4 Continents...

Doggygirl · Jan 26, 2005

Unless I'm missing something, (and if I am, please point me in the right direction) I don't see a main topic under the 2004 - 2005 Season section under "events" for the 4 Continents competition. I've never paid much attention to it before, but isn't that comp sort of *intended* to be like the European Championships are for much (or all) of the rest of the world?

I realize that many elite skaters don't go, which is a main reason I haven't paid much attention before. But I'm hoping to follow it a little more closely this year, especially in the hopes of learning more about up and comers who do compete.

Let me know if I just *missed* where that section is, or if it could be added under Events.

Thanks,
DG

BravesSkateFan · Jan 26, 2005

Yes 4CC is the equivalent of the European championships. Most US skaters don't view it that way which is why I think it doesn't get the hype that the other events do. I think its because the US (unless there are extenuating circumstances) uses only the results of Nationals to name its World team while most other countries use a combination of Nationals and 4CC to determine the team. I would think that it is more popular in countries like Japan where its used to help determine the world team.

chuckm · Jan 26, 2005

Canada usually sends its top skaters to 4CC also.

One of the reasons why the USFS doesn't encourage its top skaters to go to 4CC is that the US is pretty deep in talent as far as the Singles skaters are concerned. Skaters who aren't going to Worlds can earn ISU points by competing in 4CC, and increase their chances of being invited to Grand Prix events.

Skaters who go to Worlds and 4CC can count the ISU points for only one of those competitions, and Worlds gives more points. (1st place at Worlds:1200 points vs. 4CC 840 points).

However, the US does send its top Pairs and Ice Dancers to 4CC. A team that finishes 14th at Worlds gets only 550 points, but that same team might finish 5th at 4CC and earn 700 points.

hockeyfan228 · Jan 26, 2005

Technically, only the top skater at US Nationals is guaranteed a spot at Worlds. From frogsonice.com, Sandra Loosemore's site,

In theory, the selection committee is permitted to deviate from the consecutive order of finish, but in practice about the only time they do so is when a top skater from the previous year is unable to compete at nationals due to injury. (There is actually a legal reason for the loophole in the selection procedure: if the national championships were considered "Olympic trials", the TV rights and revenues would belong to the US Olympic Committee rather than the USFSA.)

She gives her answer to your question in the FAQ that follows, the gist of which is, top singles are asked, but they turn down the invitations because they can make money and earn points (toward ranking for GP invitations) elsewhere, while the pairs and dance people have fewer opportunities to earn points and money [edited to add: so they skate an an inconvenient time of the year and often must travel to Asia to compete.]

In Europe, there are countries that specify that a skater cannot go to Worlds without a top X performance at Euros, or that if the skater doesn't achieve a top X ranking there, there is a skate-off. This happened in 2003, when none of the German skaters were high enough at Euros, and Lindemann lost a skate-off to Smalun and Vlascenko.

Doggygirl · Jan 26, 2005

Got the Gist...

That US singles in particular don't heavily participate, at least not with the big guns.

Does anyone know (regardless) if there is an existing 4CC Category under Events, or if one can be created? I definitely hope to follow it regardless of what the top US singles skaters decide to do. (well, I think we already know the answer to THAT one LOL!)

Thanks,
DG

BravesSkateFan · Jan 26, 2005

Technically, only the top skater at US Nationals is guaranteed a spot at Worlds. From frogsonice.com, Sandra Loosemore's site,

yes, I know that technically only the gold medallist is assured a spot, but there has never been an instance, at least in the last 25-30 years, where the USFS has sent anyone other than the medallists, (or runners up if there are age restrictions). Thats why I said that the US's world team is determined soley by Nationals results.

hockeyfan228 · Jan 26, 2005

BravesSkateFan said:
yes, I know that technically only the gold medallist is assured a spot, but there has never been an instance, at least in the last 25-30 years, where the USFS has sent anyone other than the medallists, (or runners up if there are age restrictions). Thats why I said that the US's world team is determined soley by Nationals results.

One threatened lawsuit by Tonya Harding, and the USFS doesn't use 4C's where the results from Nationals are very close.

A.H.Black · Jan 26, 2005

BravesSkateFan said:
yes, I know that technically only the gold medallist is assured a spot, but there has never been an instance, at least in the last 25-30 years, where the USFS has sent anyone other than the medallists, (or runners up if there are age restrictions). Thats why I said that the US's world team is determined soley by Nationals results.

Actually, you can't really go back quite that far. Before 1990, World medalists were invited back to the following Worlds by name . Thus, when medalists retired, the size of the World team went down by one spot. It always made the year after the Olympics a hard one. In 1990, Christopher Bowman pulled out of Nationals with an "injury". He was already on the World team, however, because he was a reigning World medalist. That summer the ISU changed the rule.

It is true that the U.S. almost always determines the World team in the manor you indicate, but there have been exceptions in the case of injury. Todd Eldredge (1992), Nancy Kerrigan (1994), and Meno and Sand (1998) are specific examples. Eldredge was the reigning World bronze medalist. Kerrigan had been World medalist, but not from the previous year. Meno and Sand were two time World medalists, from 1995 and 96 I believe.

So - you see - other things are taken into account other than just Nationals.

brad640 · Jan 26, 2005

I don't think "Four Continents" is the right name for this competition. Even though there are entries from South Africa and Australia, that doesn't mean that athletes from four continents are actually in competition for the medals.

Mathman · Jan 27, 2005

Well, I guess the idea is that it is for "everyone else" who can't go to Europeans. IIRC, people from other continents used to be allowed to go to Europeans. But they changed that after North American skaters Dick Button and Barbara Ann Scott became "European champions" in the late forties.

