2002 Olympic Ladies Scores

Sylvia said:

Pizzocari on placing Cohen 3rd:
"Sasha Cohen missed a triple- triple combination, but still she made all the
other jumps... Some of her landings were stiff, but in any case, she had a
wonderful flow throughout the ice. She brings life in her skating. I
especially loved the extension of her arms and free leg and the spirals are
wonderful.""

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I'm surprised he didn't put Sasha first. He is a big fan of Sasha.

Bravesfanskate: It is not easy to tell underrotated jumps from the TV, and one has to be in the correct spot in the arena to be sure. We could talk about Kimmie's 3A and it would become a he said she said but some of that opens up a new light on a nitpick.
As for disagreeing, that's what makes the Board interesting. I don't enjoy the gush posts and limit my MK gushing to twice a season.

Jimenez - It's ok to see what I didn't see. Apparently, 4-5 judges saw something. I don't think Sarah would have won solely on the clean skate. She needed some sort of pizzaz.

When you think about what people see on TV it gets tough to be sure. During the Ladies Lilihammer, I saw Baiul double foot every jump she did. Her fans did not see any of that. Nancy skated clean. The five former Warsaw Pact judges did not see it.

Joe

Sarah deserved to win because she had a clean skate with two 3/3s and for maybe the first and only time in her life, did not skate conservatively. She skated with spirit and zest, something I never saw her do in any of her previous outings.

Irina was s-l-o-w and tight and she skated like a sleepwalker. That was the first time I ever saw her skate like that. I would have had her behind Kwan, because even though Kwan fell, she at least skated as if she were inhabiting her body, and the second half of her skate did have some of the Kwan zing.

But both Kwan and Slute lost because they were too careful and did not display the qualities that made both of them champions. Sarah let it all go that one time, maybe because she didn't think she had any chance of winning, but she did have the skate of her life. Forget underrotations, forget flutzing, that night it was the PERFORMANCE that mattered, and Sarah had the best one by far.

gezando said:

SOI is just a show, whether she is the best or worst performer on SOI is not important, and is entirely subjective. On the record book she is still the reigning OGM, and she belongs to a very exclusive club, Currently Irina, Michelle, Cohen, Arakwa et al are working their butt off to get a shot at a membership of that club

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All I know it's an embarassment to the sport for a Reigning OGM skated like that. And a missleading to the young skaters who watched her SOI performance that doubles could lead to OGM.

How many members currently in this exclusive club? Peggy, Dorthy, Carol H., Witt, Kristi, Okasana, Tara, Sarah, and someone else? Hardly that exclusive!

Michelle in a most exclusive club by her own with 5 worlds titles and 9 US titles among the 9 US titles she beaten the last two OGM several times. Who else can claim to be in this club?

Sarah's presentation was horrible and Sasha looked like the best skater in the World after sitting though Sarah's plodding program

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Sarah's presentation was not horrible. We are talking about presentation and not artistry, b/c artistry is subjective, super fans consistently claim their favorites to be the best in artistry, and that is something that can not be debated. OTOH there is objective elements in judging presentation. In terms of presentation Sarah's Olympic performance was superior to Cohen's. Cohen had better carriage and lines compared to Sarah. Sarah had better variation of speed, more flow and ease from more complex transitions. Sarah's connection to the music is way ahead of Cohen. In fact Cohen's musicality was lackluster in Olympics 2002, and is still lackluster today.

Sarah skated to Daphnis and Chloe, and she was brilliant in her interpretation. Sarah had the youthful honesty for this piece of ballet music about teenage romantic love. Ravel wrote this piece from the impressionist to the jazz period, and the music reflects it. Sarah had the lyricism and energy to carry this piece of music off. Sarah demonstrated emotional and intecllectual connection to her music even at 16.

