Is Aliona Kostornaia the next WC? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Is Aliona Kostornaia the next WC?

composer

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Sigh are we setting up the narrative of athletic Sasha vs artistic Aliona already? Let’s just say neither of them are the complete package, which is great, because that means we get to see both of develop further, and isn’t that awesome given how amazing they both are already?
Of course the amount of hardware available is limited and my personal bias is I’d like everyone to get a medal unfortunately I don’t run the ISU or there would be a World Championships every month.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Sigh are we setting up the narrative of athletic Sasha vs artistic Aliona already? Let’s just say neither of them are the complete package, which is great, because that means we get to see both of develop further, and isn’t that awesome given how amazing they both are already?
Of course the amount of hardware available is limited and my personal bias is I’d like everyone to get a medal unfortunately I don’t run the ISU or there would be a World Championships every month.

I'm not setting up anything. Just pointing out the artists vs athletes thing has been a part of skating for a long time and probably always will be
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I wouldn't worded it like that though. If she jumped higher and rotated her triples properly - she couldn't conserve enough energy to invest it in a choreo to the same degree as now. She is able to be so consistent and artistic exactly because she is cheating on almost every jump she is doing - otherwise her stamina would ended much sooner and she would ended either fallng many times or simplifying/dropping her choreo significantly. Moreover, if she would be able to jumps quads - her choreo would be similar to Trusova's at best - if not much simpler ;)
That's the thing - the more difficult content you are presenting - the more strength you need to have to be artistic as well. You can even say that Satoko's qualities are making her not fit to figure skating. She would be more comfortable in ice dance discipline - however her height is not enough to make impression on judges - and height matters in ice dance (preferably partners should be of the same height and tall enough). Single figure skating discipline requires to be quite athletic in addition to artistry - and that is what she lacks. Therefore you can't call her "balanced skater" unfortunately. From that point of view it's quite hypocritical to criticize Trusova for lack of choreo similar to ladies jumping triples - while being lenient in assessing mens choreo - "they jump quads after all!" :palmf: :rolleye:
That said, Kostornaia IS able to combine difficult rotated jumps, complex choreo, steps, spins and keeping high level of performance. She is strong enough physically as well as artistic. So you can call her "balanced skater" or "ideally fit to figure skating". So it's not something that is not possible. And as Kostornaia lagged behind others some time in learning difficult, energy-consuming jumps - Trusova could develop her other qualities as well. Time will tell.

I agree with this partially. Satoko has a natural musicality and artistic ability that makes it "easy" for her to perform that way. Perhaps more focus on her jumps would dilute that somewhat but I don't think it would be that much.

Satoko is not what I would consider representative of a balanced skater though.

She is objectively the exact opposite of Trusova.

The issue is what different people prefer to watch.

But if we made it so that an artistic skater like Satoko could "win more" despite others having a huge technical advantage over her then that would be incredibly unfair too.

Even if the scoring becomes more balanced, the tech advantage is probably still to great to overcome.

Sasha with quads, a possible 3A and her steadily improving non jump skills is a force to be reckoned with no matter what.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Sasha is not devoid of non jump skills and continues to improve on them as well as her jumps.
Sasha got 66PCS at home... not ridiculous in the slightest.
You want ridiculous check out Zagitova's 35PCS SP at NHK, around the same as a pristine glorious Alyona.

Personally I wonder what age has to do with anything?

Alyona is 16 and has considerable "maturity" already.

Sasha doesn't skate immaturely, she skates more like the men do.

We're not going to agree on this, but suffice it to say that Trusova can't even do crossovers. Zagitova's PCS is ludicrous. It has been for two years. This certainly doesn't make Trusova's any more palatable.

The young teens are young teens and they skate like it. Some have more (Kostornaia) artistry and some have almost none (Trusova). But they are not mature performers.

And to the person who thinks this is sexism — what total nonsense! I'm the poster who argued last season that it was a great thing that male jumping bean Stephen Gogolev shouldn't be Canadian national champion (thankfully, it didn't happen).
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
We're not going to agree on this, but suffice it to say that Trusova can't even do crossovers. Zagitova's PCS is ludicrous. It has been for two years. This certainly doesn't make Trusova's any more palatable.

The young teens are young teens and they skate like it. Some have more (Kostornaia) artistry and some have almost none (Trusova). But they are not mature performers.

And to the person who thinks this is sexism — what total nonsense! I'm the poster who argued last season that it was a great thing that male jumping bean Stephen Gogolev shouldn't be Canadian national champion (thankfully, it didn't happen).

