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Thread: New ISU rules for the upcoming season

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamV426 View Post
    Might already have been said but can anyone explain why the point difference between a 3Lz/3F and a 3A is 2.70 while the difference between a 4Lz/4F/4Lo and a 4A is 1.50?

    The lack of logic here.
    They didnt think through 4A. That's simple. They dont think anybody is going to land it soon, and dont want to encourage YOLO attempts. As soon as somebody does 4A, the next season it will have increased BV, and BV for quints will be added.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolyadafan2002 View Post
    Adam rippons attempts were serious. So was Plushenkos. So was Micheal Weiss. They were all very close.
    And let's look at some of the quad "lutzes"
    - dmitri aliev, half prerotation, blade assist.
    - alexander samarin - half prerotation, blade assist, weak edge.
    - stephen gogolev - weak edge, half prerotation.
    - daniel Grassl - weak edge half prerotation, blade assist.
    - larry loupolover - blade assist, half prerotation.

    The real 4Lz:
    hanyu (dodgy lean and less success than 4Lo).
    Chen (less success than 4F, hard landing).
    Boyang (natural lutz jumper, doesnt jump flip or loop quad).
    Mikhail Kolyada (lander 3 4Lz out of how many?)
    Keegan messing (1/5 landed?)

    A proper quad lutz is very rare. Just like a proper quad flip. With a loop it's harder to cheat, hence why less "improper successes".
    The new rule should in theory give the proper 4Lz more GOE. Will it? Probably not. But we'll see.
    I don't like to bother with conspiracy fanatics that use imaginary terms like blade assist as if its possible to even land a toepick jump that way but I'll make an exception. Most skaters can land either a flip or lutz. It really is just a preference. Which top skaters cannot land either one of those jumps?? No one. Everyone has a strong preference for a jump one way or the other. It's amazing how all of a sudden there is this new blade assists BS that I didn't even hear before Pyeongchang Olympics. It's like every single self professed amateur judge is an expert. Not even in Sochi did I even hear any of these nonsense to justify gifting it to Yuna. Now they can see Trusova and Kostornaya(this year) have flawless edges. They have to think of something else.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by eterialskater View Post
    There was really no need to inflate the 4 Lutz attempts that came before Mroz. Who really think those attempts where even serious?
    I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks Plushenko's attempt wasn't serious needs a serious reality check. He attempted it in the Olympic season while he was searching everywhere for the ultimate weapon that would make sure he could beat Yagudin. Even American commentators verified that he landed several in the official practice for the event where he attempted it, it is credited rotated and he wouldn't even put his hand down as he came down in competition, fighting to land it. That was a serious attempt. The only reason he stopped after that event is because he recognised the wear and tear it was putting on his body and ultimately, to beat Yagudin he knew he had to be fit and healthy, and the quad Lutz would mean nothing if he couldn't do everything else. After the Olympics, Yagudin retired, and so Plushenko no longer needed it. But if he'd thought he could do it without breaking himself, I've no doubt he'd have pursued it until he landed it.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheetz View Post
    I do think there has been an element of prestige associated with landing a 4Lz, especially in Russia, where the men are often pressured to attempt harder jumps than they are capable of landing consistently. What else can explain Kolyada's continuing attempts at the jump despite his abysmally low success rate?
    I would assume the old SoV and rules back then? When the 4Lz had a BV higher by 1,3 points than the 4F and 1,6 more than the 4Lo. And when a fall on a quad didn't cost a skater as many points. Which led to all those so-called "planned quad falls". Or let's call it a sort of willingness to take your chances. If you're gonna attempt a higher level quad, that you have a low likelihood of landing successfully anyway, make it the one with the highest BV, right?

    In addition to that, in Mikhail's case I believe his 3Lo isn't a very comfortable jump for him? So he might have felt more confident attempting a 4Lz in general.
    Mikhail's Lutz looks unstable to me in a similar fashion as Yuzuru's. He also has a tendency to fall out of axis. But unlike Yuzuru, instead of leaning forwards too much, he does the opposite and is tipping over backwards. Both of them sometimes end up with a sideways lean as well. They can both save most of their 3Lzs when any of that happens though, but with the added revolution in a quad, an axis that's already gone awry has more time to spiral out of control, making it impossible to save the landing.
    But Yuzuru had a strong Loop, that he could go for instead of the 4Lz, Mikhail didn't have that option.


