Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
I would raise it to 16 across the board for the Olympics. I was reading on a 12th grade level in the 6th grade. I wasn’t emotionally mature enough to go to high school or college. An 11 or 12 year olds brain is not equipped to understand what dangers may be inherent in what they are doing and the adults around them may or may not have their best interests in mind. Just because a thing can be done doesn’t mean it should be.

6th grade is 11 y/o, right? 12th is 17 y/o. You really think there is no in between with an 11 and 17 y/o???? Nonsense. At the most, make the limit 16, like gymnastics. I particularly find the 3A even without the ultra elements to be more interesting skaters than Bradie, Mariah, that emotional case from Canada, etc.
 

KOBOT37

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Tonya harding and early axle crew werent forced onto powdered nutrients or "legal drugs"(basically new ones that havent been banned yet designed to delay puberty or prevent injury).

if you think that athletes aren't using a medicine which is not banned and helps... I have a very nice seaside property in Hungary to sell to you.


citation needed.

tutberetzi academy have admitted to given zagitova drugs

So does every coach,in every sport.

p.s statement that harmful drugs are used more now than they were 20 years ago is extremely doubtful, most likely outright wrong, considering what happened in every other olympic sport decades ago.
 

KOBOT37

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Anyway, this discussion is entirely pointless, nobody is going to ban quads (or any other elements) if they aren't injuring people here and now.
 

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Country
Northern-Ireland
Having thought about this quite a bit over the past six weeks or so, I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather they created an intermediate level of competition between junior and senior. Make Juniors 14-16, Intemediates 16-18 and Seniors 18+, with only one year of leeway for pairs/dance teams and no early advancement allowed. It would allow a more staggered introduction of high-danger elements like triple axels and quads and triple/quadruple twists and throw jumps too: say, no 3As or quads permitted in the junior level, one 3A permitted in the Intermediate SP and one 3A/one quad in the FS, and then the current rules for seniors stay in place for both men and women. Some lift restrictions for Juniors and Intermediates too, and more staggered pattern dance progression for ID.

I 100 % agree with you. What Harriet proposes would be good idea, but I will there be interest, time and money enough to organize 3 different WC competitions? Or could the competitions be combined to same? But, in many other sports there are junior competitions to more than one different age levels, why not at FS as well? But, they have not had those competitions every year and some of those competitions have been also abolished or combined, maybe just money or lack of audience interest?

Funnily enough, I made a similar proposal a few years ago:

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?50603&p=932736&viewfull=1#post932736

However, I was shouted down by a skating parent. And since I don't like getting into arguments, I retreated.

Looking back, I was being very naïve. As you have said TT_Fin, there is not enough money in the sport to be organising more Major Championships. Plus, the calendar is full enough as it is without adding more events.

That is one thing I do think seriously needs an overhaul - the calendar. Because this is a fringe sport in most of the world, and having weeks when there are 3 or 4 events on at the same time really spreads things too thin.

It means that fans are spread thin. I was watching a livestream of a Senior B on YouTube a week or two ago, and when I looked at the number of viewers at one stage, there were only 300 odd watching. And there were a lot less than that in the arena.

And it means skaters are spread thin as well. And let's face it, small entry numbers are likely to put people off watching, be it in person or on TV, because they can probably work out what the result is going to be.

Small entry numbers is something I would be worried about if we split the current Majors up. For example, I have long believed that it would make more sense to have 3 regional Championships rather than the current 2:

  • European Championships
  • Pan-American Championships
  • Four Continents

Admittedly, the main part of the reason I want this is that I don't like the way that the Championship for non-European countries is called "Four Continents", when it actually takes in six continents. So, if you give the Americas their own Championships, that sorts out the name for the "Rest Of The World" Championships. :)

The problem is, Four Continents gets very small entries as it is. And that is even with every country being allowed 3 slots. So if it was split, the two successor Championships would have even smaller entries. And the results would be even more predictable.

And, again, how would you fit another Major into an already packed calendar?

So, no, until there is a major overhaul of the calendar, I think creating more Major Championships is out of the question.

Oh, and change the names so that Juniors and Intermediate are 'boys' and 'girls' and Seniors are 'men' and 'women', thanks ever so, ISU.

Erm, no.