Cohen's volume of presentation has 3 dial settings, loud, louder and loudest, when she chooses to be so called "firey". She has one presentation dial setting, i.e. uninspired when she chooses to be so called "lyric". Cohen's musicality consists mainly of waiting for a phrase of music that allows her to display her flexibility, here is a spiral, here is a curl. Regardless of what the emotiional, and intellectual meaning of the piece of music or the phrase of music she is skating to, it is the same mode of presentation. Her music in Olympics 2002 was a generic Carmen orchestral fantasy. She used all 4 dial settings in that program, uninspired during the more lyric section and phrases of the e.g. Don Jose aria Le fleur. The loud, and louder dial settings for the "firey" sections / phrases. The net presentation objective is the same, "look, a spiral with pointed toes, a SashaCurl(TM)." But Sasha where is the emotional and intellectual connection to the music?

Therefore I have to disagree, and I think Sarah's presentation at Olympics 2002 lp was more superior than Cohen's

Presentation or artistry... Sarah's hunchback and rounded shoulders and otherwise GAWKY skating did nothing for me. At the very minimum, I expect the OGM skater to at least hold her head up and skate with good posture. Sarah was absolutely klutzy out there. You can't even begin to compare Sarah with Sasha. Regardless of whether you like Sasha or not or think Sasha is weak, Sasha always skates with beautiful posture and hits elegant positions. There was a huge difference in the quality of the skaters between Sasha and Sarah and this was even reflected in the judges' scores. Sasha despite her mistakes, was scored very close to a clean as a whistle Sarah. In fact, had Sasha just made the one mistake on the combo and skated the rest of the program clean, she definitely would have beaten Sarah in the freeskate. That's how high the judges valued her skating.

If the judges value Sasha's skating so much, then why didn't she place higher than 3rd at Worlds last year? For once, she had no falls, just two botched jumps. I'll tell you why: Sasha freezes up so badly at the important events that she has zero musicality, zero personality and zero presentation. She was so flat in the revamped, choreography-minus "Swan Lake" that she placed ahead of Miki in the FS only because Miki was even less musical and had even less personality and verve.

But watch out for Miki next year.

MM

chuckm said:

If the judges value Sasha's skating so much, then why didn't she place higher than 3rd at Worlds last year? For once, she had no falls, just two botched jumps. I'll tell you why: Sasha freezes up so badly at the important events that she has zero musicality, zero personality and zero presentation. She was so flat in the revamped, choreography-minus "Swan Lake" that she placed ahead of Miki in the FS only because Miki was even less musical and had even less personality and verve.

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It's all relative to her other competitors (as in any event). If Shizuka had skated like that in 2002, she would have won the OGM hands down. But she wasn't even there. 2002 was Sasha, Irina, MK and Sarah and Sarah was the least polished of the four. 2004 Worlds was a different story with a higher quality of skating all around. Though that kind of performance from Sasha in the 2002 (her 2004 worlds performance) would have beaten Sarah's Olympic LP. Sarah just isn't that good and Sasha's LP would have looked so much better in comparison to the way Sarah skated.

I TOTALLY disagree with that. At Worlds 2004, Sasha's skating in the FS was so unispired and unispiring, especially when compared with her SP. Sarah had spirit and zip at SLC and she was the only one of the top skaters who did. Sarah had never skated as well as that before, and personally, I don't think she ever could again, even if she got her triples back.

Now if Sasha could do a FS like Sarah's, (and I mean the pizzazz, not the jumps) then I grant you, she would be close to unbeatable.

euterpe said:

Now if Sasha could do a FS like Sarah's, (and I mean the pizzazz, not the jumps) then I grant you, she would be close to unbeatable.

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Which she did in the quali round at Dortmund. That skate would have beaten Hughes, Kwan, and Slutskaya. Not that it matters, because she didn't skate that peformance in SLC.

hockeyfan228 said:

Which she did in the quali round at Dortmund. That skate would have beaten Hughes, Kwan, and Slutskaya. Not that it matters, because she didn't skate that peformance in SLC.

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ITA! It was special and I hope she gives it again in Moscow.

Joe

mzheng said:

All I know it's an embarassment to the sport for a Reigning OGM skated like that.

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Matter of difference of opinion

And a missleading to the young skaters who watched her SOI performance that doubles could lead to OGM.