    I actually think these special circumstances (the old 4Lz BV being so much higher in combination with the planned falls strategy) may be skewing the 4Lo vs 4F vs 4Lz number of attempts statistics quite a bit. It would be better to make a cut after the 17/18 season and have a separate count.

  5. #305
    The Notorious SEW ancientpeas's Avatar
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    I do not skate but I guess I always thought the jumps in order of difficulty were:
    Toe
    Salcow
    Loop
    Flip
    Lutz
    Axel

    Is the ISU now saying that it is
    Toe
    Salcow
    Loop/Flip/Lutz
    Axel
    If it is a quad jump but not if it's a triple?

  6. #306
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    I’m done!

    I did this by hand as skating scores is nowhere near accurate. For example, the site only has Loupolover’s 4Lz attempts at Euros this year and he’s been attempting the jump since 2016. And again, I did NOT include domestic competitions (i.e, Nationals). International competitions only from 1998 to present. Any corrections are more than welcome.

    Landed 4Lo: Hanyu (13/22)* Grassl (7/14), Uno (5/10), Chen (1/1), Krasnozhon (1/13)
    Attempted: Reynolds (4), Rizzo (4), Voronov (2), Samohin (1), Gorshkov (1), Jin (1), Roman Serov (1)*
    Attempts: 74*
    Landed: 27

    Hanyu, Grassl, and Uno are representing here. Grassl actually has a pretty good handle on the jump. He’s landed half his attempts (already surpassed Uno) and came very close to landing a 4Lo+3T in the SP at Euros.

    Landed 4F: Uno (26/52), Chen (25/39), Zhou (3/11), Yaroslav Paniot (2/6), Samarin (2/10), Trusova (1/1), Grassl (1/4).
    Attempted: Krasnozhon (6), Takahashi (3), Scherbakova (2), Junhwan Cha (2), Artur Dimitriev (1)
    Attempts: 137
    Landed: 60

    Whoa. 51/60 were landed by Chen and Uno. There was a drop-off after the 2017-2018 season as Uno started getting slammed with URs and Zhou (also slammed) removed it from his layouts.

    Landed 4Lz: Jin (28/49)*, Chen (23/33), Samarin (15/29), Zhou (12/35)*, Aliev (7/16)*, Trusova (6/11), Scherbakova (5/13), Grassl (5/21), Hanyu (2/3), Alysa Liu (2/5), Lazukin (2/7), Kolyada (2/18), Sato (1/2)*, Adam Siao Him Fa (1/2), Mroz (1/3), Gogolev (1/4),* Loupolover (1/8).

    Attempted: Adam Rippon (19)*, Gumennik (5), Keegan Messing (3), Samsonov (3), Michael Weiss (1), Plushenko (1), Vladiskav Sergonov (1), Anton Shulepov (1)

    Attempts: 290*
    Landed: 113

    51/113 landed by Chen and Jin. Huge explosion with planned falls after Boyang Jin landed the first 4Lz+3T. I mean, he scored a lot of points with that monster. So skaters want to repeat that feat but it’s like they’re just trying to get lucky. Which is why a good chunk were landed by two dudes.

    Thoughts: Chen and Grassl are unicorns. There’s only 2-3 skaters that know what they’re doing with each jump. With the new rules, I think the 4F will just about disappear and skaters that want to go beyond a 4T and 4S will opt to go for the 4Lo instead. Out of the 12 skaters that attempted a 4Lo, five have landed the jump and it also seems to have the highest consistency rate among the men that landed it. (Chen’s a “one and done” but there’s no doubt in my mind that he’ll be consistent with the jump if he ever brings it back.) The struggle seems to be very real for only Krasnozhon, but the 3A is his best jump so it checks that he struggles so much with quads. The 4Lz is the most attempted of the three and so it’s also the jump with the most failures. Because of the rules after the 2017-2018 season and now the lower BV, we’re not going to see something like Kolyada and Rippon’s repeated failed attempts again. Kolyada dropped the jump in 2018-2019 and Gumennik also dropped it after his failed attempts this season. But planned falls certainly aren’t going to go anywhere. There’s a certain prestige that comes with landing the jump. Bragging rights. The asinine decrease of its base value despite the difficulty won’t change that.