Maybe it's because of the way it is used here, but I have always considered the term "woman" to be highly derogatory. The most common term used for a female here is "girl". When somebody uses the term "woman" to describe a female, they are saying that she is old and / or ugly. And everybody understands that this is what is being implied.

So, that is why I like that this sport uses the word "Ladies" for the female category of this sport. And why I wish all sports would do the same.

CaroLiza_fan
 

Dr. Jenn

Medalist
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Maybe it's because of the way it is used here, but I have always considered the term "woman" to be highly derogatory. The most common term used for a female here is "girl". When somebody uses the term "woman" to describe a female, they are saying that she is old and / or ugly. And everybody understands that this is what is being implied.

So, that is why I like that this sport uses the word "Ladies" for the female category of this sport. And why I wish all sports would do the same.

CaroLiza_fan

You have got to be kidding. The term 'ladies' is incredibly sexist and outdated. It is laden with connotations about "being a lady" that are rife in this sport. Besides, the parallel term to 'men' is 'women'.
 

rollerblade

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Why is the skating community so weird with wording? Nobody made a fuss that the female gymnastics discipline is called Women's Gymnastics.
 

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Country
Northern-Ireland
You have got to be kidding. The term 'ladies' is incredibly sexist and outdated. It is laden with connotations about "being a lady" that are rife in this sport. Besides, the parallel term to 'men' is 'women'.

Believe it or not, that is exactly the way it is here. If you are female, it is the ultimate insult to be described using the term "woman". And that is why I cringe every time I look at the results pages from Canadian competitions, and see the female category called "Women" instead of "Ladies".

I should have said it in the previous comment, but the same implications are attached to the term "man". However, the term "boy" is also considered derogatory, as it is used to imply that somebody is immature. So, I always find it difficult to find a word to describe male skaters when writing on the forum. Even though I absolutely hate the word, most of the time I end up using the term "guys". For the simple reason that it does not have any insults attached to it.

It just shows how people in different parts of the world use words differently.

But, this is getting way off topic. So, let's get back to talking ages.

CaroLiza_fan
 

CaroLiza_fan

EZETTIE LATUASV IVAKMHA
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Country
Northern-Ireland
Since I was the one that inadvertantly took the thread off topic, I will try to get it back on topic.

It may not happen, today I read an 11 year old from Syria has qualified from the Summer Olympics and a 12 year old from UK is qualified in skateboarding for Tokyo. Some uniformity is in order.

I would raise it to 16 across the board for the Olympics. I was reading on a 12th grade level in the 6th grade. I wasn’t emotionally mature enough to go to high school or college. An 11 or 12 year olds brain is not equipped to understand what dangers may be inherent in what they are doing and the adults around them may or may not have their best interests in mind. Just because a thing can be done doesn’t mean it should be.

I was talking about all Olympic sports. The Olympics aren’t for 11 year olds in skating or downhill skiing or equestrian or track and field. They aren’t for 11 year olds period. It’s ridiculous.

Totally agree with everything you both have said.

Never mind the Olympics, there should be uniformity across ALL sports when it comes to the minimum age to compete at the Senior / Elite level. And 16 seems to be a good age to set it at.

18 would be more logical on paper, as that is when you become an adult. But setting it that high would effectively prevent young talent coming through in a lot of sports. Plus most sports have 18 as the upper limit for the Junior level, and I believe that there does need to be an overlap (but, just not as much as the 4 years that we currently have in figure skating!)

I understand that not all sports are the same, and so there does need to be variation in the rules between sports, even when they are being held as part of the same event. But, I do not think that the minimum age for the Senior / Elite level should be one of the things that varies.

When it comes to the Olympics, it does make a mockery of the whole system if you have people competing in the "Senior" games (i.e. the Olympics) who are too young to compete in the "Novice" games (i.e. the International Children's Games) never mind the "Junior" games (i.e. the Youth Olympic Games).

Plus, there is also the issue of child protection if you have young children competing in the same competition as adults. This is one of the main reasons most sports have always had children and adults competing separately. So, why go against that principle now?

If normal events were allowed to be open to all ages, it would be a nightmare for the organisers, as they would have an awful lot more legislation to comply with. And, hence, a lot more cost. I have no doubt that it would lead to less events, as organisers would decide that it is not worth the extra hassle.

