be some weird omissions from the Grand Prix Final each year, of skaters who seem obviously deserving but didn't make it. One of the biggest problems can be that some GP fields end up being significantly weaker than others, so a skate who perhaps could have won a grand prix will only finish third or fourth.

This year I'd like to see both Medvedeva and Bell in the final for the ladies, for example, but because Medvedeva had one bad program (Skate Canada SP) she will not be there, and with two bronze medals neither will Bell.

Last season Gilles and Poirier should really have been at the final IMO. This season Moore-Towers/Marinaro have the possibility of not making it, when I think they likely should, and it's just luck of the draw, to some extent. I remember in the Olympic year, I think it was, Fernandez didn't make the final. Did anyone really think he wasn't a contender?

I think your idea of wildcard spots isn't a bad one for this reason. I'm not sure what they should be based on. I'd just like to see some of the skaters who are out through flukes or bad luck included. Maybe something to do with high scores? I know that has its problems, too....

moonvine · Nov 16, 2019

Why not just increase the number of spots?

Mathman · Nov 16, 2019

For item #2 (the winners of each event automatically go), if I remember my history right, that was the original intent of the Grand Prix Final (Originally called the Champions Series Final). The individual events (especially the original three, Skate canada, Skate America, and NHK) were invitational. Then at the end of the season the winners of these events would face off against each other in a grand show-down.

But because the same skater might win more than two events (Michelle Kwan won Skate America, Skate Canada, and the German event in the inaugural season 1995-96), they seeded some second place finishers into the final to fill up the field.

Edit: A remnant of the original idea persists in the tie-breaking rules: 1st and 4th beats 2nd and 3rd, etc.

Mathman · Nov 16, 2019

For suggestion #1 (following the football or baseball model, and expanding to eight teams), the reason that works out so nice in those sports is that 8 is a power of 2, so you can match up the teams 2x2 and it all works out to a single winner.

But no matter how many entries are allowed, there will always be someone who is the best of the skaters who don't make the cut and are left out "unfairly." If we invite twelve skaters, that 13th guy is going to be disappointed, and so are his fans.

CaroLiza_fan · Nov 17, 2019

moonvine said:
Why not just increase the number of spots?

That has always been my opinion. Have 8 skaters qualify for the GP Final, so that each segment has 2 groups of 4.

After seeing the collisions we had during warm-ups at the Cup Of China a few years ago, I have not been comfortable with having groups of 6, because it means we have too many people on the ice at once during the warm-ups (especially in Pairs and Ice Dance). Ever since, I have become a bit of a stuck record, calling for the groups to be reduced to 4 at every opportunity I can get.

Yes, I know it will make the segments last a longer amount of time. But the safety of the skaters must come first. And I will never apologise for thinking that.

CaroLiza_fan

Happy Skates · Nov 17, 2019

I don't get how #1 is different from just increasing the number of spots to 8? What makes them "wildcards"? I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to increasing the number of spots, but I also don't think not qualifying to the final is the end of the world for a top skater, and there are always a few top skaters left out. Take Javi for example, who missed the GPF in the Olympic season. Borser said in an interview that it actually ended up giving him more time to train and was a good thing.

As for #2, I actually don't think that is a good idea. Part of the point of the GPF is to take the skaters who performed consistently well over the GP season. And if someone wins one event but gets buried at another, they weren't one of the 6 best in that particular GP season (and this isn't anything against Boyang, I like him and wish he could've been in the final). Honestly, this way its more unpredictable and exciting. A skater really has to do well at both events to make the final. And yeah, its sad for the skater who wins and doesn't make it to the final, but again, its not the end of the World. The ladies field for example is so deep these days that there are probably 12 girls you could name that "deserve" to be in the final, but half of them won't make it. But thats just part of the high stakes and drama of the GP season.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing 12 of the top skaters compete in one competition, especially one that doesn't have "per country" limits like the GPF (which I think is one of the only competitions where you can see 4+ skaters from one country). Imagine seeing the 4A, Medvedeva, Tuktamysheva, Rika, Satoko, Kaori, Young, Bradie, and Mariah all in one event. That would be an amazing competition, maybe even more amazing than Worlds.
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DSQ · Nov 17, 2019

The biggest issue with the GP is so many skaters, including seeded ones, withdraw that it causes lopsided fields.

I’d argue that if there were no withdrawals this year each event would have been killer.

They should change the rules about the replacement of withdrawn skaters so the most competitive alternative skater gets the vacated spot.

CaroLiza_fan · Nov 17, 2019

Mathman said:
For suggestion #1 (following the football or baseball model, and expanding to eight teams), the reason that works out so nice in those sports is that 8 is a power of 2, so you can match up the teams 2x2 and it all works out to a single winner.

