Forget the 4Axel, Hanyu should be training a 3A+3Lo combo for success | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Forget the 4Axel, Hanyu should be training a 3A+3Lo combo for success

Nadjell

Spectator
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
If I'm honest
I'd like him to try the Jason Brown method instead, no quads or maybe only one.
 

TallyT

Record Breaker
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Apr 23, 2018
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Australia
Yuzuru has not, at least in all the interviews I've seen correctly translated, said he is aiming for Beijing (despite the 40687459405057 times he's been asked about it).

Yuzuru has, clearly and definitively, said he wants the 4A more than anything (now he has the OGMs which everyone wants).

This young man has pretty much every accolade and honour this sport has to offer in his more than a decade at the top and has collected them under the sort of pressure, expectation and self-imposed obligation that IMO only Yuna could comprehend; he has been in the game - and experienced the dodgy politics and scoring for both good and ill - since an absolute infant, so he knows what the judging is about; he would be aware that the 4A is not - in bald, calculated points - probably worth the danger and difficulty (especially since the ISU in a blatant attempt to stop him and their other stars risking ankles and necks, downgraded its value).

He still wants it.

Yes, he still wants to win, but he wants the 4A too. Surely no one except the those with rancid prunes for hearts can begrudge him the satisfaction if he gets it... or if not, at least knowing he gave it his damnedest shot.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
He doesn't need to do the Euler in between the 4toe and 3flip. He can do them in combination. The rules were changed after 2018. Artur D. did a 3ltuz3flip combo a year or two ago. He could do a 4toe 3lutz 3flip combination jump.

Artur’s 3Z onto the left foot is one of a kind. It would be foolish of Hanyu to try to figure out how to do that. A 3A+3L is more realistic than that. But a 3A+3L with +4/+5 average GOE would be hard for him and very awkward. We would be likelier to see them combo from someone like Cha who has a solid 3Z+3L combo.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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That layout OP posted is way too ambitious. He barely skates his current programs cleanly, so a program like that seems unfeasible at least for now. He is completely out of gas already now

His current programs haven't been structured properly to ensure maximum stamina for the jumps. He does his footwork sequence earlier than is ideal for the scoring system, so of course he's going to be more tired earlier. He already landed 5 quads cleanly at the GPF (4S was suspect on the rotation but wasn't called), so if he had a program that gave him more breathing room, then of course it's going to be easier to land a difficult layout cleanly.

A more detailed "tactical" breakdown of the ideal competitive program would look like this:

[opening choreography]
4Loop
4Lutz
[skating around not too strenuously to have a "breather"]
3Axel+3Loop
spin
[skating around not too strenuously to have a "breather"]
4S
[skating around not too strenuously to have a "breather"]
4Toe+half loop+3Flip
[skating around not too strenuously to have a "breather"]
3Axel+3Toe
[skating around not too strenuously to have a "breather"]
4Toe
footwork sequence
spin
choreographic sequence
spin
[ending pose]

Well, there is a second way for Yuzuru to max out his base value with 5 quads, and it's to do a +quad combination. I wonder if he has it in him to do a 3A+4T?

I mean, that's just not realistic. 3Axel+3Loop for someone with as secure of a 3A as his, is something that could realistically be trained and relied on, when attempted relatively early in the program. +4Toe combos aren't reliable for humans yet, it's really not worth the risk.

He doesn't need to do the Euler in between the 4toe and 3flip. He can do them in combination. The rules were changed after 2018. Artur D. did a 3ltuz3flip combo a year or two ago. He could do a 4toe 3lutz 3flip combination jump.

There was never any rule against doing a 3Lutz+3Flip combo, it's just ridiculously hard and not really worth it.

4Toe+3Flip is definitely not realistic. And what is this magical 4Toe+3lutz+3flip combo? I applaud you for the satire if that was the intent! :thumbsup: :laugh:
 

Arbitrary

Medalist
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Well, Dmitriev landed 3Lz on the left leg, inner edge. Theoretically any jump may be landed this way.
But on the outer edge? Immediate ankle collapse and you will never skate again.