So, I think the IOC are playing a dangerous game, as letting younger athletes into the Olympics makes people think that it would be good for the sports as it allows more athletes into competitions. When in fact doing this would be a disaster for the sports, as the added red tape would put organisers off holding events.

CaroLiza_fan
 

TallyT

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Country
Australia
You have got to be kidding. The term 'ladies' is incredibly sexist and outdated. It is laden with connotations about "being a lady" that are rife in this sport. Besides, the parallel term to 'men' is 'women'.

It needs to be the same for both sexes - men and women or ladies and gentlemen - anything else is condescending and rather risible in this millenium. And while the current crop of top male skaters are impeccably gentlemanly for the most part, the fact that the sport using 'gentlemen' instead of 'men' would make most people either cringe or mock exemplifies why 'ladies' should be consigned to the past (in sport. In social intercourse, you will prise 'ladies and gentlemen' out of my cold dead and unabashedly old-fashioned hands)
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
Tonya harding and early axle crew werent forced onto powdered nutrients or "legal drugs"(basically new ones that havent been banned yet designed to delay puberty or prevent injury).

Nobody knows what will happen - tutberetzi academy have admitted to given zagitova drugs, so we should all be watching zagitova closely over the years to see what happens...

Thank you. They also did not do multiple triple axels per program and they trained other things besides jumping. Tonya Harding was during figures era.
 

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Country
United-States
Fine, but what to do about triples? :biggrin:

Look, you can joke if you want, but I’m tired of this sport hurting people I actually care about (rampant eating disorders which will almost certainly be exacerbated if women need to stay the size of prepubescent girls to make a jump go around 4 times instead of 3. Not to mention retiring due to injury before they’re 18. Other sports are trying to solve these problems. I don’t know why figure skating can’t.
 

Fried

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Look, you can joke if you want, but I’m tired of this sport hurting people I actually care about (rampant eating disorders which will almost certainly be exacerbated if women need to stay the size of prepubescent girls to make a jump go around 4 times instead of 3. Not to mention retiring due to injury before they’re 18.

I don't want to disagree with you in principle, but the question that came to my mind was how many thousands of quads Trusova may have jumped so far. No one has ever heard of an injury. Not even with Shcherbakova (at least not in relation to a quad). So it seems to be an important part of the right training. At least it makes this impression on a layperson like me.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Even though I absolutely hate the word, most of the time I end up using the term "guys". For the simple reason that it does not have any insults attached to it.

Sure it does. It refers to an effigy of Guy Fawkes (executed in 1606 for trying to blow up the House of Lords during the religious wars of the time.)

Nowadays, it means a palsy-walsy buddy not to be taken seriously -- same as a "dude," "mate", "bro'," etc.

I am frankly astonished that there is any culture where the word "woman" carries a negative connotation.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Look, you can joke if you want, but I’m tired of this sport hurting people I actually care about (rampant eating disorders which will almost certainly be exacerbated if women need to stay the size of prepubescent girls to make a jump go around 4 times instead of 3. Not to mention retiring due to injury before they’re 18. Other sports are trying to solve these problems. I don’t know why figure skating can’t.

I could not agree with you more. I wouldn't even object to changing the age to 17. But I think 16 is enough to weed out the practice of keeping girls on a starvation diet and exercising them so much that they remain pre-pubescent for their first year of seniors and, if they're lucky, into their second, so that they can win for a couple of years with an unsustainable technique for a woman's body. If people don't think that's what's happening, I really think they need to take a long hard look at reality. I think it hurts these young women and the sport as a whole. It has really impacted my enjoyment of watching it.

And I have no problem with it applying to men as well. The injuries in men's skating scare me as it is, and that's mostly in the post-pubescent crowd, since staying small and relatively weaker is not an advantage in the men's field. On the whole, my interest in watching men's skating has waned as the quad mania has taken hold. There are still occasionally sublime performances, which has prevented me from giving up on it altogether, but there are an awful lot more splatfests, which are not enjoyable to watch.