Ah, another believer in the 1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128-256 sequence.

I don't know if you remember, but quite a few years ago I was suggesting reforms to the GP Series, and everything I was suggesting was based around the magic number 8 (sorry to Bob Dorough, but your magic number 3 won't cut it here)

Senior Grand Prix Series

8 Senior Grands Prix.
Each category has 16 slots at each Senior GP (so each category has 128 slots in total).
Each skater / partnership gets 2 slots (so 64 skaters / partnerships get to take part).
The first 64 skaters / partnerships in the World Standings at the end of the previous season who are competing in Seniors in the new season get invited to the Senior GP Series.
Each event nominates a couple of local wildcards for each category to be on standby in case there are last minute withdrawals.
Each Warm-Up Group contains 4 skaters / partnerships.
There is a resurfacing after every 8 skaters / partnerships (i.e. after every 2 groups).
Start order in the Free Skate is the reverse of the results of the Short Programme.

When I last suggested this, I included having a knockout system whereby the bottom 4 skaters / partnerships in the SP do not progress to the FS. And that in the place of a fourth group, we could have the interviews and podium ceremony done straight after the conclusion of Group 3.

But, on reflection, I feel this would be a bit harsh, and that all the skaters / partnerships should do both segments. Give the spectators their money's worth. But still have the interviews and podium ceremony being held between the conclusion of the competition and the resurfacing before the next segment.

Junior Grand Prix Series

8 Junior Grands Prix.
Each category has 32 slots at each Junior GP (so each category has 256 slots in total).

I don't actually understand how the allocation of slots in the Junior GP Series is done. So, I will not go any further into suggesting how slots are allocated. All I will say is that hopefully having 256 slots would enable all the skaters that are likely to be competing for the top places to have 2 slots each.

Each Warm-Up Group contains 4 skaters / partnerships.
There is a resurfacing after every 8 skaters / partnerships (i.e. after every 2 groups).
Start order in the Free Skate is the reverse of the results of the Short Programme.

Again, when I last suggested this, I included having a knockout system whereby the bottom 8 skaters / partnerships in the SP do not progress to the FS. And that we could have the interviews and podium ceremony done straight after the conclusion of Group 6.

Unlike with the Senior GP Series, I do still think that this would have it's merits for the Junior GP Series. Because, otherwise, it is going to make the Free Skate segments VERY long and drawn out for the officials, spectators, and viewers at home.

Grand Prix Final (Junior and Senior)

Each category has 8 slots at the Grand Prix Final.
Each Warm-Up Group contains 4 skaters / partnerships.
Start order in the Free Skate is the reverse of the results of the Short Programme.

Mathman said:
But no matter how many entries are allowed, there will always be someone who is the best of the skaters who don't make the cut and are left out "unfairly." If we invite twelve skaters, that 13th guy is going to be disappointed, and so are his fans.

That is always the downside of every competition.

CaroLiza_fan

MintGreen · Nov 17, 2019

My issues with the current format is not necessarily about only 6 skaters/pairs/teams that can qualify for final. My issue is that a lot of often the 6 skaters will qualify are not among the best. I think a lot of the problems is that some skaters have not adjusted to the best conditions at the first half of the season. Boyang, for example, always did relatively poorly during GP and peaked at 4cc and wc. Same for Vincent and Kolyada last year.

lusterfan · Nov 17, 2019

I think the +2 wild card spots is a good idea to help top skaters who were assigned harder assignments a chance to still qualify off of merit (i.e. highest total score among non-qualifiers). Just looking at the GP standings now, it hurts to see skaters/pairs with very high score totals (even above skaters who qualified ahead of them in GP placement points) not be able to qualify just because of luck of assignment. Wild card spots will balance out this parity.

I think the 6 spots was chosen because it's easy to have only one practice group + it's a legacy decision carried from times when skating was perhaps not as crazily competitive as it is today. It made sense in the past, but things may need to change as times progress. Perhaps this could be up for discussion now that these Grand Prix's are becoming quite competitive (and I only see it continuing in an upward trend).

I'm not too keen on allowing whoever places first in one event automatically qualify, as the two grand prix entries makes sure the skater proves to be reasonably consistent. In the example of Boyang (5+15), he was far from great at his first assignment, and it just wouldn't be that fair for him to qualify in lieu of that. Grand Prix at least to some extent rewards consistency and merit.

Coryocris · Nov 17, 2019

I would also implement a rule to "fix" encounters. This year we've seen how the Russian girls got paired together and that created an unfair situation. I wouldn't allow to have the same pairing twice, for example if one was Liza/Anna, the other one should be Liza/Sasha or Liza/Alina or Anna/Zhenya or whatever, just change the pairing.

