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Thread: New ISU rules for the upcoming season

  1. #321
    in Emergency Backup Mode karne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolyadafan2002 View Post
    Somebody earlier said no attempt before Mroz was serious:
    Look at this: https://youtu.be/ss8T7aGr9ZI
    Nowadays this would be clean with little negative GOE.
    He makes the rotation and only touches the other foot down slightly on landing.
    As far as I'm concerned this is the first 4Lz (of course it isnt due to it not being counted (was uncalled after 1 week of being the first clean)).
    Ah, a little like Krasnozhon having his quad loop attempt called rotated by an international tech panel at an ISU JGP and then a week later the ISU declaring it was not, because they wanted Hanyu to be first, not some lesser-known American Junior (as he was then).

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Ah, a little like Krasnozhon having his quad loop attempt called rotated by an international tech panel at an ISU JGP and then a week later the ISU declaring it was not, because they wanted Hanyu to be first, not some lesser-known American Junior (as he was then).
    This isn’t quite true. Krasnozhon’s 4Lo at JGP Ljubljana Cup 2016 was called rotated, but he stepped out of the landing. Hanyu would land a clean 4Lo a week later.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by eterialskater View Post
    I fall asleep watching these gliding entries into 3 Lutzes. I remember watching a Lu Chen program where she is literally gliding the entire rink just to land a lutz ditto a certain Olympic champion. No originality at all. As for the flip its clear most who cannot generate momentum will never be able to land a quad flip. Chen does his from a mohawk which is arguably easier and less aesthetic looking done a 3 turn entry like the one Trusova does. This is my preferred entry the mohawk looks weird honestly. Chan did beautiful 3-turns into his flips in the past. Loops have the most variety of entries but IMO it is the jump that requires the most momentum. If loops were so EASY why did 2 back to back Olympic Ladies Champion hell you can even add Hughes there, I don't think she even rotated a single triple, unable to land a single 3 loop. If you add the imaginary Sochi gold of Kim that would have been 4 consecutive Olympics without a single completely landed 3 loop. Tragic!
    Curious: do you feel the same about salchows that have an easier Mohawk entry than a 3-turn entry?

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolyadafan2002 View Post
    They didnt think through 4A. That's simple. They dont think anybody is going to land it soon, and dont want to encourage YOLO attempts. As soon as somebody does 4A, the next season it will have increased BV, and BV for quints will be added.
    I’m so sick of the complaints about the 4A scoring. The ISU should just make it 50 points base value to placate the people continually whining it’s not worth enough.

    And then they’ll complain it’s not worth 51.

  5. #325
    Tripping on the Podium eppen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolyadafan2002 View Post
    Brandon Mroz landed all quads par 4S in practice. He regularly did 4F, 4Lo and 4Lz in practice. However he wanted to be the first to land the most difficult quad of all, so kept going for 4Lz instead of 4F or 4Lo.
    Sorry to return to this so late, but was thinking of also Hanyu's motivation to do the 4Lo - I could well imagine he was training all quads back when the current quad madness began, but did he focus on the 4Lo because it was still "available" for the history books? Shoma had gotten the 4F in spring 2016, so he was in a hurry to get one for himself...

    E

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by eppen View Post
    Sorry to return to this so late, but was thinking of also Hanyu's motivation to do the 4Lo - I could well imagine he was training all quads back when the current quad madness began, but did he focus on the 4Lo because it was still "available" for the history books? Shoma had gotten the 4F in spring 2016, so he was in a hurry to get one for himself...

    E
    I also think that hanyu is a natural for the loop, like boyang for the lutz and Javier for the salchow. He wanted a harder quad to compete with those gaining on him (boyang, shoma) and he chose loop. His flip was going through edge trouble and lutz had a lean. However, landing the first 4Lo "successfully" (+'ve goe) might have been part of it.

    P.s I'm sick of people complaining about mohawk. Three turn gets more momentum into jumps, and the majority learn from three turn. Three turn into flip or salchow is much easier than mohawk for the majority of people. If you skate you generally recognise this. Some prefer mohawk, most prefer three turn. Accusing people who do from mohawk doing an easier jump is both untrue and also trying to put down certain skaters jumps.