Sasha can't even do crossovers? That is a ridiculous statement, I'm impressed she can gain speed and momentum with so few of them, she sets up her quads without excessive "pumping" but to say she cant do them is...ugh

You can prefer older more "mature" skaters if you like but your comment comes across as mean, extremely biased and selfish with being thankful someone you call a "jumping bean" failed to win.
 

ec00834

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
We're not going to agree on this, but suffice it to say that Trusova can't even do crossovers. Zagitova's PCS is ludicrous. It has been for two years. This certainly doesn't make Trusova's any more palatable.

The young teens are young teens and they skate like it. Some have more (Kostornaia) artistry and some have almost none (Trusova). But they are not mature performers.

And to the person who thinks this is sexism — what total nonsense! I'm the poster who argued last season that it was a great thing that male jumping bean Stephen Gogolev shouldn't be Canadian national champion (thankfully, it didn't happen).

Must've watched too much TSL to think Sasha and Alina can't do crossovers.
 

lzxnl

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Must've watched too much TSL to think Sasha and Alina can't do crossovers.

Alina IS hunched over in her crossovers, but somehow I feel she's improved on that a bit this season. Maybe it's her program. Maybe she really has worked on it.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Sasha can't even do crossovers? That is a ridiculous statement, I'm impressed she can gain speed and momentum with so few of them, she sets up her quads without excessive "pumping" but to say she cant do them is...ugh

You can prefer older more "mature" skaters if you like but your comment comes across as mean, extremely biased and selfish with being thankful someone you call a "jumping bean" failed to win.

I really don't want to put you on my ignore list, because I enjoy a lot of your posts, but if you continue to be personally insulting, when I'm talking about skating, then I'm going to have no choice.

Alina IS hunched over in her crossovers, but somehow I feel she's improved on that a bit this season. Maybe it's her program. Maybe she really has worked on it.

Yes. Her posture is bad. And the issue with Trusova is that her posture isn't great either and she doesn't pick up her feet. I'm really not even sure how to respond to those who don't think she needs to work on her basic skating skills. We are watching two different things.
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Alina IS hunched over in her crossovers, but somehow I feel she's improved on that a bit this season. Maybe it's her program. Maybe she really has worked on it.

I thought I saw a lot of improvement at Russian test skates. I was incredibly impressed by her improvement in flow and the SP. It was first time that I enjoyed one of her programs. Since then, (perhaps due to nerves) her performance in the SP hasn't really impressed me but the flow/ crossovers are a bit better. Her PCS scores are far to high for what she is putting on the ice, but she is Olympic Champion and all World/ Olympic champions get a boost. It's not good judging , but we all know it happens.

Hopefully, Anna and Sasha also try to improve their basic skating. ( as Alina and Med have recently done)
 

apgold

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Country
United-States
To answer the OP question - I certainly hope so. I think the judges are behind Alyona and I think the GPF will answer some questions.
 

Mishaminion

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
I really don't want to put you on my ignore list, because I enjoy a lot of your posts, but if you continue to be personally insulting, when I'm talking about skating, then I'm going to have no choice.



Yes. Her posture is bad. And the issue with Trusova is that her posture isn't great either and she doesn't pick up her feet. I'm really not even sure how to respond to those who don't think she needs to work on her basic skating skills. We are watching two different things.

First of all I was not insulting you personally but reacting to your aggressively negative opinion.

You obviously do not like these younger girls/skaters in general.

Nobody said Sasha does not need to improve, of course she could be better but sometimes feel people trash her non jump skills way too much, they really are not that bad.

As for Alina's posture, I've never liked that hunched over position and I dislike it even more with her current programs where she seems to bend/lean foward in the choreography and draw even more attention to it.
Other than that she has improved a little though in general SS.
Just wish she would polish up her posture.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
As for Alina's posture, I've never liked that hunched over position and I dislike it even more with her current programs where she seems to bend/lean foward in the choreography and draw even more attention to it.
Other than that she has improved a little though in general SS.
Just wish she would polish up her posture.

You called me mean, biased and selfish because there are things I don't like about some skaters' (IMO) poor technique. But anyway, at least we can agree on Alina's posture!:) I would think this would be a relatively simple fix that would pay big dividends.
 

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Why is it that most people seem to think jumping is more athletic than skating gracefully with correct technique? Does that mean a high jumper is a better athlete than a gymnast doing a floor exercise. Today Irina Slutskaya would be considered better than Michelle Kwan, yet you would have to be blind to say Irina was a better skater.
 
