2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

zounger · Jul 2, 2020

Fluture said:
That‘s all. As for the reasons - who knows? Might have just been to show confidence.

Ultimately we can‘t know and it‘s not as important anyway. But I don‘t see any “biased non-existing“ stories here, sorry.

This should be addressed to Tolstoj who see some kind of plan/agenda Tutberidze is pushing and ISU is following. Tutberidze is nothing compared to what ISU can do or RusFed. Personally for me was just a show off as Medvedeva herself says here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRlZWWc9AXA (if i can do more why not) which was under the knowledge of Tutberidze?(maybe), she was surprised though. It was stopped because RusFed didn't like it, rightfully so.

Fluture · Jul 2, 2020

Autumn Leaves said:
So, Fluture, do you think Zhenia was lying when she said she managed to surprise her coaches? Also, when she was getting off the ice (especially seen in the repeat), the interaction between her and her coaches suggested that she decided to add that triple at the moment. She was laughing nervously and was saying "i did it especially" although I can't hear well the rest, but I have no reason not to believe Medvedeva. It is interesting to me that you, of all people, would doubt her words. Eteri has also said that when she saw that Medvedeva was going for another triple, her heart stopped, or something like this.

The topic itself seems unimportant, but I find it very interesting that you and Tolstoj are convinced in something that is contrary to what both Evgenia and Eteri have said, contrary to logic (why risk the Russian National title?) and contrary to the visuals and the body language right after the skate. And, yet, you say that it is not a conspiracy?

No. I did not doubt Evgenia, I literally wrote “after having surprised Eteri at Nationals“. My point is Euros, where she tried to do the very same thing and only added the 3T to the 2A after she had an unstable landing on the 3S+3T. After Nationals, Eteri would have told her if she had a problem with it. She either didn‘t or Evgenia didn‘t listen to her. Which I find implausible, given that - at this time - Eteri often remarked how easy working with Zhenya was.

Again, not arguing about Nationals. But why do it again at Euros? This is what’s illogical.

Also, how exactly is “Medvedeva trying the same strategy at two competitions in a row indicates that her coach was (at least the second time it happened) aware of it and/or endorsed it“ a conspiracy?

I‘m not convinced of that whole ”Eteri wanted to promote 3-3-3 combos“. But anyway, I fail to see why it could be seen as an attack against her in any form or way.

Autumn Leaves · Jul 2, 2020

Fluture said:
No. I did not doubt Evgenia, I literally wrote “after having surprised Eteri at Nationals“. My point is Euros, where she tried to do the very same thing and only added the 3T to the 2A after she had an unstable landing on the 3S+3T. After Nationals, Eteri would have told her if she had a problem with it. She either didn‘t or Evgenia didn‘t listen to her. Which I find implausible, given that - at this time - Eteri often remarked how easy working with Zhenya was.

Again, not arguing about Nationals. But why do it again at Euros? This is what’s illogical.

Also, how exactly is “Medvedeva trying the same strategy at two competitions in a row indicates that her coach was (at least the second time it happened) aware of it and/or endorsed it“ a conspiracy?

I‘m not convinced of that whole ”Eteri wanted to promote 3-3-3 combos“. But anyway, I fail to see why it could be seen as an attack against her in any form or way.

Ok, so I must have misunderstood; the talks started about the 3-3-3 combos, which she only did at Nationals.

There is nothing wrong with a desire to promote 3-3-3 combos. I reacted to the easiness of dismissing the words of Eteri and Medvedeva to build some theory.

nussnacker · Jul 2, 2020

LOL, I never thought that adding extra triple can be that deep. :laugh:

TBH, it wasn't a risk for her at those competitions at all, she could fall like 2 times, and she still would've won. That's why she went for it, imo.
I think it also fits her personality, like she's the person who likes to do things for the audience, play around, be cheeky, to me it seems to perfectly fit her character, especially after that winning streak she probably felt really confident. Other skaters from that camp don't really do something like that in competitions, although they are clearly capable too.

flanker · Jul 2, 2020

Fluture said:
Um, what? I‘m not endorsing any conspiracy theories here and I have no idea what happened or why and I never said this was all a part of Eteri‘s master plan to do what exactly... allow triples to be repeated thrice? (3-3-3 were allowed back then too, they just didn’t (and still don’t) make much sense from a scoring perspective)

But if you are a professional athlete and your coach is telling you to stop doing something, chance is you will. Eteri and Zhenya had a good relationship at that point, Zhenya literally said in an interview that there was a full, mutual understanding between the two. So, if she tried to land a 3-3-3/additional triple again after having surprised Eteri at Nationals, it is very likely that Eteri was either okay with it or actively encouraged her to do it. Because I seriously doubt she wouldn‘t have told Evgenia if she was against it and I doubt, too, that Evgenia just wouldn‘t have listened and done it anyway. That‘s all. As for the reasons - who knows? Might have just been to show confidence.