I'd not recommend trying landing on the left leg, outer edge. And you cannot change edge from inner to outer as it will not be a combo by ISU rules.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
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Jun 6, 2019
He doesn't need to do the Euler in between the 4toe and 3flip. He can do them in combination. The rules were changed after 2018. Artur D. did a 3ltuz3flip combo a year or two ago. He could do a 4toe 3lutz 3flip combination jump.

Firstly, landing on wrong foot would be incredibly difficult. Secondly, lutz is on the other edge, so he'd have to change edge ruining the rhythm of the combination, unless he jumped 3lz the other way and after landing the 4T he reversed rotating direction.
 

icetug

Medalist
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Yuzuru has, clearly and definitively, said he wants the 4A more than anything (now he has the OGMs which everyone wants).
You must forget everything Yuzuru said, especially that his goal would be to land 4A. Everybody here knows that the one and only Yuzuru's aim is to win over Nathan Chen. What has been proved in 40+ posts now ;).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
His current programs haven't been structured properly to ensure maximum stamina for the jumps. He does his footwork sequence earlier than is ideal for the scoring system, so of course he's going to be more tired earlier. He already landed 5 quads cleanly at the GPF (4S was suspect on the rotation but wasn't called), so if he had a program that gave him more breathing room, then of course it's going to be easier to land a difficult layout cleanly.

A more detailed "tactical" breakdown of the ideal competitive program would look like this:

[opening choreography]
4Loop
4Lutz
[skating around not too strenuously to have a "breather"]
3Axel+3Loop
spin
[skating around not too strenuously to have a "breather"]
4S
[skating around not too strenuously to have a "breather"]
4Toe+half loop+3Flip
[skating around not too strenuously to have a "breather"]
3Axel+3Toe
[skating around not too strenuously to have a "breather"]
4Toe
footwork sequence
spin
choreographic sequence
spin
[ending pose]



I mean, that's just not realistic. 3Axel+3Loop for someone with as secure of a 3A as his, is something that could realistically be trained and relied on, when attempted relatively early in the program. +4Toe combos aren't reliable for humans yet, it's really not worth the risk.



There was never any rule against doing a 3Lutz+3Flip combo, it's just ridiculously hard and not really worth it.

4Toe+3Flip is definitely not realistic. And what is this magical 4Toe+3lutz+3flip combo? I applaud you for the satire if that was the intent! :thumbsup: :laugh:

I know you’re talking about an idealized program but this isn’t conducive to a balanced program. It’s rather Plushenko esque... get the jumps out of the way and then check off the remaining spins and footwork to finish off. Tactically it’s good (I mean an even better tactic would be to move the first spin to the end and make a spin-footwork-spin-choreo-spin sandwich.) but artistically it is not.

His footwork IS ideal for the scoring system because it offers a break in the middle of the program and gives it better structure - which would contribute to better PCS. Whereas any typical judge would dock him for composition and maybe even interpretation and performance if he backloaded his easier elements and made it an obvious jump fest. And of course “skating around not too strenuously” with all those breathers would/should reduce skating skills and probably transitions (which I’m guessing skating around not too strenuously implies).

Looking at points from GOE it doesn’t make sense to add a 3A+3L when I’m sure most people would agree that he could execute a 3A+3T with more security and quality. I can’t imagine him doing a 3A+3L and getting more than +3s because he will not get the same quality of landing on his - 3L as he would on a 3A-3T or solo 3A, and obviously it’s super risky.
 

Tahuu

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Hahah! I forgot Yuzuru said all those things!
So dramatic, such a diva he is xD
Omg, those phrases are pretty epic, they belong to a figure skating movie! Netflix should be writing every Yuzuru phrase down if they’re planning to film a new skating show, with dramatic Japanese male protagonist this time hopefully!