E

eterialskater

Guest
I wouldn't worded it like that though. If she jumped higher and rotated her triples properly - she couldn't conserve enough energy to invest it in a choreo to the same degree as now. She is able to be so consistent and artistic exactly because she is cheating on almost every jump she is doing - otherwise her stamina would ended much sooner and she would ended either fallng many times or simplifying/dropping her choreo significantly. Moreover, if she would be able to jumps quads - her choreo would be similar to Trusova's at best - if not much simpler ;) From that point of view it's quite hypocritical to criticize Trusova for lack of choreo similar to ladies jumping triples - while being lenient in assessing mens choreo - "they jump quads after all!" :palmf: :rolleye:
That's the thing - the more difficult content you are presenting - the more strength you need to have to be artistic as well. You can even say that Satoko's qualities are making her not fit to figure skating (it's similar to watching short baskeball player or skinny sumo wrestler - they can be very good in what they are doing, but.. there is always ceiling in what they can achieve in their type of sport). She would be more comfortable in ice dance discipline - however her height is not enough to make impression on judges - and height matters in ice dance (preferably partners should be of the same height and tall enough). Single figure skating discipline requires to be quite athletic in addition to artistry - and that is what she lacks. Therefore you can't call her "balanced skater" unfortunately.
That said, Kostornaia IS able to combine difficult rotated jumps, complex choreo, steps, spins and keeping high level of performance. She is strong enough physically as well as artistic. So you can call her "balanced skater" or "ideally fit to figure skating". So it's not something that is not possible. And as Kostornaia lagged behind others some time in learning difficult, energy-consuming jumps - Trusova could develop her other qualities as long as she start to be so comfortable with quads that she could conserve enough energy for choreo tricks as well. Time will tell.

An excellent assessment and one that should be read over and over.
 
E

eterialskater

Guest
Sure, now its 2019 and in ladies field you don’t even need to do crossovers properly and you can be a world champ [emoji1303]

Well that's because these ladies don't do crossovers that much so I guess they will not be as good as those who spend their time between elements doing them:).
 

Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
In response to the question at the top, my guess is, "No." But her odds are better than most.
 
E

eterialskater

Guest
We're not going to agree on this, but suffice it to say that Trusova can't even do crossovers. Zagitova's PCS is ludicrous. It has been for two years. This certainly doesn't make Trusova's any more palatable.

The young teens are young teens and they skate like it. Some have more (Kostornaia) artistry and some have almost none (Trusova). But they are not mature performers.

And to the person who thinks this is sexism — what total nonsense! I'm the poster who argued last season that it was a great thing that male jumping bean Stephen Gogolev shouldn't be Canadian national champion (thankfully, it didn't happen).

Trusova holds her edges very well no thank you. Is this some new byline here I am not aware of.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
My opinion: Alena is wonderful, but I don't see how anyone is going to beat Alexandra Trusova this year.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I wouldn't worded it like that though. If she jumped higher and rotated her triples properly - she couldn't conserve enough energy to invest it in a choreo to the same degree as now. She is able to be so consistent and artistic exactly because she is cheating on almost every jump she is doing - otherwise her stamina would ended much sooner and she would ended either fallng many times or simplifying/dropping her choreo significantly. Moreover, if she would be able to jumps quads - her choreo would be similar to Trusova's at best - if not much simpler ;) From that point of view it's quite hypocritical to criticize Trusova for lack of choreo similar to ladies jumping triples - while being lenient in assessing mens choreo - "they jump quads after all!" :palmf: :rolleye:
That's the thing - the more difficult content you are presenting - the more strength you need to have to be artistic as well. You can even say that Satoko's qualities are making her not fit to figure skating (it's similar to watching short baskeball player or skinny sumo wrestler - they can be very good in what they are doing, but.. there is always ceiling in what they can achieve in their type of sport). She would be more comfortable in ice dance discipline - however her height is not enough to make impression on judges - and height matters in ice dance (preferably partners should be of the same height and tall enough). Single figure skating discipline requires to be quite athletic in addition to artistry - and that is what she lacks. Therefore you can't call her "balanced skater" unfortunately.
That said, Kostornaia IS able to combine difficult rotated jumps, complex choreo, steps, spins and keeping high level of performance. She is strong enough physically as well as artistic. So you can call her "balanced skater" or "ideally fit to figure skating". So it's not something that is not possible. And as Kostornaia lagged behind others some time in learning difficult, energy-consuming jumps - Trusova could develop her other qualities as long as she start to be so comfortable with quads that she could conserve enough energy for choreo tricks as well. Time will tell.

This is a weird analogy though... there have been excellent short NBA players and terrible tall NBA players. The biggest sumo wrestler isn't necessarily the most nimble or the strongest.

Satoko's size is small, but there is a neatness and a finesse to her skating that a larger skater just would not possess.

I don't get the height aspect either... Miyahara is 4'10"; Kostornaia is 4'11". Midori Ito is 4'9" and jumped bigger than either of them. Miyahara just isn't a naturally high jumper, but she gets the job done (has a couple GPF/World medals and 4 straight Japanese titles to show for it).

As far as height mattering in ice dance, that's not always the case either ... look at Guignard/Fabbri who are pretty successful in spite of her being 5'2 and him being 5'5 (and even still, he looks more slight than her).
 
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