Quad Axel

fallingsk8er · Dec 19, 2019

My guess is that the skater who will land the first 6 (distinct) quad program with the Quad Axel is probably just starting to compete in juniors and will not be an “elite” skater for several years. This current crop of men will be ‘washed-up’ by then.

ranran · Dec 19, 2019

It seems this thread has turned into a chance for fans to discuss why Nathan is superior than Yuzuru rather than a discussion on the 4A itself. I think I saw multiple thread on "Nathan VS Hanyu" so maybe those discussion can go there.

waltzjump2 · Dec 19, 2019

ranran said:
It seems this thread has turned into a chance for fans to discuss why Nathan is superior than Yuzuru rather than a discussion on the 4A itself. I think I saw multiple thread on "Nathan VS Hanyu" so maybe those discussion can go there.

Yeah. I’ll ad something in the original post

chanchan · Dec 19, 2019

Mikhail Kolyada has the height and rotation speed to do a 4A.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 20, 2019

eaglehelang said:
1) Huh? If by 'people' you mean Hanyu fans, most certainly we were concerned about safety. That's why he needs a coach with him.-> But even this comment gets ridiculed by certain other fans.

2) Hanyu didnt attempt the 4As for the sake pleasing the fans, far from it, obviously. Lol.
He wasnt knew he wasnt going to win the GPF anyways, so decided to try it & see its readiness in competition setting.

But it wasn’t in a competition setting... it was a practice. Although ironically, even a 4A< fall or 4A<< fall would have gotten more points than his GPF FS single axel.

How did he know he wasn’t going to win? Yes, the scoring gap after the SP was 13 points. But up until that point Chen's season's best FS was 196.38 and Hanyus was 212.99 (a difference of more than 16 points).

If Chen repeated that his final score would have been 306.76 — and had Hanyu replicated his Skate Canada FS he would have gotten 310.42 overall.

Harriet · Dec 20, 2019

chanchan said:
Mikhail Kolyada has the height and rotation speed to do a 4A.

Adam Siao Him Fa apparently thought he did, too, and wrecked his ankle right before the start of the season trying one. In the risk-reward tradeoff, the risk on this one to date far outweighs the entirely theoretical reward.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 20, 2019

Harriet said:
Adam Siao Him Fa apparently thought he did, too, and wrecked his ankle right before the start of the season trying one. In the risk-reward tradeoff, the risk on this one to date far outweighs the entirely theoretical reward.

Oh I didn't know he was trying a 4A too. He did a 4Z earlier this season which was pretty amazing!

Sugar Coated · Dec 20, 2019

Did Hanyu keep both of his programs from last year? I remember being surprised by this when I was watching him skate his GP events since he should absolutely have the resources for new programs and this year wasn’t particularly important for keeping his old programs. Is it because he missed much of the season last year? Because my other thought was that he really isn’t focusing on the programs right now and only wants to focus on landing 4A. I could definitely see him retiring after he lands it and I suspect he will be able to land it at some point.

khtmyzr · Dec 20, 2019

Sugar Coated said:
Did Hanyu keep both of his programs from last year? I remember being surprised by this when I was watching him skate his GP events since he should absolutely have the resources for new programs and this year wasn’t particularly important for keeping his old programs. Is it because he missed much of the season last year? Because my other thought was that he really isn’t focusing on the programs right now and only wants to focus on landing 4A. I could definitely see him retiring after he lands it and I suspect he will be able to land it at some point.

If my memory serves me right, I think he said something like Origin deserves a clean performance as it is a Plushenko tribute. My impression is that he will keep it until he is satisfied with the content and performance and I guess Otonal comes as a set with Origin so... If the 4A is part of his Origin dream layout plan and he isn’t able to incorporate it this season, I guess we may see both for another season? :laugh:

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 20, 2019

khtmyzr said:
If my memory serves me right, I think he said something like Origin deserves a clean performance as it is a Plushenko tribute. My impression is that he will keep it until he is satisfied with the content and performance and I guess Otonal comes as a set with Origin so... If the 4A is part of his Origin dream layout plan and he isn’t able to incorporate it this season, I guess we may see both for another season?