The show should not forget to include a scene in Turino GPF gala where yuzu made a gold medal for him with the yellow confetti!
 

khtmyzr

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
From what I understand, for Yuzuru it is landing the 4A over upping the BVs. As he has noted himself that he knows it would be quicker and easier to up his BVs by training his 4Lz and do two of them instead. The Axel is what he wants so he’s going to go for it. So I doubt he would go for the suggested combo.

(That said, here’s a clip of him playing around with 4T-3T-3Lo combo a few years back https://twitter.com/max_ambesi/status/868461596930170880?s=21 )
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
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Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Looking at points from GOE it doesn’t make sense to add a 3A+3L when I’m sure most people would agree that he could execute a 3A+3T with more security and quality.

....you need to read and process things before responding. This is so annoying and time-wasting, please stop. The entire point of the 3A+3Lo is that there is literally no other option under the rules we have, in order to get a base value advantage. His program already has 3A+3T. When you are already doing a repeat Quad, you can't just repeat another 3A+3Toe combo (zayak rule). Without a +3Loop combo, your best option to maximize base value is a 3Lutz+3Toe combo. If you want another 3Axel, then it has to be in combination with only a double jump. Hence, Hanyu would be upgrading his current 3Axel+2Toe to a 3Axel+3Loop. A big point increase.

I think he could definitely get solid GOE on a combo like that too, if he really trained it (unless there is some quirk of his skating that seriously prevents him from doing +3Loop combo at all). He'd be the only person in the whole world doing 3A+3Lo. Judges are extra generous towards elements that stand out like this, and skaters of his reputation get good GOE on every element they do anyway, so long as they execute it relatively clean.

I know you’re talking about an idealized program but this isn’t conducive to a balanced program. Tactically it’s good (I mean an even better tactic would be to move the first spin to the end and make a spin-footwork-spin-choreo-spin sandwich.) but artistically it is not.

It's fine from a "balanced program" perspective and artistically it's mostly irrelevant. That's not what artistry is. The musicality and movement and expression itself is what will define the artistry. Speaking in general terms though, I would prefer that setup from an artistic perspective, over what people have been doing. The footwork sequences these days are too often wasted, there's little excitement about them. Landing a final 4Toe and then going into a footwork sequence straight down the ice is more exciting (even if the rules prevent the footwork sequences from being fully musical and choreographically cohesive these days). We're past the era where Hanyu is going to be saving an exciting jump for the very end of the program (and Chen won't either), like his 3Lutz at the end of the 2017 program, so he should just game the system better, because the most exciting jump layout is already off the table. Might as well take the smartest approach and intelligently choreograph the program to fit that direction.

As for the thing you say of moving all the spins to the second half, there's not enough time. Having only 4 jump elements as the first half of the program is going to create less time for breathing room in the second half, which means there would be less time to prepare for the last two jump elements, and that's not good. The most important thing is to be able to deliver those last jump elements with as much comfort as possible. The ridiculous amount of points jumps get from GOE now, and the amount of jump content being included, has made it so the jumps far overtake every other concern of the program. If you hit this kind of jump layout cleanly, you are simply going to win, unless the rest of your skating is atrocious (and even then....)

His footwork IS ideal for the scoring system because it offers a break in the middle of the program and gives it better structure - which would contribute to better PCS. Whereas any typical judge would dock him for composition and maybe even interpretation and performance if he backloaded his easier elements

Hilarious. The judges don't know what they're doing and they absolutely do not dock for composition and interpretation just because of moving the footwork sequence later in the program. They won't even realize it. Not unless there is some kind of talk against a skater for their program being problematic, and even then they don't much (as we saw with Zagitova in 2018). Absolutely beautiful programs can be created with the program structure I outlined. They will be highly rewarded. Jason Brown's program is already extremely close to this (he just does the choreography sequence before his last jump) and he just got huge PCS at 4CC.

This is also the program structure Kevin Aymoz is already using (not the exact order I listed here, but the same idea of saving the footwork and 2 spins for after the jumps are done), and I think he has THE best Long Program of anyone this season.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think he could definitely get solid GOE on a combo like that too, if he really trained it (unless there is some quirk of his skating that seriously prevents him from doing +3Loop combo at all). He'd be the only person in the whole world doing 3A+3Lo. Judges are extra generous towards elements that stand out like this, and skaters of his reputation get good GOE on every element they do anyway, so long as they execute it relatively clean.