And if not, what‘s even so bad about suggesting Eteri might have wanted to make 3-3-3 combinations/repeated triples valid/more common? Maybe she did try to advocate for a rule change with Zhenya, saw it as a natural progression to 3-3s in the second half. Then, when it wasn‘t successful, she switched to quads and we all know that this turned out well. Isn‘t it part of sports to always try and do more, to be better than the system? I wouldn‘t bet that this is what happened but I‘m seriously baffled how or why you‘d read this as an “evil Eteri“ kind of accusation?

Ultimately we can‘t know and it‘s not as important anyway. But I don‘t see any “biased non-existing“ stories here, sorry.

You expressed an agreement with Tolstoj, who is hardly anything else but walking conspiracy about Eteri giving orders, pulling the strings etc.

As for the Europeans 2017, Tomáš Verner, who co-commented it just said "it is not that she can't count, but she sometimes just adds more jumps just because she can." Then, when he did an interview with Zhenya after her victory, he asked her why she did one more combination, she replied "because I wanted to do a little more than just a clean program." It's exactly part of her personality just like nussnacker described it.

So, putting anything more than this into that reqires more than just blatant hate, there should be something convincing.

BTW it also wasn't Eteri's order for Alina to do 3Lz-3Lo-3Lo-3Lo-3Lo at the olympics.

They are persons with their own motives, aspirations etc., not puppets of the evil queen.

Fluture · Jul 2, 2020

flanker said:
You expressed an agreement with Tolstoj, who is hardly anything else but walking conspiracy about Eteri giving orders, pulling the strings etc.

As for the Europeans 2017, Tomáš Verner, who co-commented it just said "it is not that she can't count, but she sometimes just adds more jumps just because she can." Then, when he did an interview with Zhenya after her victory, he asked her why she did one more combination, she replied "because I wanted to do a little more than just a clean program." It's exactly part of her personality just like nussnacker described it.

So, putting anything more than this into that reqires more than just blatant hate, there should be something convincing.

BTW it also wasn't Eteri's order for Alina to do 3Lz-3Lo-3Lo-3Lo-3Lo at the olympics.

They are persons with their own motives, aspirations etc., not puppets of the evil queen.

Yeah, so? As far as I know agreeing with someone on one singular point doesn‘t mean automatically supporting the entire argument.

Again, I don‘t see the blatant hate. You didn‘t respond to the main arguments of my post, so, one last time before we agree to disagree:

1. Why is it bad if anyone thinks Eteri might have wanted to promote 3-3-3 combinations and - when it wasn‘t successful - switched to trying quads with her students?

2. Zhenya doing the same strategy as she did at Nationals - where she surprised Eteri - shows that, the second time, Eteri was aware of it and/or supported her doing it.

That‘s like literally the only points and neither is an attack against Eteri in any way. (first one reads more like a compliment to me, actually, shows that she‘s able to adapt and find other ways to progress) But apparently openly disagreeing with Eteri a few times makes everything that follows - no matter the actual content - hate. Okay then. :scratch2:

PS: I don‘t even know why you keep talking about “orders“ when that wasn‘t really the point, like, ever? Also, “puppets of the evil queen“? That‘s just a tiny bit exaggerated in trying to make her a victim, don‘t you think? :laugh:

Fluture · Jul 2, 2020

Scott512 said:
Yes of course Zhenya can go back anytime she wants. She practically built the place. She also may end up coaching there someday after Eteri retires. Also Ash time heals all wounds.

I‘m sure she could train there for a while. Officially, there‘s good relations between her and Sambo 70.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_213hmlCeh/?igshid=ed4cz0v9rxu (deliberately ignoring the other mess in that post, point is about Zhenya)

They could figure out different schedules so that she wouldn’t be on the ice with Tutberidze and her group. But it might be uncomfortable to train there again, be reminded of the past every day. And if she feels that way, it would be easier to just train at CSKA (like last year), especially since they have coaches who can look after her there as well.

As for Zhenya coaching at Sambo in the future... well, I‘d say that would be conflicts waiting to happen so I doubt it. All we know is that she‘s got coaching in mind for when she retires and I think she‘d be good at it. She can work well with kids and she has the additional advantage of having experienced both the Russian as well as the Canadian school of skating.

macy · Jul 2, 2020

it wouldnt be the russian ladies thread without bickering about the most pointless of things...

Skatesocs · Jul 2, 2020

macy said:
it wouldnt be the russian ladies thread without bickering about the most pointless of things...

Hello. Do *you* know if we know any Russian lady programs that have been announced? My post got swallowed up by... This a couple of pages back.

flanker · Jul 2, 2020

Fluture said:
Yeah, so? As far as I know agreeing with someone on one singular point doesn‘t mean automatically supporting the entire argument.

