Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 61 to 72 of 72

Thread: Which layout does Trusova need to win?

  1. #61
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    460
    Country: United States of America

    0 Not allowed!
    Also I wonder how Rozanov will be as a choreographer? I feel Danny G programs didnt work well for trusova, and maybe with hot sergei there is a chance her PCS could pick up a bit.

  2. #62
    Medalist
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    1,134

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by kolyadafan2002 View Post
    Also I wonder how Rozanov will be as a choreographer? I feel Danny G programs didnt work well for trusova, and maybe with hot sergei there is a chance her PCS could pick up a bit.
    Raisng Trusova's PCS is not a matter of her choreo or execution or cleaness. It's a pure matter of the Board's good will...

  3. #63
    Penalty Box
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    378

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    Raisng Trusova's PCS is not a matter of her choreo or execution or cleaness. It's a pure matter of the Board's good will...
    OK I simply have to ask now. What do you mean by "the Board"? Goldenskate? Why does it matter if we think she's good or not? We can only discuss things, but she is also ruining her program quality AND she's not getting great PCS.

  4. #64
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    460
    Country: United States of America

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    Raisng Trusova's PCS is not a matter of her choreo or execution or cleaness. It's a pure matter of the Board's good will...
    Better choreo = better PCS.
    I sometimes think trusova is a little low balled in PCS, but Kostornias skating is on another level (and rightly gets marked accordingly).

    Trusova and danny g didnt mix. Trusova cares alot about quads, and danny g cares about TPS (transitions per second). This led to trusova having a load of transitions which were executed to a low standard as she had to sacrifice the quality for the quads. If she had less transitions , she would be able to execute each TR to a higher quality and thus boost PCS- as inevitably the more difficult the jumps, the harder the TR.

    I have no clue how Sergei R choreography, but if he does with a style similar to Jeffery Buttle (or like) then I feel like this may impact on the overall performance AND the SS.

  5. #65
    On the Ice Fried's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    382

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by kolyadafan2002 View Post
    I have no clue how Sergei R choreography, but if he does with a style similar to Jeffery Buttle (or like) then I feel like this may impact on the overall performance AND the SS.
    The question is whether he has his OWN style at all. You have to develop a style and that works through experience. How much experience does Hot Sergey have as a choreographer? And above all: from whom did he learn skills and working methods in this regard? For an outsider, it gives the impression that Daniil G. was his "teacher". So I have to ask myself, where great new impulses should come from here.

  6. #66
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    460
    Country: United States of America

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fried View Post
    The question is whether he has his OWN style at all. You have to develop a style and that works through experience. How much experience does Hot Sergey have as a choreographer? And above all: from whom did he learn skills and working methods in this regard? For an outsider, it gives the impression that Daniil G. was his "teacher". So I have to ask myself, where great new impulses should come from here.
    Do you know what he was like as a skater?
    I'm wondering if he was good with his personal performance, as whilst it isnt always the case people who perform better when they are skaters tend to be able to choreograph better programs (again exceptions on both ends)

  7. #67
    On the Ice Fried's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    382

    0 Not allowed!
    I don't know anything about him. That's why I don't really know what to think about this arrangement. Everything is possible. I try to see it positively, after all it builds up a huge excitement.

  8. #68
    Medalist
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    1,256
    Country: Sweden

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by YuBluByMe View Post
    This reminds me of the beginning of last season with people repeatedly insisting and claiming to do the math multiple times to prove that 3As won’t have much of a mathematical advantage against quads. The math was incorrectly done multiple times.

    A fall on a rotated quad is half the value of that quad, not zero. Getting +3 GOES across the board is also not equal to 3 points.

    Yub Lub’s Tutorial on Calculating GOE

    1. There are nine judges at major international competitions.
    2. Nine judges gave the following for a hypothetical 4S (0 1 2 3 4 5 0 1 2)
    3. The highest and lowest numbers are dropped. (1 2 3 4 0 1 2)
    4. The numbers are added together. (1+2+3+4+0+1+2=13)
    5. The total is divided by 7 - the number of judges. (13/7=1.86)
    6. The total is then multiplied by 10% of the value of the 4S. (1.86 x 0.97)= 1.80
    7. The GOES is 1.80. This skater scored 11.5 for the 4S. 12.47 if 4S was in the second half.

    Note: For combinations, the GOE multiplier is based on the jump with the highest BV, not the first jump in the combination. It just so happens that the first jump is usually the most valuable, but that’s not always the case. Example: Medvedeva’s 3S+3Lo. In this case, the GOE multiplier is based on the 3Lo, not the 3S.

    This concludes Yub Lub’s tutorial on calculating GOE.
    Great tutorial!

    Just to be clear, a lot of people seem to think that you get GOE points for the 10% bonus when you backload. That is not the case.