Okay. Should every Scheherezade tribute also deserve a clean performance because Lysacek won the Olympics with a clean performance of it? And that was with 3As instead of a 4A.

khtmyzr · Dec 20, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Okay. Should every Scheherezade tribute also deserve a clean performance because Lysacek won the Olympics with a clean performance of it? And that was with 3As instead of a 4A.

Not sure what he really said exactly though. This is just the impression that remains in my head about what he said before.
I don’t think it means all Plushenko tributes have to be clean, to me, it just simply means that was what his original goal to skate the tributes clean with the contents he would like to put in (he pretty much achieved that with Otonal but has yet to so that with Origin).

Casual · Dec 21, 2019

I don't know what he's focused on this season, but to my eyes, his performances (before the injury) last season looked much more "free" and floating, somehow.

I love these two programs, and I'm glad he kept them, but this season some previous magic is missing, IMHO. I can't quite put my finger why.

As for 4A, I'd prefer he keeps skating for a long-long time vs. seeing a 4A. If I never see a 4A at all, from anyone, that's okay. But if (when) Hanyu stops skating, I'll be sad.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 22, 2019

I wonder if Hanyu will continue pursuing the 4A for Worlds after his Nationals skates... even without a 4A attempt (or 4Z attempt), he made so many errors including a 3A< fall. Chalk it up to a bad day but he came 3rd (arguably should have been 4th) in the FS and lost to Uno who wasn’t even at full strength. I think for this season he’d be better off focusing on clean programs, and put the 4A on hold, to have even a shot against Chen. If his priority is landing the jump then go for it... but training it is evidently compromising the rest of his free program and gold medal hopes.

Arbitrary · Dec 22, 2019

I'm afraid even landing 4A once means not much till it will be landed at least 50% success rate with.
And this is a matter of few years.

champagnerain · Dec 22, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I wonder if Hanyu will continue pursuing the 4A for Worlds after his Nationals skates... even without a 4A attempt (or 4Z attempt), he made so many errors including a 3A< fall. Chalk it up to a bad day but he came 3rd (arguably should have been 4th) in the FS and lost to Uno who wasn’t even at full strength. I think for this season he’d be better off focusing on clean programs, and put the 4A on hold, to have even a shot against Chen. If his priority is landing the jump then go for it... but training it is evidently compromising the rest of his free program and gold medal hopes.

I don't think that you're wrong that training the 4A is probably detrimental to his other jumps and his programs as a whole, but AFAIR he said he hasn't been training the 4A recently because he was focusing on the GPF. Those kamikaze coachless 4A attempts at GPF practice were ill-advised, I'd say - even more so if he hadn't been training the jump much at all recently - and they definitely seem to have done their share to tire him out. That said, he did just compete in Japan, then two weeks later in Italy, then two weeks later in Japan again, presumably flying back to Toronto in between (although I don't keep track of his full schedule). He arrived in Japan around an hour before the SP draw and (again, AFAIR) missed the first public practice session. He was making jokes at the GPF press conference about being "so much older" than Nathan - and though he's "only" 25, he's also not skated a full GP season + Japanese Nats in several years. He has lots of reasons to be exhausted right now that have less to do with training the 4A and more to do with the fact that he's changed time zones and travelled a bunch of times in the space of six weeks after coming off of two seasons with serious injuries.

discode · Dec 22, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I wonder if Hanyu will continue pursuing the 4A for Worlds after his Nationals skates... even without a 4A attempt (or 4Z attempt), he made so many errors including a 3A< fall. Chalk it up to a bad day but he came 3rd (arguably should have been 4th) in the FS and lost to Uno who wasn’t even at full strength. I think for this season he’d be better off focusing on clean programs, and put the 4A on hold, to have even a shot against Chen. If his priority is landing the jump then go for it... but training it is evidently compromising the rest of his free program and gold medal hopes.