According to this, Hanyu, has never even competed a -DOUBLE loop combination going all the way back to 2010 (http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=player&playerid=618). What makes you think he would suddenly have great comfort and success with a -3L (not just landing, but good GOE) ... and after a 3A no less? The guy can do a 4L - so why has he never done a 3A+2L for some easy extra points, instead of a 3A+2T?

The answer is obviously that he would have to train a different way of landing his 3A in order to allow for a double or (as you're theorizing) a triple loop combination. Yes, a 4L/3L are manageable for him, but anyone who has a reasonable understanding/practice of skating knows that a solo loop and a loop in combination differ in their approach, timing/rhythm, and execution. Sure he could try to train a 3A+3L but it would be such a weird combination for him. I am 100% the execution would not be comparable to his 3A+2T by the very nature of -loop combos. They just don't get great GOE. You don't get the same vault or distance, and it is exceedingly difficult to make a 3L combo look effortless, so the risk of giving up GOE bullets is there. He's also so used to checking his free leg out of his jumps but in a loop combination you have to keep the leg in and square your hips to avoid over rotating so you can hit the exact timing going up into the loop. Such a technique is simply not how he is used to doing his jumps, and that is evidenced by the fact that he's never ever competed a -double or -triple loop combination.

Imaginative layouts are fun and stuff, but incorporating a 3A+3L to an already exceedingly demanding layout could inevitably compromise his other jumps. You have to consider the skater's limitations (not that you do, recalling when you suggested Wagner should have a backloaded program that had 5 triples and two 2As). But I suppose it's fun to idealize and theorize.

I suppose I could create a whole thread as to why it would be more beneficial for Chen to put his 4Z and 4F in the latter half and swap out a 4T with a 4Z to get 2 points more, or put in a 4L where the 3A is (+2.5 points BV) and end the program with a more valuable 3A+3T instead of a 3Z+3T (+2.1 points increase). Or put a 4F+3T in his SP instead of a 4T+3T. The difference between those ideas and Hanyu's 3A+3L being that Chen actually has landed those jumping passes in competition and shown the ability to do 6 quads, so at least there's some precedence as to his capability in theoretically upgrading. Hanyu there isn't even precedence for a double loop combination.

With regards to the 3A+3L and your layout compromising Hanyu's other jumps, stamina would be a huge issue. Hanyu was successful in doing 5 quads at the GPF -- but he also messed up his last 3 jump elements --- UR/stepped out of his 4T-Eu-3F, failed to do a 4T+3T (turning it to a 4T+2T) and popped his planned 3A+3A sequence, because he was so gassed. At 4CC, he went for 4 quads and still only was able to execute just 2 of them cleanly - his second 4T was a UR fall because he was starting to get tired. At Nationals he fell on his final 3A due to fatigue. So excuse me if I'm a bit skeptical about your 5 quad, 3A+3L, 3A+3T layout. But hey, I will agree on one thing, it does seem way more realistic and safer than training/managing a 4A.

I'll also agree that Kevin has the best long program of the season, but has nothing to do with his jump layout and everything to do with his talent, choreography and level of performance -- unless you're referring to the fact that his jump layout starts with his hardest jumps and then moves on to a relatively easier second half - of a 3A, 3Z+Eu+3S, and 3F - allowing him to conserve energy for maximum expression and performance in his final step sequence. Meanwhile, you're asking Hanyu to do a 4T+Eu+3F, 3A+3T, and a 4T, and then still somehow perform his step/choreo sequence with energy and conviction. :unsure:
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I'd be interested in seeing a maximized layout of elements he can already do. I agree with CanadianSkaterGuy that, although Yuzuru's 3A is fantastic, it doesn't mean a 3A-3Lo combo would be feasible and consistent. If he can land his existing jumps with the quality he did in the 4CC SP, no one can touch him.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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The guy can do a 4L - so why has he never done a 3A+2L for some easy extra points, instead of a 3A+2T?

