New ISU rules for the upcoming season
- Thread starter Lunalovesskating
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2017
She should not receive a bullet for lenght and height though. Her jumps are small and do not have much distance. They are pretty much a dead end.
Nor she should receive a bullet for effortless throughout with her excessive pre-rotation. What is so effortless about that?
her 4lz has very good lengh and good hight and a lot of speed. IMO she deserves that bullet point. But I agree with you she should get punished for take off with -3. depending if you give efortless or not its still 0 or +1.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
I would not give the effortless bullet due to the fact that she windmills her arms with her upper body bent almost parallel to the ice to generate the rotation. But the quad lutz definitely gets the height and distance bullet. Her triple combos, not so much (specifically distance in the combos)
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
What you are calling a "floop" also takes off on one leg - the last leg that leaves the ice, which in this case is the right foot for the counterclockwise majority. No jumps take off on both legs. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
That goes without saying.
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2019
I agree no jump is meant to take off two feet.
But point of observation some younger skaters get bad technique for double toe jumps where they almost take off from two feet. Dont see it with senior skaters as almost impossible to get momentum and height for triples.
Just making interesting post unrelated to conversation just because people might be curious.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I agree. Next year she will face the same judges that gave her 4Lz combination +3s across the board at Grad Prix Final and Europeans. I do not think that the new rules will make any difference.
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2019
I'm not addressing you in particular, since you're not the first talkig about "the fans".
Do you really think ISU listen to the fans?
I would look more on federations politic.
I think (may be wrong) that ISU don't care about the fans opinion so much.
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2017
Alexia's lutz is the most underrated jump of all time imo. Love it.
Again, it's just my opinion and I base it a little on my own experience as a skater. If I mistime the loop, it dies instantly, when I mistime the lutz somehow, I can still muscle it through by force. Works for me like that
All jumps take off from one leg, though.After all, it's not like you push yourself off your skating leg on toe jumps, you just travel across the ice on it and then use the picking leg to vault yourself up, so the upwards force comes entirely from that picking leg.
Also, by your logic, Salchow would be considered more difficult as Flip and Lutz as well, since it's also an edge jump that takes of 'purely' from one leg (going by your definition of 'one leg').
For what it's worth, when I first checked out the base values for the different jumps (ranging from singles to quads), I always assumed the order was based on the amount of rotation each jump has in the air. The more rotation has to be completed in the air, the higher the BV of a jump.
Single Toe and Sal by the very nature of their take-offs usually end up having about 180° in the air, it can be more, depending on your technique. Flip and Lutz ideally would have closer to 360° (Lutz having even higher BV because of the added difficulty of its counter-rotation). The Loop is kinda in-between, since its take-off is somewhat pre-rotated similar to the Sal, but less so.
All of this was just based on my observations of these jumps and also my own experience when learning them.
Of course, that was before I saw people pre-rotate their Flips and Lutzes by so much, that they pretty much contradicted all of my assumptions (on the other side, there's also a few skaters who manage to pre-rotate their Toes by so little, that they actually manage to take off more or less backwards, so there's the other extreme as well).
This is also the reason why I always felt pre-rotation on Flip and Lutz should be penalised, because I always felt like it doesn't deserve the higher BV (which in my mind was a reward for more rotation completed in the air).
Well, essentially yes, however the toe-assisted jumps are - as their name says - assisted by the toe while edge jumps are half-assisted with the free leg. And while it's not encouraged to propel yourself into air with both legs performing lutz or flip this is what the quad teenagers are doing by turning lutz/flip into a floopz they push themselves of ice with both legs, making it much easier to achieve good height and the toe or rather full-blade assist allows them to pre-rotate a lot to make the rotation. I mean, I wonder why Aleksandra, whom I honestly admire, has so much trouble with 4Sal since she grew and doesn't even try the 4Lo. I think it's because those jumps can't be cheated. And I think this problem is not only in ladies, Aliev's and Zhou's 4Lz are the same, so why Yuzuru or Daniel Grassl should get less points for their 4Lo than Aliev for his prerotated 4Lz? That's why I consider it a good idea, UNLESS the judges are willing to penalize prerotation. Then leave the BV alone and it's fine by me.