    For example:
    Trusova's 4T+1Eu+3S in the second half only gets GOE on the 4T before the bonus is added.
    So - she did this combination the best at GPF where she got 18.44
    4T BV = 9.50
    GOE 2,857 on 4T = 2.71
    1EU+3S BV = 4.80 (no GOE)
    +10% on total BV = 1.43 (no GOE)
    Total score 18.44

    This backloaded combination will never beat Shcherbakova's 4Lz+3T though - Anna's best result for this combo was at Europeans when she scored 19.31.
    So I am more in favor for Trusova having her quad combo in the beginning of the program. She can backload a 4T, but it is not really worth it to backload this 4T+1Eu+3S combo. It's way too risky for a very few extra points.

  9. #69
    Medalist
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    1,256
    Country: Sweden

    1 Not allowed!
    Kostornaia's advantage over Trusova last season was not only PCS, a lot of it was GOEs.

    This is what they got in average last season:
    Kostornaia GOE 27.10 points per competition
    Shcherbakova GOE 18.0 points
    Trusova GOE 18.60 points.

    That is a HUGE advantage for Kostornaia. So even though Anna and Sasha have much higher BVs and more potential for big GOEs, Alyona beats them with her quality.

    So, the big game changer for Trusova would be (imo) to focus more on quality rather than quantity. Almost 10 points behind Kostornaia in GOE points suggests that there is a lot of room for improvement here.

  10. #70
    Medalist
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    1,134

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jontor View Post
    Kostornaia's advantage over Trusova last season was not only PCS, a lot of it was GOEs.

    This is what they got in average last season:
    Kostornaia GOE 27.10 points per competition
    Shcherbakova GOE 18.0 points
    Trusova GOE 18.60 points.

    That is a HUGE advantage for Kostornaia. So even though Anna and Sasha have much higher BVs and more potential for big GOEs, Alyona beats them with her quality.

    So, the big game changer for Trusova would be (imo) to focus more on quality rather than quantity. Almost 10 points behind Kostornaia in GOE points suggests that there is a lot of room for improvement here.
    I'd like to see extrapolated GOE for Trusova with her full FP arsenal. Two or three crashes ruin everything, GOE included.

    Regarding 4-1-3 backlogged. I'm sure Trusova will attempt to backlog a heavier combo. Maybe 4up-1-3F with an upper quad and better triple.

  11. #71
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    726

    0 Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    I'd like to see extrapolated GOE for Trusova with her full FP arsenal. Two or three crashes ruin everything, GOE included.

    Regarding 4-1-3 backlogged. I'm sure Trusova will attempt to backlog a heavier combo. Maybe 4up-1-3F with an upper quad and better triple.
    There's not much point doing a 4-1-3F combination, tbh.

    Honestly, another way Trusova could max out her base value is to do a 3-4T. This opens the door for such a degenerate layout: (pure theorycrafting, I know it's unrealistic)

    4Lz
    4F
    3S-4T
    3A
    4T-3T-3Lo
    3Lz-3T/3Lo
    3F

    Four quads, but no Euler, which is a waste of a jump tbh. For an even more ridiculous layout:

    4Lz
    4F
    4S
    3Lz-4T
    3A
    4T-3T-3Lo
    3F-3T/3Lo

    I don't think Nathan Chen could do that either.

  12. #72
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    569

    1 Not allowed!
    The Girl Without A Face
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    I'd like to see extrapolated GOE for Trusova with her full FP arsenal. Two or three crashes ruin everything, GOE included.

    Regarding 4-1-3 backlogged. I'm sure Trusova will attempt to backlog a heavier combo. Maybe 4up-1-3F with an upper quad and better triple.
    Her most ambitious layouts this season were at the GPF. If we take her best PCS scores, and her average GOE for clean elements under the current GOE system, then she could get to at least around 80 in the SP and 180 in the FS, ~260 overall.

    Short Program
    3A 8.00 0.00 8.00
    3F 5.30 1.82 7.12
    CCoSp4 3.50 0.95 4.45
    3Lz+3T 10.45 1.63 12.08
    FCSp4 3.20 0.91 4.11
    StSq4 3.90 1.16 5.06
    LSp4 2.70 0.91 3.61

    TES: 45.09 PCS: 34.42 TSS: 79.51

    Getting +GOE for the 3A would boost her over 80. If we only give her a 2A, then she's down closer to her existing PB at ~76 points.

    Free Skate:
    4F 11.00 +3.30 14.30
    4S 9.70 +1.76 11.46
    4Lz 11.50 + 2.78 14.28
    2A+3T 7.50 + 1.12 8.62
    CCoSp4 3.50 +0.95 4.45
    ChSq1 3.00 +1.50 4.50
    4T+1Eu+3S 15.73x +2.61 18.34
    4T 10.45x +2.21 12.66
    3Lz+3T 11.11x +1.63 12.74
    FCSp4 3.20 +0.91 4.11
    StSq4 3.90 + 1.16 5.06
    FCCoSp4 3.50 +0.99 4.49

    TES: 115.01 PCS: 67.42 TSS: 182.43

    SP: 79.51 FS: 182.43 TSS: 261.94

    If she skated cleanly with her full content I assume she'd get a noticeable PCS bump, so she can probably get to 265+, and 270+ with the 3A in both programs.

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Do Not Sell My Personal Information