Again, I don‘t see the blatant hate. You didn‘t respond to the main arguments of my post, so, one last time before we agree to disagree:

1. Why is it bad if anyone thinks Eteri might have wanted to promote 3-3-3 combinations and - when it wasn‘t successful - switched to trying quads with her students?

2. Zhenya doing the same strategy as she did at Nationals - where she surprised Eteri - shows that, the second time, Eteri was aware of it and/or supported her doing it.

That‘s like literally the only points and neither is an attack against Eteri in any way. (first one reads more like a compliment to me, actually, shows that she‘s able to adapt and find other ways to progress) But apparently openly disagreeing with Eteri a few times makes everything that follows - no matter the actual content - hate. Okay then.

PS: I don‘t even know why you keep talking about “orders“ when that wasn‘t really the point, like, ever? Also, “puppets of the evil queen“? That‘s just a tiny bit exaggerated in trying to make her a victim, don‘t you think?

As usually, you argue about completely different thing.

What tolstoy have claimed comes from his imagination of Eteri as the mastermind behind everything - she orders skaters to do something on purpose and they as mindless dolls just act without their own personality. This is how he presents that. Your attitude comes from the similar assumption and is in understantment with that. You both have not a single piece of evidence that Eteri would want to push some agenda of this kind (and that RusFed would have to intervene in that in any way), yet it doesn't prevent you from making conclusions based just on that. Even "what would be bad on that" is not enough, there many things that woudn't be probably bad to do, but you don't presume things just because of that, right? Thesis based on claims, not on evidence of any kind has no value.

As for "Zhenya doing the same strategy as she did at Nationals" - From one doesn't follow the second at all, where is the casual link. The most we can presume is that Eteri "didn't punish Zhenya enough" that it would prevent her from trying it again on another occasion. In any version we have no reason to think that the iniciative came from Eteri, not from Zhenya herself.

So, whatever is behind the claim "Eteri had an idea to change the rules in favour of 3-3-3 and RusFed had to cease her attempts on the competitive field" has absolutely zero justification. It should be said loud and clear, otherwise people would start to chain other claims thinking that "everybody knows her methods, we've talked about her 3-3-3 agenda already" etc. Attributing wrong/nonexisting motives to people is always unreasonable.

Skatesocs · Jul 2, 2020

I feel like I don't even know enough English to use it as much as the people in this thread do.

Fluture · Jul 2, 2020

flanker said:
As usually, you argue about completely different thing.

What tolstoy have claimed comes from his imagination of Eteri as the mastermind behind everything - she orders skaters to do something on purpose and they as mindless dolls just act without their own personality. This is how he presents that. Your attitude comes from the similar assumption and is in understantment with that.

No. Is all I can say about that. Please don't assign thoughts and feelings to others. Using your own words: Attributing wrong/nonexisting motives to people is always unreasonable.

flanker said:
As for "Zhenya doing the same strategy as she did at Nationals" - From one doesn't follow the second at all, where is the casual link. The most we can presume is that Eteri "didn't punish Zhenya enough" that it would prevent her from trying it again on another occasion. In any version we have no reason to think that the iniciative came from Eteri, not from Zhenya herself.

And just like we have no evidence of Eteri supporting the 3-3-3 attempts, we have no evidence that she "didn't punish her enough to prevent her from trying it again" either. Both are speculations, nothing more than that. It's just that you find one of them more logical than the other. That doesn't change the fact that it's still only speculation, however. Unless Zhenya and Eteri personally tell us (which they only did about Nationals, not Euros), none of us will ever know. But I digress, it's - as usual - arguing semantics. Let's agree to disagree, alright? Just like always. :laugh:

macy · Jul 2, 2020

Skatesocs said:
Hello. Do *you* know if we know any Russian lady programs that have been announced? My post got swallowed up by... This a couple of pages back.

other than Zhenyas and i think Liza announced her short a while back, nope. i hope we get some news soon, i'm getting antsy

Fluture · Jul 2, 2020

macy said:
other than Zhenyas and i think Liza announced her short a while back, nope. i hope we get some news soon, i'm getting antsy

Wasn't it the FS Liza talked about? Or did she announce the SP too? :think:

https://fs-gossips.com/elizaveta-tuktamysheva-we-want-to-show-the-woman-who-created-kabuki-theater/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBBRM0zH64-/?igshid=j7nv31opuupw

Agree about the programs. I want to hear Aliona/Anna/Alina's choices soon. Sasha's, too, whether that choreo Plushenko posted on her birthday really was for her or just an attempt at creating intrigue. Originally I thought the Russian ladies might keep one or two of their programs. But now that there will likely be a lot of time before competitions will happen again, I doubt it.

zounger · Jul 2, 2020

Skatesocs said:
Hello. Do *you* know if we know any Russian lady programs that have been announced? My post got swallowed up by... This a couple of pages back.