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Really ?SH is purposely misleading the young skater? or are the young skaters out of touch with reality ? Young skaters and their coaches know very well that Sarah's performance at SLC won her an OGM. Young skaters should be given more credit for knowing the difference b/w an Olympic gold winning performance and a show performance. Coaches should be given more credit for setting goals for the young skaters re: jumps. Young skaters are very well grounded in reality when they compete in the sectionals and regionals and if they are good enough at nationals, they know what kind of technical content and jumps are required of them

How many members currently in this exclusive club? Peggy, Dorthy, Carol H., Witt, Kristi, Okasana, Tara, Sarah, and someone else? Hardly that exclusive!

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OK that is not an exclusive club, lets just call it a club, and membership requirement is an OGM, and many skaters including MK are still working their butt off for a shot at membership of this not so exclusive club

Michelle in a most exclusive club by her own with 5 worlds titles and 9 US titles among the 9 US titles she beaten the last two OGM several times. Who else can claim to be in this club?

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If by exclusive you mean no one else has the same record, then I agree, and I have a lot of respect for Kwan. So Heiss Jenkins is in a most exclusived club b/c of her 5 world titles, an olympic gold, and an olympic silver. Katarina Witt is in a most exclusive club b/c of her 2 olympic gold, and 4 world title. Jennifer Robinson is in a most exclusive club b/c she is the only Canadian lady skatter who won 6 Canadian national title I am glad I don't have to decide who has the most exclusivity

hockeyfan228 said:

Which she did in the quali round at Dortmund. That skate would have beaten Hughes, Kwan, and Slutskaya. Not that it matters, because she didn't skate that peformance in SLC.

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Arakawa's Dortmund free skate would have beaten Hughs, Kwan and Slutskaya, and Cohen's 04 QR , Under the 6.0 system Tara's Nagano free skate would have beaten Cohen's QR 04, Hughes, Kwan and Slute at SLC

gezando said:

Arakawa's Dortmund free skate would have beaten Hughs, Kwan and Slutskaya, and Cohen's 04 QR , Under the 6.0 system Tara's Nagano free skate would have beaten Cohen's QR 04, Hughes, Kwan and Slute at SLC

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Hopefully Arakawa's free skate would have beaten Hughes', Kwan's, and Slutskaya's SLC free skates, but given the way it was scored in Dortmund, with Cohen's crappy skate taking three first place ordinals before Kwan took over all three plus a fourth, it's hard to say what the ordinals would have looked like, since they were all over the place in SLC.

I doubt Arakawa's Dortmund free skate would have beaten Cohen's Dortmund QR, again because Cohen's relatively crappy free skate took three first place ordinals from Arakawa, and since Cohen's QR was far better than Kwan's FS, which took four first place ordinals from Arakawa, why would her far superior skate get fewer ordinals than Kwan's, and thus a majority? The fact that I think the ordinals given to Cohen and Kwan were a travesty doesn't make it any less likely that her superior QR skate Cohen would have beaten Arakawa's FS.

I doubt Lipinski's Nagano FS would have beaten Cohen's Dortmund QR, because Cohen projected outwardly, she was far more polished than Lipinski, she performed a classical program, which has weight with the judges, and her jumps were bigger by comparison. I'm not even sure Lipinski would have beaten Hughes, because Hughes' jumps were a lot bigger, and she skated with as much joy as Lipinski. I do think Lipinski would have beaten Kwan again as well as Slutskaya, as long as there wasn't ordinal soup that resulted in a strange decision.

hockeyfan228 said:

I doubt Lipinski's Nagano FS would have beaten Cohen's Dortmund QR, because Cohen projected outwardly, she was far more polished than Lipinski, she performed a classical program, which has weight with the judges, and her jumps were bigger by comparison. I'm not even sure Lipinski would have beaten Hughes, because Hughes' jumps were a lot bigger, and she skated with as much joy as Lipinski. I do think Lipinski would have beaten Kwan again as well as Slutskaya, as long as there wasn't ordinal soup that resulted in a strange decision.

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I think you forget that Lipinski beat a clean performance by Michelle, who was more polished, elegant, had better technique and skating skills than Tara. If I'm not mistaken Sasha only did 6 clean triples in her QR and MK actually did 7 and still didn't beat Tara, so I doubt Sasha would.