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolyadafan2002 View Post
    I also think that hanyu is a natural for the loop, like boyang for the lutz and Javier for the salchow. He wanted a harder quad to compete with those gaining on him (boyang, shoma) and he chose loop. His flip was going through edge trouble and lutz had a lean. However, landing the first 4Lo "successfully" (+'ve goe) might have been part of it.

    P.s I'm sick of people complaining about mohawk. Three turn gets more momentum into jumps, and the majority learn from three turn. Three turn into flip or salchow is much easier than mohawk for the majority of people. If you skate you generally recognise this. Some prefer mohawk, most prefer three turn. Accusing people who do from mohawk doing an easier jump is both untrue and also trying to put down certain skaters jumps.
    For the salchow, hard to say; a three turn entry can lead to a very swingy salchow, whereas a mohawk entry, for me at least, is much easier to control. However, both entries work ok for me for a flip.

    Yuna Kim was one of the only top skaters I ever saw do a salchow from a three turn. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzxnl View Post
    For the salchow, hard to say; a three turn entry can lead to a very swingy salchow, whereas a mohawk entry, for me at least, is much easier to control. However, both entries work ok for me for a flip.

    Yuna Kim was one of the only top skaters I ever saw do a salchow from a three turn. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
    Hard to quantify as the majority of skaters either jumping 4S or salchow from the half loop. Most learn from three turn as easier due to momentum, then go for mohawk later as can do more steps in between or gain rhythm for quad.

    Konstantin Menshov was known for three turn 4S. So was max Aaron and Artur Gachinski
    Most 4S jumpers do from mohawk, but Tim Goebels and Min zhang always did three turn as did some older 4S jumpers. For triple solo, to see common entrances look back a few years at plushenko and yagudin (before half loop combos were counted as three jump combos, and plushenko did 3F off the axel). Also look to tonya harding and Midori Ito etc going very far back.

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolyadafan2002 View Post
    I also think that hanyu is a natural for the loop, like boyang for the lutz and Javier for the salchow. He wanted a harder quad to compete with those gaining on him (boyang, shoma) and he chose loop. His flip was going through edge trouble and lutz had a lean. However, landing the first 4Lo "successfully" (+'ve goe) might have been part of it.

    P.s I'm sick of people complaining about mohawk. Three turn gets more momentum into jumps, and the majority learn from three turn. Three turn into flip or salchow is much easier than mohawk for the majority of people. If you skate you generally recognise this. Some prefer mohawk, most prefer three turn. Accusing people who do from mohawk doing an easier jump is both untrue and also trying to put down certain skaters jumps.

    It is honestly a matter of preference. The tough part about a three turn is that you have to “check” your free leg before going up into the jump. However a Mohawk involving a step can compromise speed even if it can give you better control.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolyadafan2002 View Post
    P.s I'm sick of people complaining about mohawk. Three turn gets more momentum into jumps, and the majority learn from three turn. Three turn into flip or salchow is much easier than mohawk for the majority of people. If you skate you generally recognise this. Some prefer mohawk, most prefer three turn.
    The whole notion that one entry is generally easier/more difficult than another one is ridiculous, because it implies that some skaters choose to make it extra hard for themselves, and now, why would they do that? That's just illogical, since you don't gain anything by doing a 3-turn instead of a mohawk, there's simply no incentive (we're not talking about footwork into a jump or anything of the like, which can increase GOE and PCS). Any skater will choose the entry that works best for them and gives them the highest consistency.


    Quote Originally Posted by kolyadafan2002 View Post
    Accusing people who do from mohawk doing an easier jump is both untrue and also trying to put down certain skaters jumps.
    Obviously that's what's really behind any such claims...

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by eppen View Post
    Sorry to return to this so late, but was thinking of also Hanyu's motivation to do the 4Lo - I could well imagine he was training all quads back when the current quad madness began, but did he focus on the 4Lo because it was still "available" for the history books? Shoma had gotten the 4F in spring 2016, so he was in a hurry to get one for himself...

    E
    Agree!!!
    And Shoma should not have received anything. Probably Nathan Chen was the first to land a real flip (textbook and not excessively pre-rotated).
    As far as I know Boyang Jin has landed 4T, 4S and 4Lz.
    Yuzuru - 4T, 4S, 4Lo and 4Lz.
    Nathan - 4T, 4S, 4Lo, 4F and 4Lz.
    Mikhail - 4T and the best 4 Lz and...? Hm... Has he ever landed 4S?