I'm 100 per cent in favour of raising the age limit. On the other hand, I don't think it's going to happen any time soon. Too many powerful players have too much vested interest in keeping the system exactly as it is.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
:palmf:
And how exactly raising an age can fight "eating disorder" danger? :unsure: If anything - it will make situation even worse :confused2: Low age is natural way to have low weight after all. The higher the age - the more is need to keep weight by unnatural way. Majority of eating disorder victims are puberty or post-puberty girls - i.e. 16-18-20 y.o. Again, how exactly raising an age will make them to train in healthy way? It won't make them win medals, that's for sure. And it won't make competition (and therefore need for unnatural diets) among juniors any less - no, it will be other way around.
That's the thing - it's impossible to affect eating disorder danger by any rules in any competitive sport where weight is important. Banning the quads would be more logical way to deal with it. At least it's closer to the source of a problem than age. Still, it won't make any difference because weight is important for triples as well. And even if you ban triples - weight still is important for stamina, spins, everything. If there is a way to win over your rivals in competitive sport - they will do it. If they won't - it will use their rivals. It's that simple.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
:palmf:
And how exactly raising an age can fight "eating disorder" danger? :unsure: If anything - it will make situation even worse :confused2: Low age is natural way to have low weight after all. The higher the age - the more is need to keep weight by unnatural way. Majority of eating disorder victims are puberty or post-puberty girls - i.e. 16-18-20 y.o. Again, how exactly raising an age will make them to train in healthy way? It won't make them win medals, that's for sure. And it won't make competition (and therefore need for unnatural diets) among juniors any less - no, it will be other way around.
That's the thing - it's impossible to affect eating disorder danger by any rules in any competitive sport where weight is important. Banning the quads would be more logical way to deal with it. At least it's closer to the source of a problem than age. Still, it won't make any difference because weight is important for triples as well. And even if you ban triples - weight still is important for stamina, spins, everything. If there is a way to win over your rivals in competitive sport - they will do it. If they won't - it will use their rivals. It's that simple.

It will make a difference because post-puberty women will no longer be required to compete against pre-pubescent girls. Their careers are not over as soon as they go through the natural process of developing hips and a bust. It levels the playing field and decreases the need to try to delay puberty through severely restrictive dieting and overtraining. (I'm presuming here that drugs are not a factor.) It also increases the chance they will be taught a proper technique (jumping primarily with the legs, instead of the arms and back) that will last them through to seniors.

Will it eliminate eating disorders? Of course not. But I do believe that it will decrease the likelihood. Not to mention that I'd like to be following a sport that celebrates women and their bodies rather than telling them in a not-so-subtle way that as soon as they are no longer built like a boy they are yesterday's news.
 

anonymoose_au

Insert weird opinion here
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Australia
:eek:topic: Petition to rename "Mens" to "Gentlemens" I think it adds a touch of class. ;)

They do it for Wimbledon.
 

formersk8ter

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
I don't want to disagree with you in principle, but the question that came to my mind was how many thousands of quads Trusova may have jumped so far. No one has ever heard of an injury. Not even with Shcherbakova (at least not in relation to a quad). So it seems to be an important part of the right training. At least it makes this impression on a layperson like me.

THIS. Exactly.

I am not in favor of raising the minimum age. At the end of the day, FS is an Olympic SPORT. The idea of senior ladies not being competitive with junior ladies, from an athletic perspective (and that's basically what we're talking about here), is completely ridiculous.

Also, I'm not buying into the idea of being "concerned" about the health of prepubescent girls, as much as I'm thinking that certain fans are simply sour grapes about younger -- and more athletically proficient -- girls beating their longtime favorites.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
It will make a difference because post-puberty women will no longer be required to compete against pre-pubescent girls. Their careers are not over as soon as they go through the natural process of developing hips and a bust. It levels the playing field and decreases the need to try to delay puberty through severely restrictive dieting and overtraining. (I'm presuming here that drugs are not a factor.) It also increases the chance they will be taught a proper technique (jumping primarily with the legs, instead of the arms and back) that will last them through to seniors.

Will it eliminate eating disorders? Of course not. But I do believe that it will decrease the likelihood. Not to mention that I'd like to be following a sport that celebrates women and their bodies rather than telling them in a not-so-subtle way that as soon as they are no longer built like a boy they are yesterday's news.

So, you don't care about raising number of strong skaters and competition among juniors as a result of raising the age (and thus - raising likelihood of unhealthy diets among juniors)? It seems your real reason is
levels the playing field
and
celebrates women and their bodies
first and foremost. Judging by what you said - all you care about is seniors. Or, to speak more specifically, preserving comfortable and familiar picture of what fs was 10-20 years ago. And juniors health is just an excuse.
 
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