Yeah but Kwan has skated many performances as well that would have beaten Sarah that night and definately would at least allow her to hold on to second place.

bdreampixie said:

I think you forget that Lipinski beat a clean performance by Michelle, who was more polished, elegant, had better technique and skating skills than Tara. If I'm not mistaken Sasha only did 6 clean triples in her QR and MK actually did 7 and still didn't beat Tara, so I doubt Sasha would.

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The general reasoning behind Kwan losing to Lipinski at Nagano was that Kwan was tight and didn't project in her usual way, while Lipinski was free and energetic.

Cohen had a lot of energy and charisma in her Dortmund quali round, plus she had far superior spins, spirals, and footwork to boot, as well as a traditional, classical program. Regardless of the number of triples or 3/3's, I doubt Lipinski would have beaten Cohen with that skate. Cohen had the "look," the elegance, and the energy.

hockeyfan228 said:

The general reasoning behind Kwan losing to Lipinski at Nagano was that Kwan was tight and didn't project in her usual way, while Lipinski was free and energetic.

Cohen had a lot of energy and charisma in her Dortmund quali round, plus she had far superior spins, spirals, and footwork to boot, as well as a traditional, classical program. Regardless of the number of triples or 3/3's, I doubt Lipinski would have beaten Cohen with that skate. Cohen had the "look," the elegance, and the energy.

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Cohen has the "look", but Tara has the speed and is also very polished. Tara had very nice presentation but perhaps it was marred by her extremely juvenile physical look on the ice. However Tara had really powerful stroking plus a 3-3 combo and 3-3 sequence... it would be really close but I would have to give it to Tara. Tara had the look of a champion and skated like one as well. You can't say that about Sarah, Sasha nor Michelle. Tara was a true gem.


And no way would Sarah have ever beaten Tara. Sarah isn't even in Tara's league. Tara had a lot of pride in her skating and gave it her all even when she was a professional. It was only due to injury that Tara couldn't keep up her skills. It also says a lot about Tara that rather than continue to skate and only do half a$$ double jumps, she chose to leave skating behind. If Tara couldn't be the best skater, she didn't want to do it all. Tara was a perfectionist who paid attention to every detail. It was reported that she would spend hours in front of a mirror practicing skating positions. She had great posture and nice lines on the ice and did everything to the best of her ability. I think it was a huge loss to skating that Tara became injured. You could see the improvement she was making in presentation after her first year as a pro.

Sarah on the other hand, has NO pride in her skating. No skater with pride would skate in a show without adequate preparation. While she shouldn't be expected to have all the triple jumps, she should have at least one. And if she can't manage that, at least keep up her skating skills so there won't be reports on the net that her spirals are wobbly.

gezando said:

OK that is not an exclusive club, lets just call it a club, and membership requirement is an OGM, and many skaters including MK are still working their butt off for a shot at membership of this not so exclusive club

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With all respect to those still working their butt off for OGM, and stay on top of the sports, they are much better off than grab the gold then dissappares. MK just set the new perspective of OGM by not winning the OGM but had more fame than either of past three OGM. The contractry just make fans wondering OGM really a great skater? Hardly if you look at Sarah skated at SOI.

soogar said:

Sarah on the other hand, has NO pride in her skating. No skater with pride would skate in a show without adequate preparation. While she shouldn't be expected to have all the triple jumps, she should have at least one. And if she can't manage that, at least keep up her skating skills so there won't be reports on the net that her spirals are wobbly.

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Exactly.

The bottom line Sarah's skating in SOI will not help attract new fans to the sport.

I was attracted to FS by first watched Peggy's show skating. Back then in china that was the only Figure Skating program they aired. Late after came to the states I was addict to the pro competetion and show, back then they were all very high quality. It was not until 1995/1996 that I start pay attention to amature skating. The good quality show skating help attracting new skating fan, but not by Sarah's skating quality these days.

Here we go again! :sheesh:
I have always thought that the music is what made Tara win. Her joy didn't hurt either. She had upbeat music and Michelle didn't. The music that is picked really makes a big difference IMO. I think if Michelle would have picked something a little more upbeat she might have won. Who knows? Just what I think.