However, this is just my opinion
based on various facts from say last 5 years of following figure skating closely. You're right, I forgot Krasnozhon
As for Nathan, I just remembered his words from an after competition conference quite some time ago, I believe it could be more than a year ago. Maybe he got it more stable so it would make sense to bring it back Nathan is a very gifted jumper so I wouldn't be surprised - Joined
- Dec 22, 2017
How lovely!
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2019
You underestimate Japanese fan base. Russia has become increasingly less engaged in skating and Japan increasingly more.
How so? Didn't they start to sell tickets for test skate?
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2019
Test skates are very important to see who goes to internationals.
Anyways I digress. Lets take A different skater e.g Jason Brown.
If everybody was a jason brown fan they would want ISU to value quads much lower. It would be bad for ISU just to listen to them.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2014
As I said many times already - Anna rotates a big part of her lutz on the ice and not in the air (the way it should be). So, yes, her lutz GOE should be -3 because of her excessive lutz pre-rotation.
Unlike her, Paganini has minimal lutz pre-rotation and perfect ouside edge. Go Alexia!!!
Edit: Honestly, I will be enraged If Shcherbakova does not receive -3 GOE on her lutz! She is the most perfect example of excessive pre-rotation!!!
Its not possible to recieve -3 GOE just because your take off is not good/perfect. Final negative GOE is given for very bad landings, or if a jump has multiple big mistakes as visible underotation and wrong edge at the same time for example. Poor take off or whatever you wanna call it was never considered as that big mistake from the time figure skating exists, unless you start to jump complitely facing forward (as in axel jump) in which case that jump is downgraded. Jump with 'not good take off' can 'easily' get +3 GOE if other parts of the jump as trajectory of the jump (air time) and landing are very good and jump is connected with the programme, through the music and skating patterns. If you are basing your decision only on what is not good about the jump, that simply means you are not a good judge
I would think, that you could jump a cheated two-footed Salchow or Loop just as well. The free leg is right there, touching the ice on a loop. So much so, that non-skating casual viewers often think it is actually jumped off two legs, because they're not aware that there's no weight on it.
Same with the Salchow. Depending on a skater's technique, the free leg will often brush the ice to a certain extent, and that can be a lot with some skaters.
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2019
You can definitely muscle the 3Lo so its virtually off two feet (though inevitably one leg will leave the ice first, the power can come from two feet pressing into the ice.)
Salchow I have seen people dig the blade heavily in the ice. Whilst I'm a puratin with technique and dont think salchow was meant to have 2 blades on the ice, I dont believe they use this leg to help them jump higher, but rather to keep their weight centered and more stable.
The most common way of cheating 3Lo is to curve it. This means you rotate 180degrees with a full blades rather than 90 degrees on the blade before launching off the toepick living the "tick" ice mark. The idea is that you are in the air at 180 degrees with the tick mark on the ice, rather than curving and then starting to takeoff like an axel which doesnt have a tick.
Salchow is less commonly cheated, though I'm sure it's possible but I havent studied salchow technique in depth.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
There is one million ways of talking so you don't need to break it word by word and explain what you say.
I feel first half of your post basically says that hanyu does not have the capability of wining if the judges do not uphold him. And, the second half warns anyone that is against you to not reply.
Though I stand by my first post, I don't expect you to agree. That's my perception of your post which is obviously is different from what you have in your mind. I read your sentences in a way you did not intend to be read. I think it is your own wording that paves the way for misunderstanding but I apologize for jumping into conclusion.
I feel first half of your post basically says that hanyu does not have the capability of wining if the judges do not uphold him. And, the second half warns anyone that is against you to not reply.
Though I stand by my first post, I don't expect you to agree. That's my perception of your post which is obviously is different from what you have in your mind. I read your sentences in a way you did not intend to be read. I think it is your own wording that paves the way for misunderstanding but I apologize for jumping into conclusion.
Oh absolutely, when I was trying out different approaches to a Salchow take-off, I noticed exactly what you said, that scraping the ice with my free foot is a nice way to stabilise and center myself. But there was no temptation to use it to somehow push myself off two legs. Out of curiosity, I should try it sometime, though.
Oh well, once we're allowed back on the ice, I guess...