    *Includes known pops (yet another issue with skating scores).

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolyadafan2002 View Post
    The real 4Lz:
    hanyu (dodgy lean and less success than 4Lo).
    Chen (less success than 4F, hard landing).
    Boyang (natural lutz jumper, doesnt jump flip or loop quad).
    Mikhail Kolyada (lander 3 4Lz out of how many?)
    Keegan messing (1/5 landed?)
    Boyang also has hard landings on his 4Lz, possibly because of that insane height that he achieves on it. I always wonder if he needs the height to complete the rotation in the air? Just out of curiosity, I would love to see him try ones with less height, and see how that affects the rotation and the quality of his landings.

    Makes you wonder though, if Boyang has such a strong Lutz, and with Flip and Lutz being similar in that they both use a picking technique, why he has been working on and attempting a 4Lo in comp, instead of 4F? A jump that requires an entirely different technique and had a slightly lower BV than 4F?
    (his 3F is ok and even though I've only looked at maybe 3-4 old protocols, he didn't receive any edge or ! calls in any of those)

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by eterialskater View Post
    Among those 3 quads the Lutz is easier because it is a naturally stalk jump and the skater actually has time to glide before deciding when to jump. In the quad flip the skater must be able to generate speed from the 3 turn. Triple flips can be landed with little to no speed so a proper 3 turn is not needed. I see a a lot of skaters who have atrocious 3 turns before their flips. In quads it must be on point to successfully land them. I honestly think quad flips would be easier landed than quad lutz if it also uses the same glide entrance. Essentially doing a flutz. As for the quad loops they require impeccable timing and strong hips for them to be landed.
    My coach always says the exact opposite. That you can take your time on a flip and really "savour" that BI edge before picking in (I assume he's referring to a 3-turn entry, because Mohawk entries on Flips are usually quicker), but you need to be really quick on a Lutz, because picking in at the right moment is crucial on a Lutz to prevent Flutzing and achieve actual (visible) counter-rotation.
    (and personally I can confirm what he says, albeit not for triples or quads )

    And actually, out of all the jumps, the Loop is the one I would describe as the most "stalled" (when done from a Mohawk). So by your logic, that makes it the easiest jump, right?
    As for requiring good timing, I always felt the Salchow is generally the most notorious jump when timing is concerned, because it has a very specific rhythm to it.

    Besides, I don't think what you're describing is necessarily a criterion for difficulty anyways. Especially since there's usually several take-off techniques that can be modified somewhat in terms of timing and rhythm and to the skater's liking.
    (also: I believe most male skaters jump their 4Fs and 3Fs from a Mohawk, not a 3-turn)

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by frida80 View Post
    The poster is only looking at the seasons between 1998 and 2017.
    Oh well that’s weird... because Uno landed 4Lo at 2017 4CC, 2017 WC, 2017 WTT, 2017 GPFra, 2017GPCan. I guess they’re discounting the 2017 competitions in the 2017-2018 season for some reason?

    Nevertheless that’s pretty great consistency in a short period.

    Has any skater landed that many clean quad loops in competition in a calendar year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Oh well that’s weird... because Uno landed 4Lo at 2017 4CC, 2017 WC, 2017 WTT, 2017 GPFra, 2017GPCan. I guess they’re discounting the 2017 competitions in the 2017-2018 season for some reason?

    Nevertheless that’s pretty great consistency in a short period.

    Has any skater landed that many clean quad loops in competition in a calendar year?
    I think the poster wants to look at 20 seasons. So maybe 1997-1998 to 2016-2017.

    Also I don’t think anyone has had that consistency with the 4Lo like Shoma has. He took to it like a fish to water.