Mathman · Nov 17, 2019

CaroLiza_fan said:
Each event nominates a couple of local wildcards for each category to be on standby in case there are last minute withdrawals.

Alissa Czisny burst on the scene in just such a role in 2004 and 2005. In 2004 Michelle Kwan withdrew late from Skate America in Pittsburgh and they grabbed Czisny from nearby Ohio to fill in. The next year, IIRC she substituted for Cynthia Phaneuf at Skate Canada -- and won!

lusterfan said:
I'm not too keen on allowing whoever places first in one event automatically qualify, as the two grand prix entries makes sure the skater proves to be reasonably consistent. In the example of Boyang (5+15) ...

In 2002 Michelle Kwan won Skate America and did not have a second event. She earned 15 points for her 1st place and this turned out to be enough to qualify for the Finals. (She declined, however.)

In those days the points were different, having a wider differential between first and second, for instance. Plus, it was a a somewhat chaotic season anyway. Shizuka Arakawa qualified for the final with a 3rd and a 5th.

ruga · Nov 17, 2019

I wish there were 12 finalists for singles, 10 for dance and 8 for pairs. The GPF could be like a 'big' grand prix stage. 6 skaters per discipline doesn't make it seem like it's an important competition. Besides, think what fabulous lineup we would have this year in ladies for example: 4A, Rika, Bradie, Satoko, Mariah, Zhenya, Liza...

MaiKatze · Nov 17, 2019

Ella5555 said:
Just pondering if the process for selecting skaters for the Grand Prix Final should be changed: For the current season (like prior seasons), some good skaters will not make the finals that may be deserving (e.g., Boyang Jin won Cup of China while Mariah Bell had two good skates while winning bronze medals at SA and IdF, but both are unlikely to make the finals).

No. Those who made it are deserving and those who didn't simply weren't good enough, no matter how much one personally likes them. Of course, luck of the draw does play a part. But generally it evens out, because of the Worlds result in the season before. I also don't think there should be much more than 6 entries in the disciplines. It is something special to make the GPF and you have to bring top results over two competitions. If you messed up in one GP, bad luck, your problem. It's a privilege to go there and not a given, no matter how good you are at one single competition. And I say that as someone who would love to see Boyang or Mariah at the GPF, and would exchange them with skaters who made it immediately.

DenissVFan · Nov 17, 2019

As far as I remember, Ted Barton said that expanding the GPF is rather impossible.

Jaana · Nov 17, 2019

I like the system the way it is now. Of course it is not fair to everyone as the GP events can be rather uneven, but it seems to be that it is rather impossible to have a system fair to everyone. Besides, always somebody' s favourite gets left out...

Of course it may be that all 6 skaters at the GPF are not the best skaters, but most of them are, IMO. Anyway, they are the skaters that qualified.

Edwin · Nov 17, 2019

Are there any movements within ISU to reform the GP concept, that we publicly know of?

The GP circuit seems an expensive feature, I assume the junior GP is a financial loss. Have to look over at ISU's website for the financial accounts again.

CaroLiza_fan · Nov 17, 2019

Mathman said:
Alissa Czisny burst on the scene in just such a role in 2004 and 2005. In 2004 Michelle Kwan withdrew late from Skate America in Pittsburgh and they grabbed Czisny from nearby Ohio to fill in. The next year, IIRC she substituted for Cynthia Phaneuf at Skate Canada -- and won!

That was very interesting. Thank you for adding Alissa's story in for those of us who were unfamiliar with her early career. :thank:

It's a pity that GP organisers don't seem willing to do that any more, and instead just leave the slots unfilled. Because, as this story showed, calling up local skaters to fill empty slots can do wonders for their career. Without this unexpected opportunity, Alissa's career would probably have been very different.

OK, so it would only be once in a blue moon that a wildcard would ever need to be called upon. But, if they don't get used in the competitions, they can always be used to fill the guest slots at the Gala. So, they wouldn't be completely missing out on the opportunity to showcase themselves.

It's a win-win situation for everybody. So, I just don't understand why it doesn't happen any more.

CaroLiza_fan

rollerblade · Nov 17, 2019

Don't skaters used to go up to 3 GPs, if they chose to compete in a 3rd, and only used the placements of 2 events to determine who goes to the GPF?

Changing Process for Qualifying to GPF

Ella5555

rain

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

Mathman

Mathman

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA

Happy Skates

DSQ

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA

MintGreen

lusterfan

Coryocris

Praise our Little Bear

Mathman

ruga

MaiKatze

DenissVFan

Jaana

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA

rollerblade

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