Then there was something called the Narth American championships, but since only two countries participated, it petered out, so they started up Four Continents. China and Japan, at least, do take the competition seriously, I think.

Doggygirl, about your original question -- hmm, I guess Four Continents doesn't get any respect even on Golden State, LOL. Maybe Paula will want to open a separate folder for it, but for now we will have to use the "2004-2005 F. S. Events folder for posts about Four Continents.

Mathman

gkelly · Jan 27, 2005

brad640 said:
I don't think "Four Continents" is the right name for this competition. Even though there are entries from South Africa and Australia, that doesn't mean that athletes from four continents are actually in competition for the medals.

But they are able to *compete* there. The name of the competition is not based only on the potential medalists.

Besides, Anthony Liu of Australia was 5th and 6th the first two years, which could probably be considered (unsuccessfully) "in competition for the medals."

STL_Blues_fan · Jan 27, 2005

Mathman said:
Well, I guess the idea is that it is for "everyone else" who can't go to Europeans. IIRC, people from other continents used to be allowed to go to Europeans. But they changed that after North American skaters Dick Button and Barbara Ann Scott became "European champions" in the late forties.

Mathman

I thought NA skaters were invited to Europeans only after WWII for a short time b/c naturally the European skaters didn't exactly have an opportunity to train during the horrors of the War. Once the European skating "recovered" NA skaters were no longer invited. For some countries it took even longer to recover.

Is it correct?

Yana

Doggygirl · Jan 27, 2005

Thanks Mathman...

Mathman said:
Well, I guess the idea is that it is for "everyone else" who can't go to Europeans. IIRC, people from other continents used to be allowed to go to Europeans. But they changed that after North American skaters Dick Button and Barbara Ann Scott became "European champions" in the late forties.

Then there was something called the Narth American championships, but since only two countries participated, it petered out, so they started up Four Continents. China and Japan, at least, do take the competition seriously, I think.

Doggygirl, about your original question -- hmm, I guess Four Continents doesn't get any respect even on Golden State, LOL. Maybe Paula will want to open a separate folder for it, but for now we will have to use the "2004-2005 F. S. Events folder for posts about Four Continents.

Mathman

Anyone know the dates offhand? I think it will be VERY interesting to follow the Japanese ladies. IIRC, they are holding off on determining some World team spots until after this event, right?

DG

Arsenette · Jan 28, 2005

Doggygirl said:
Anyone know the dates offhand? I think it will be VERY interesting to follow the Japanese ladies. IIRC, they are holding off on determining some World team spots until after this event, right?

DG

I have it listed as February 14-20, 2005 - 2005 Four Continents Championships in Gangneung, Republic of Korea

As best I can I try updating our Competition Calendar with the current competitions, etc.

Mathman · Jan 28, 2005

Hi Blues Fan, I didn't know that about World War II. That's very interesting. I suppose that in the actual war years they didn't hold the competiton at all.

The way some people have refered to this history puts the ISU organizers of the event in a bad light, like they are saying that the Europeans were afraid that American skaters would take them over or something.

Doggygirl, I think the situation of the Japanese ladies (ks77 posted about this on another thread) is that Miki Ando :love:

is going to Worlds as Japanese champion ( I predict a Worlds medal for her

), Shizuka Arakawa is going as defending World Champion, and the third spot will be decided by Four Continents. It is between Fumie Suguri and Yoshie Onda (Yukina Ota is out with an injury).

MM

gkelly · Jan 28, 2005

Mathman said:
Hi Blues Fan, I didn't know that about World War II. That's very interesting. I suppose that in the actual war years they didn't hold the competiton at all.

Right, no competition during the war. Or in 1946.

Maribel Vinson competed at 1934 Europeans, and won bronze, so non-Europeans were evidently *allowed* to enter the competition, but since there weren't any other prewar examples I could find, it doesn't seem that the travel was worth it for most European skaters.

Mathman · Jan 28, 2005

gkelly said:
Maribel Vinson competed at 1934 Europeans, and won bronze.

Oh no, Michelle will never be able to match Maribel after all!

Thank for the info, GKelly.

MM

nicole_l · Jan 28, 2005

Oh no, Michelle will never be able to match Maribel after all!

Eh... since 4CC is the "equivalent" of Europeans, maybe if she bothered to go, she'd better her.
Just kidding. Kwan and the other top American skaters are right...4CC and Worlds are just too close, and 4CC is generally too far away for it to be worth it.

thisthingcalledlove · Jan 28, 2005

Mathman said:
Then there was something called the Narth American championships, but since only two countries participated, it petered out, so they started up Four Continents.

Mathman

Yep. It began waay back in the 20's, and stopped in the early 70's. It was held every other year, so it wasn't as consistent as Euro's.

North American Championships

Maribel V. Owen did win it...so if Michelle wants to better her record, she should go to 4CC's LOL

miki_tan · Jan 29, 2005

gkelly said:
Maribel Vinson competed at 1934 Europeans, and won bronze, so non-Europeans were evidently *allowed* to enter the competition, but since there weren't any other prewar examples I could find

Etsuko Inada, Toshikazu Katayama and Kazuyoshi Oimatsu from Japan competed at 1936 Europeans.

4 Continents...

Doggygirl

BravesSkateFan

chuckm

hockeyfan228

Doggygirl

BravesSkateFan

hockeyfan228

A.H.Black

brad640

Mathman

gkelly

STL_Blues_fan

Doggygirl

Arsenette

Mathman

gkelly

Mathman

nicole_l

thisthingcalledlove

miki_tan

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