He will continue :con3:

about his 4A
Yuzu "as much as I know that it's more efficient to jump two 4Lz in terms of points, but I need a "powerful weapon." My skating is centered around this right now and I think 4CC would be a step that would help me in the challenge"

https://twitter.com/0409_Obi/status/1208753158937202690?s=19

drivingmissdaisy · Dec 22, 2019

discode said:
Yuzu "as much as I know that it's more efficient to jump two 4Lz in terms of points, but I need a "powerful weapon." My skating is centered around this right now and I think 4CC would be a step that would help me in the challenge"

No he doesn't. He earns the best PCS in the world when he skates well. He has the best 3A in the world. He gets great GOE on his elements. He can do a 5 quad LP, but needs more time to train so he can finish such a program strong. At his age, and given the injuries he's had to overcome, he should be doing fewer run-throughs and just maintain the jumps he can already do.

Mishaminion · Dec 22, 2019

drivingmissdaisy said:
No he doesn't. He earns the best PCS in the world when he skates well. He has the best 3A in the world. He gets great GOE on his elements. He can do a 5 quad LP, but needs more time to train so he can finish such a program strong. At his age, and given the injuries he's had to overcome, he should be doing fewer run-throughs and just maintain the jumps he can already do.

A lot of fans interpret that kind of comment as him saying he can only win with risky super-elements because of "unfair judging"
I disagree with that but feel it is more like Yuzu will do anything to ensure victory.

A kind of go big or go home mentality.

eaglehelang · Dec 22, 2019

khtmyzr said:
If my memory serves me right, I think he said something like Origin deserves a clean performance as it is a Plushenko tribute. My impression is that he will keep it until he is satisfied with the content and performance and I guess Otonal comes as a set with Origin so...
If the 4A is part of his Origin dream layout plan and he isn’t able to incorporate it this season, I guess we may see both for another season?

In one of the Japanese documentaries, they show Yuzuru's planned layout for Origin. For 2018/19 season. It had 4A in it. And 4Loop/4Lutz, meaning incorporate one I think. Also the 4T+3A.

As we know, he got injured during Rostelecom 2018 & that plan was delayed. He's got the 4Lutz, 4 Loop back.
Just left the 4A.
But if Yuzuru is not successful landing 4A this season, dont think he'll keep Origin for 3rd season. He skated it clean at Skate Canada.

eaglehelang · Dec 22, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
But it wasn’t in a competition setting... it was a practice. Although ironically, even a 4A< fall or 4A<< fall would have gotten more points than his GPF FS single axel.

How did he know he wasn’t going to win? Yes, the scoring gap after the SP was 13 points. But up until that point Chen's season's best FS was 196.38 and Hanyus was 212.99 (a difference of more than 16 points).

If Chen repeated that his final score would have been 306.76 — and had Hanyu replicated his Skate Canada FS he would have gotten 310.42 overall.

Yuzuru said so himself, in more than 1 interview, after GPF. He knew Nathan was going to do 5 quad LP at GPF & did the calculations. And felt he wouldnt win anyway with the 13 pt gap from SP. This I agree.

Wasnt Nathan LP score at GPF 225? 225 vs 212 . Even if Yuzuru did a clean 5 quad LP, with an avg +3 GOE on his jumps, his score would only be ard 222.
I not that good in maths also I can make the calculations, what more Yuzuru.

You know very well Nathan did not jump 5 quads in both his GPs.

'Competition setting' as in competition ice. GPF was the 1st time he's shown the 4A in public.

Quad Axel

fallingsk8er

ranran

Zamboni time

waltzjump2

chanchan

CanadianSkaterGuy

Harriet

CanadianSkaterGuy

Sugar Coated

khtmyzr

CanadianSkaterGuy

khtmyzr

Casual

CanadianSkaterGuy

Arbitrary

champagnerain

discode

drivingmissdaisy

Mishaminion

eaglehelang

eaglehelang

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