    Edit: Just checked. Daniel landed it 5 times during 2019, that was out of 9 attempts. In 2017 Shoma landed 5 of 7 attempts.

  11. #311
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    Hanyu landed five in 2017 too. I guess five is the lucky number. To be honest, I think Grassl may end up being the most consistent with the 4Lo. He lands it most of the time; I think he’s fallen on it only once in 14 attempts. His problem is getting the rotation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1111bm View Post
    My coach always says the exact opposite. That you can take your time on a flip and really "savour" that BI edge before picking in (I assume he's referring to a 3-turn entry, because Mohawk entries on Flips are usually quicker), but you need to be really quick on a Lutz, because picking in at the right moment is crucial on a Lutz to prevent Flutzing and achieve actual (visible) counter-rotation.
    (and personally I can confirm what he says, albeit not for triples or quads )

    And actually, out of all the jumps, the Loop is the one I would describe as the most "stalled" (when done from a Mohawk). So by your logic, that makes it the easiest jump, right?
    As for requiring good timing, I always felt the Salchow is generally the most notorious jump when timing is concerned, because it has a very specific rhythm to it.

    Besides, I don't think what you're describing is necessarily a criterion for difficulty anyways. Especially since there's usually several take-off techniques that can be modified somewhat in terms of timing and rhythm and to the skater's liking.
    (also: I believe most male skaters jump their 4Fs and 3Fs from a Mohawk, not a 3-turn)
    I fall asleep watching these gliding entries into 3 Lutzes. I remember watching a Lu Chen program where she is literally gliding the entire rink just to land a lutz ditto a certain Olympic champion. No originality at all. As for the flip its clear most who cannot generate momentum will never be able to land a quad flip. Chen does his from a mohawk which is arguably easier and less aesthetic looking done a 3 turn entry like the one Trusova does. This is my preferred entry the mohawk looks weird honestly. Chan did beautiful 3-turns into his flips in the past. Loops have the most variety of entries but IMO it is the jump that requires the most momentum. If loops were so EASY why did 2 back to back Olympic Ladies Champion hell you can even add Hughes there, I don't think she even rotated a single triple, unable to land a single 3 loop. If you add the imaginary Sochi gold of Kim that would have been 4 consecutive Olympics without a single completely landed 3 loop. Tragic!

  13. #313
    Tripping on the Podium eppen's Avatar
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    The resources for studying FS statistics in the internet are plenty, but it is often difficult to find one that would really answer all your questions. Skating Scores has too little data for too short a period. Rink Results is massive, goes back very far in time, but can be slightly cumbersome to use depending on what you wanna know.

    This spring in another thread the quadsters were discussed and collected. I did the data collection aided by a lot of people, but the most important resource was this Japanese website: http://fses.sakuraweb.com/

    Some of it is in Japanese, but the significant bits are in English/using Latin alphabet and it is super easy to use. Also, very accurate (well, there are some cases on weird translitteration of particularly Russian names, but that is a minor problem) and goes back to right at the beginning of IJS covering international competitions and Japanese nationals. Some junior competitions are not included however, but you might find more of the nationals and juniors data in Rink Results. This is so far the best place to study elements because you can search per element and get a listing by skater or by element, by season etc.

    Eg Sakura search for 4Lz in men and women lists 286 jumps for men and 29 for women.

    In 2017 (calendar year, not season!) Shoma did 5 4Lo in the spring and 5 in the fall (plus one in the Japanese nats). This actually covers 10 of his 13 international attempts at that jump, has not done one since 2018 Worlds. Grassl did 9 4Lo in 2019 (again, calendar year) and his total is 16. Hanyu did 8 in the fall of 2016 and 5 in the spring of 2017, so that 13 in one season does beat Shoma's 11 in a calendar year in quantity. Plus it is also more than half of all of Hanyu's attempts (22 in all).