As far as I know no. But don't worry there will be dozen of pages how bad the choices are.

Skatesocs said:
Have any of these people announced programs? I remember Med announced Alegria for one of hers.

Maybe people didn't understood who people is and din't replied to you :biggrin:

.

Skatesocs · Jul 2, 2020

zounger said:
Maybe people didn't understood who people is and din't replied to you .

Wait, so some Russian Ladies competing in the 2020-21 season are GS users? :eek:

plushyfan · Jul 2, 2020

Fluture said:
Wasn't it the FS Liza talked about? Or did she announce the SP too? :think:

https://fs-gossips.com/elizaveta-tuktamysheva-we-want-to-show-the-woman-who-created-kabuki-theater/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBBRM0zH64-/?igshid=j7nv31opuupw

Agree about the programs. I want to hear Aliona/Anna/Alina's choices soon. Sasha's, too, whether that choreo Plushenko posted on her birthday really was for her or just an attempt at creating intrigue. Originally I thought the Russian ladies might keep one or two of their programs. But now that there will likely be a lot of time before competitions will happen again, I doubt it.

I would be really surprised if that wasn't an improvisation..

zounger · Jul 2, 2020

Skatesocs said:
Wait, so some Russian Ladies competing in the 2020-21 season are GS users?

You never know. We have judges and journalists here why not skaters.

Tolstoj · Jul 2, 2020

zounger said:
I thought we were talking about 3-3-3 and not something that is already done like 2a-3t. I think the discussion is not the ability to do 2a-3t/lo... but to do 3-3-3. Which Tolstoj think it was because Tutberitze wanted to change the rules. The next season she wanted to change the rules so that there was no more second half bonus. And this season she wanted to change the rules so that 3lutz has the same value with 3flip.

On the 3-3-3 I think they wanted to make the combo valid for a while, and yes they cannot propose rule changes, but they can show skaters can land these combos and audience are excited to see them, so that alone could be considered as an argument in favor of making those tricks valid.

Just like up to last season they were putting pressure on ISU for allowing quads in the short program.

Only on that, the rest you did all by yourself.

Backloading was exploiting the rules imo, they took advantage of the fact that the old definition of balance as equal distribution of elements suddenly was removed.

It was done to a degree where ISU had to stop it, if you are clearly saving it in the first half, is it really the opening jump in the second half worth of a 10% bonus especially in the short?

But i do think that the fully backloaded program was still very impressive to watch, even though it made one half of the program often really boring.

Autumn Leaves said:
The topic itself seems unimportant, but I find it very interesting that you and Tolstoj are convinced in something that is contrary to what both Evgenia and Eteri have said, contrary to logic (why risk the Russian National title?) and contrary to the visuals and the body language right after the skate. And, yet, you say that it is not a conspiracy?

Let's be honest here.

Were her titles at Europeans and Nationals ever in danger? No. At Nationals Alina had more challenging programs and skated better, she still lost the title.

Fluture said:
Just out of curiosity: did RusFed ever officially tell them to stop? I might have missed it but I‘ve never read anything about it.

But it makes sense, there’s no use doing it at Worlds because the risk of falling/getting lower GOE is way higher if you do an additional triple. And it would be supremely stupid to lose a World title due to overconfidence.

Also, I don‘t buy Zhenya took that risk twice without Eteri‘s permission. It‘s a coach‘s job to rein in skaters if they get overconfident. The fact that Zhenya did it again at Euros shows that Eteri was okay with it, maybe even encouraged it.

I remember an article popping up about it and Eteri's response which was something like "okay but we were doing it for fun anyway".

nussnacker said:
everything's a conspiracy

Well i did say clearly that was just my theory on the whole 3-3-3 combos, feel free not to believe it. I don't know why users in this specific thread alone always pretend every theory or opinion is a fact when it isn't, at the same time i don't think you can ever prove otherwise, so who knows how it went specifically? For me it was all planned, no surprise.

zounger · Jul 2, 2020

Tolstoj, yes it's your opinion no one said something different. But it's an opinion that goes too far without any valid reasoning. Tutberidze doesn't control ISU, I don't know what is there to add. If what Tutberidze does is backing by the RusFed that's something to address to RusFed and is a different matter to discuss. But even in that case, I don't see this kind of direction. Tano's where exploiting by Tutberidze were removed, backloading was exploiting by Tutbiridze were removed, all of Tutberidze skaters do lutzs almost changed to flips. So where is her power upon ISU or where her direction was actually approved by the rules?

2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

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Fluture

Autumn Leaves

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one and only

flanker

Fluture

Fluture

macy

Skatesocs

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