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by NadezhdaNadya View Post
    Agree!!!
    And Shoma should not have received anything. Probably Nathan Chen was the first to land a real flip (textbook and not excessively pre-rotated).
    As far as I know Boyang Jin has landed 4T, 4S and 4Lz.
    Yuzuru - 4T, 4S, 4Lo and 4Lz.
    Nathan - 4T, 4S, 4Lo, 4F and 4Lz.
    Mikhail - 4T and the best 4 Lz and...? Hm... Has he ever landed 4S?
    No. Shoma landed the first quad flip. Period.

    If you're looking for textbook technique as the determinant as to whether somebody landed the "first" of something, then you're welcome to opine that. History and the skating world in general will say otherwise.

  13. #333
    Tripping on the Podium eppen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NadezhdaNadya View Post
    And Shoma should not have received anything. Probably Nathan Chen was the first to land a real flip (textbook and not excessively pre-rotated).
    As far as I know Boyang Jin has landed 4T, 4S and 4Lz.
    Yuzuru - 4T, 4S, 4Lo and 4Lz.
    Nathan - 4T, 4S, 4Lo, 4F and 4Lz.
    Mikhail - 4T and the best 4 Lz and...? Hm... Has he ever landed 4S?
    Most of the firsts in the quad history books would not receive positive GOEs in the current evaluation system, so we just have accept ISUs decisions on them, including Shoma's 4F.

    There are 7 guys who have tried 4 or 5 different quads

    Chen, Nathan: all but 4A, but 4Lo is theoretical with 2 tries in 2017-8 = has 4T, 4S, 4F, 4Lz
    Hanyu, Yuzuru: all but 4F and 4A, all with positive GOE in 19-20 (4Lz with 3 tries ever, so a bit iffy) = has 4T, 4S, 4Lo, 4Lz?
    Samarin, Alexander: all but 4S and 4A, but 4Lo only once with negative GOE = has 4T, 4F, 4Lz
    Uno, Shoma: all but 4Lz and 4A, but 4Lo last time 2017-8 = has 4T, 4S, 4F
    Zhou, Vincent: all but 4Lo and 4A, but 4F last time 2018-9 = has 4T, 4S, 4Lz
    Jin, Boyang: all but 4F and 4A, but 4Lo only once in 2016-7 and 4S last time 2017-8 = has 4T, 4Lz
    Krasnozhon, Alex: all but 4Lz and 4A, but only one jump ever with positive GOE = has no quads

    Further 12 have tried 3 different ones

    Grassl, Daniel: has 4T, 4S, 4Lo with postive GOEs in 2019-20

    Siao Him Fa, Adam: 4T and 4S ok for 2019-20, 4Lz? with only 2 tries and 1 positive GOE
    Lazukin, Andrei: 4T and 4Lz in 2019-20
    Reynolds, Kevin: 4T and 4S, 4Lo with no positive GOEs ever
    Samohin, Daniel: 4T and 4S in 2019-20
    Gogolev, Stephen: only 4S in 2019-20
    Kolyada, Mikhail: only 4T in 2018-9
    Sato, Shun: 4T, others with one try only
    Rippon, Adam: only 1 good 4T ever, had no quads
    Shulepov, Anton: no successful tries, has no quads

    So they might try many and then settle for maintaining one or two less. Chen is the only one who does 4 different ones regularly, 5 others have 3 in their pocket.

    And for those who wanna slap me for not counting Hanyu's 4Lz in this - he has done it in competition 3 times in as many seasons and although 2/3 of the tries have been good, it is really a rare guest star and not a regular member of the cast. The same applies for Kolyada's 4Lz which was not there really ever - 2 good jumps out of 18 tries and the last time it was seen was 2017-8. Larry Loupolover has the same try/success rate with 4Lz as Kolyada btw.

    E

  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by NadezhdaNadya View Post
    Agree!!!
    And Shoma should not have received anything. Probably Nathan Chen was the first to land a real flip (textbook and not excessively pre-rotated).
    As far as I know Boyang Jin has landed 4T, 4S and 4Lz.
    Yuzuru - 4T, 4S, 4Lo and 4Lz.
    Nathan - 4T, 4S, 4Lo, 4F and 4Lz.
    Mikhail - 4T and the best 4 Lz and...? Hm... Has he ever landed 4S?
    He has landed 4S in one competition, but that's it

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