    22 guys have attempted 4Lz, 12 4F and 16 4Lo - compared to 101 guys attempting 4S and 224 doing the same with 4T. Most of the Lz, Lo, and F jumpers have been active in the 2010s or in fact are active now indicating that there were few skaters who even dared to try/dream beyond 4T/4S back in the day. But that the 4Lz was tried much earlier than the other two is perhaps an indication of sth? There were no direct points incentive for Weiss or Mroz or even Plushenko - it came more naturally to them than 4F or 4Lo?

    The list I made a few months ago contains the names of every male figure who has done quads: 271 names for some 50 years. The list is available here as a simple spreadsheet. The IJS period should be fairly accurate because a lot of the protocols can still be found or have been collected to Rink Results (incl many nationals, juniors). For the 6.0 there is less accurate data of course. Some attempts can be verified by videos etc., but some have been included based on recollections, media reports, etc. For the ladies, the list is still so short that the data is relatively easily managed...

    E

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by eppen View Post
    22 guys have attempted 4Lz, 12 4F and 16 4Lo - compared to 101 guys attempting 4S and 224 doing the same with 4T. Most of the Lz, Lo, and F jumpers have been active in the 2010s or in fact are active now indicating that there were few skaters who even dared to try/dream beyond 4T/4S back in the day. But that the 4Lz was tried much earlier than the other two is perhaps an indication of sth? There were no direct points incentive for Weiss or Mroz or even Plushenko - it came more naturally to them than 4F or 4Lo?
    E
    Brandon Mroz landed all quads par 4S in practice. He regularly did 4F, 4Lo and 4Lz in practice. However he wanted to be the first to land the most difficult quad of all, so kept going for 4Lz instead of 4F or 4Lo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eterialskater View Post
    I fall asleep watching these gliding entries into 3 Lutzes. I remember watching a Lu Chen program where she is literally gliding the entire rink just to land a lutz ditto a certain Olympic champion. No originality at all. As for the flip its clear most who cannot generate momentum will never be able to land a quad flip. Chen does his from a mohawk which is arguably easier and less aesthetic looking done a 3 turn entry like the one Trusova does. This is my preferred entry the mohawk looks weird honestly. Chan did beautiful 3-turns into his flips in the past. Loops have the most variety of entries but IMO it is the jump that requires the most momentum.
    I'm not following. Your prior argument was, that a long glide and a more "stalled" entrance supposedly makes a jump easier, but now you're suddenly claiming the opposite (the way Nathan does his Mohawk entry into his Flip it's very quick, unlike most 3-turn entries).

    Also not sure what you mean by momentum.

    Also, what looks more or less aesthetic or weird and what puts one to sleep is not a factor in difficulty, so not sure why you're mentioning it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1111bm View Post
    I'm not following. Your prior argument was, that a long glide and a more "stalled" entrance supposedly makes a jump easier, but now you're suddenly claiming the opposite (the way Nathan does his Mohawk entry into his Flip it's very quick, unlike most 3-turn entries).

    Also not sure what you mean by momentum.

    Also, what looks more or less aesthetic or weird and what puts one to sleep is not a factor in difficulty, so not sure why you're mentioning it.
    It's like talking to a wall. Your obviously the one who is so invested in the idea that somehow lutz are so much more difficult than flips. Maybe if the many skaters who prefer lutz jumps start to cut back on that ridiculous long setups then I may agree that it becomes more difficult. I remember Asada's triple flutz was a much better jump than her triple flip because of better preparation. It had good air position and fully rotated unlike her flip which had a very poor entry. And please stop twisting my words, a proper flip from a 3 turn should always be pick right after the turn not riding the edge before picking. The ones doing this should really be deducted GOE's. I haven't heard you addressed though why self-proclaimed 2-time Olympic Champion and Arakawa couldn't land a single 3 loop when they were literally landing 3 triple lutzes in their LP's. Shouldn't this 2 Lutz Queens should have been able to land at least one measly 3-Loop since it's so much easier than a Lutz. What happen in reality was Arakawa purposely popped her loop jump and as for Kim, she didn't even had the decency to include it in any of her programs across 2 Olympics. So much for an easy jump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eterialskater View Post
    It's like talking to a wall. Your obviously the one who is so invested in the idea that somehow lutz are so much more difficult than flips.
    Seriously, if you don't see the irony in your statement...