For the same reason nobody else does 3A+2Lo: because the tiny base value increase isn't worth the extra difficulty. The judging system we have does not accurately reflect the difficultly of everything. It takes WAY more control to do a Loop combo on the end of a hard jump, particularly one that flows well. It's so much easier to just jam your toepick into the ice and do the toeloop.

If Hanyu had to train 3A+2Lo, which was a "necessity" for top men back in 1988 (!!!), then he would be able to do it beautifully I'm sure. Would he be able to do 3A+3Lo reliably if he actually put the time in to train it? I don't know for sure, but I do think out of all the guys, he's someone who would be most likely to master it. Given that this combination is very possibly the most realistic way Hanyu could find a technical advantage over Chen, it would be wise of him to pursue it. This is literally the most valuable a +3Loop combo has ever been under the CoP judging system, because of how it interacts with the number of jumping passes and attempted jumps being performed.

I suppose I could create a whole thread as to why it would be more beneficial for Chen to put his 4Z and 4F in the latter half and swap out a 4T with a 4Z to get 2 points more

There's obvious reasons why that's not already happening.

It's strange though, you always assert that something isn't possible, as a straw-man argument. Just a few years ago you said it wasn't feasible for someone to put 5 Triples in the second half of their program. :laugh:

Adam Rippon of all people was suddenly doing high quality 3Flip+3Loop after never doing combos like that before. So let's stop the tiresome argument about how such things are not realistic, simply because they haven't been done yet. The fact of the matter is, there are beneficial ideas out there that certain skaters and coaches haven't considered yet.
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
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Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
The fact of the matter is, there are beneficial ideas out there that certain skaters and coaches haven't considered yet.

Or have considered and have rejected, for such very good reasons as not wanting to live with both permanently destroyed ankles and a ruinously torn-up hip for the next fifty-plus years. Even a jump-mad, winning-mad nutcase like Hanyu can make that calculus, especially now that he's facing the reality that his body is starting to limit him compared to what he could ask of it in his teenage years.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Yeah, because trying to train the 4A and 4Lz and 4Lo is surely a recipe for avoiding physical issues! Doesn't make logical sense, and anyway there's plenty of things that have been shown to be poorly considered by these skaters and their teams. Pretty much everyone in this sport has been too insular for their own good and chained down by a kind of tribal mentality. It's really too bad Hanyu felt the need to switch away from the programs he had. They could have been the brilliant artistic creations he surely wanted them to be, but there wasn't enough perspective to shape them. Regardless if he were to go for the 3A+3Lo combo or not, I'd still wish for him to have better program construction and choreography. I mean, I hope for everyone to have their best programs possible, and most of the time it doesn't happen because the thought is simply not being put in.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
I think Hanyu needs to work on skating a clean long program before he starts adding in more difficult technical elements.
 

theharleyquinn

Medalist
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Feb 25, 2014
I think Hanyu needs to work on skating a clean long program before he starts adding in more difficult technical elements.

Agreed. I think there's a real psychological barrier at work here with him. He was incredible at Skate Canada, but as competition with Nathan creeps closer, I think he's really prone to second-guessing himself and his plan. I find that worrisome because he is so capable of competing against Nathan at his absolute best (and winning under those circumstances). I'm hoping that the switch back to the old programs helps with some of that psychology, but it won't do everything. He needs to find the competitive layout he wants and stick with it up until the FS at Worlds.

As far as the 4A goes, I think it's an admirable goal. But the 4A and winning Worlds seem to be mutually exclusive to me - I don't think he can do both.
 

YuBluByMe

May Rika spin her hair into GOLD….in 2026.
Final Flight
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Is 4A allowed in the SP?

Yes, but a 4A won’t replace a 3A because a 2A or 3A is required in the SP. This is why it’s not worth doing a 4A in the SP. A silly quirk of the rules similar to how a solo 3A is banned in Juniors yet you can still do it in combination.
 
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