    Also, please, show me where exactly in any of my replies to you, did I state with certainty, that any jump is "so much more difficult" than another one, let alone exhibit what you call strong "investment" in that idea. Because I'm really curious where you got that idea from.

    I believe that in all my posts in this thread, I tried to make sure to speak mostly in hypotheticals without taking a firm stance. And that no matter what, there's always gonna be a strong subjective component in what's considered difficult and how ultimately it will depend on the personal preferences of each skater.


    Quote Originally Posted by eterialskater View Post
    I remember Asada's triple flutz was a much better jump than her triple flip because of better preparation. It had good air position and fully rotated unlike her flip which had a very poor entry.
    I'm afraid you'd have to provide some data first to demonstrate that her Flip was in fact noticeably inferior to her Flutz, because I've never followed Mao much, but from what I've seen I don't recall her having issues with her Flip.

    But even if we assume, that Mao did struggle more with her Flip compared to her Flutz, blaming this on the shorter preparation time of her Flip (which didn't really look that much shorter tbh) is just an assumption on your part. There's many other possible factors that could be responsible for that. And further, whatever the reason is, doesn't mean it has to be true for a majority of skaters.


    And actually, I could just as well take your whole reasoning and reverse it: I could claim that the fact, that the Lutz has a seemingly longer preparation time/longer glide is actually proof of its difficulty. That you can't do it faster precisely because it's so difficult. And that you don't need to take this much time for the other jumps, because they're easier. So really, the argument can go both ways and it proves nothing, they're just conjectures based on observations.

  18. #318
    Bona Fide Member Shayuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eterialskater View Post
    It's like talking to a wall. Your obviously the one who is so invested in the idea that somehow lutz are so much more difficult than flips. Maybe if the many skaters who prefer lutz jumps start to cut back on that ridiculous long setups then I may agree that it becomes more difficult. I remember Asada's triple flutz was a much better jump than her triple flip because of better preparation. It had good air position and fully rotated unlike her flip which had a very poor entry. And please stop twisting my words, a proper flip from a 3 turn should always be pick right after the turn not riding the edge before picking. The ones doing this should really be deducted GOE's. I haven't heard you addressed though why self-proclaimed 2-time Olympic Champion and Arakawa couldn't land a single 3 loop when they were literally landing 3 triple lutzes in their LP's. Shouldn't this 2 Lutz Queens should have been able to land at least one measly 3-Loop since it's so much easier than a Lutz. What happen in reality was Arakawa purposely popped her loop jump and as for Kim, she didn't even had the decency to include it in any of her programs across 2 Olympics. So much for an easy jump.
    As far as I'm concerned, Lutz - the most beautiful jump in figure skating - is a much more beautiful jump when performed correctly than Flip, which is clearly the ugliest jump in existence. For that alone, it's very sad that Lutz's worth less in points than a Flip is. Furthermore, when it comes to pure physics, Lutz clearly is the more demanding jump based on momentum alone, as the Flip takeoff helps the skater's rotation whereas a Lutz fights against that.

    I'd say that the main reason so many skaters have a better Lutz than Flip is because they've practiced it so much more, because it's been so important. Now we'll just see skaters not even care and just spam ugly jumps. I imagine we're going to be seeing far fewer Lutz jumps in the future, which truly is a travesty. All they had to do is enforce accurate judging instead of making base value changes that aren't welcome at all.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayuki View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, Lutz - the most beautiful jump in figure skating
    No no no, the most beautiful is a perfectly done delayed single axel. But sheer beauty doesn't have anything to do with difficulty or complexity or BV.

    (I do not expect anyone to agree with either of these statements, of course )

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    Somebody earlier said no attempt before Mroz was serious:
    Look at this: https://youtu.be/ss8T7aGr9ZI
    Nowadays this would be clean with little negative GOE.
    He makes the rotation and only touches the other foot down slightly on landing.
    As far as I'm concerned this is the first 4Lz (of course it isnt due to it not being counted (was uncalled after 1 week of being the first clean)).

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