2020-21 Russian Men's figure skating | Page 4 | Golden Skate

2020-21 Russian Men's figure skating

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
If you mean just the young boys in that photo, all around Samsonov's height or shorter, then probably yes, judging from historical trends with Sambo-70 men. The only guy I'm (almost) certain will stay put is Kvitelashvili.

On a side note, what I like about the Russian men is that there isn't one school that dominates, so it's always suspenseful during competitions :biggrin: There are so many promising young men, all with different styles: from Mishin's guys with their telegraphed-but-textbook jumps and choreo/costumes that are so terrible they become cult classics, to Daineko's youngsters with wonderful projection who look like they've just walked onto the ice from a ballet studio... If you take the two main senior rivals this season, Samarin and Aliev, they're polar opposites in style yet both have interesting qualities to watch.

Compared to the ladies, there is less interpersonal drama with Russian men, which makes things more or less interesting depending on one's tastes. Speaking for myself, the only sort of tea I like is the relaxing kind :coffee:

Yeah, i'm team Moskvina - Daineko with the junior boys, while Rukavicin for the seniors.

Gumennik and Kutovoi are two russian juniors with the most charisma and performance qualities, all the others (including Samsonov) are very much serious serious stone face, only thinking about the jumps, the levels,... With Rukavicin's group i respect that Olga Glinka is there to work on artistry, so it's not just jumps, they work on both.

i'm curious what will happen to Chebotareva now that both Kolyada and Konstantinova left.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Yeah, i'm team Moskvina - Daineko with the junior boys, while Rukavicin for the seniors.

Gumennik and Kutovoi are two russian juniors with the most charisma and performance qualities, all the others (including Samsonov) are very much serious serious stone face, only thinking about the jumps, the levels,... With Rukavicin's group i respect that Olga Glinka is there to work on artistry, so it's not just jumps, they work on both.

i'm curious what will happen to Chebotareva now that both Kolyada and Konstantinova left.

I congratulate you on your knowledge about what the other people are only thinking about :devil:
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
I congratulate you on your knowledge about what the other people are only thinking about :devil:

I'm sorry but it's so apparent, and granted accepted cause in juniors clearly even judges don't care at all about artistry, they just want to see the elements.

But at some point you have to work on the rest too.

You look at the japanese skaters Kagiyama and Sato in comparison with current junior world champion Mozalev (which i like), night and day difference on skating skills and performance and it's only going to become more evident as they transition into seniors.

It's not all bad, like i said Gumennik, Kutovoi, Vetlugin, there are russian men with great artistic qualities.
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
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Sep 22, 2019
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New-Zealand
I'm sorry but it's so apparent, and granted accepted cause in juniors clearly even judges don't care at all about artistry, they just want to see the elements.

But at some point you have to work on the rest too.

You look at the japanese skaters Kagiyama and Sato in comparison with current junior world champion Mozalev (which i like), night and day difference on skating skills and performance and it's only going to become more evident as they transition into seniors.

It's not all bad, like i said Gumennik, Kutovoi, Vetlugin, there are russian men with great artistic qualities.

Some of this perceived difference in skating skills could be due to choreography. Japanese skaters generally go for crowd-pleasing programmes (in a good sense) and will often use international choreographers, while Russian men often end up with choreo/music choices that might seem rather oddball to the average Western viewer. Compare Samarin's creepy electronic LP and Mozalev's rap-pop mashup to Kagiyama's jazz and Sato's tried-and-true R&J (though IMO Shun's performance/polish is a bit wanting compared to Yuma).

Looking at the better examples of skating skills in Russian and Japanese men, I feel that the Russians are generally superior when it comes to posture and lines (more ballet training?), but the Japanese have softer knees and more flow (more stroking drills?).
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Some of this perceived difference in skating skills could be due to choreography. Japanese skaters generally go for crowd-pleasing programmes (in a good sense) and will often use international choreographers, while Russian men often end up with choreo/music choices that might seem rather oddball to the average Western viewer. Compare Samarin's creepy electronic LP and Mozalev's rap-pop mashup to Kagiyama's jazz and Sato's tried-and-true R&J (though IMO Shun's performance/polish is a bit wanting compared to Yuma).

Looking at the better examples of skating skills in Russian and Japanese men, I feel that the Russians are generally superior when it comes to posture and lines (more ballet training?), but the Japanese have softer knees and more flow (more stroking drills?).

What you say about the choreography may be true. But, who outside of Kolyada (whose SS and posture are truly exceptional) has this great posture and lines among Russian men? Aliev has nice lines, but his posture and SS aren’t great. As far as Japanese men go, I honestly have a hard time recalling any skater sent out internationally without good SS, good posture, and at least above average lines.
 

RemyRose

YOLO
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Dec 28, 2005
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Personal perception I guess. I only like 3 Russian guys posture and lines and the rest have various degrees of sloppiness but this extends to all the men. Very few have great posture and line regardless of the country.

PCS judging for the juniors for me, is atrocious. I feel they don't really judge it. Either you have the jumps or not and your PCS will follow and that's going to hurt when skaters move to senior and get their real PCS scores. This applies to some of the Russians that were listed above, not going to name any names.

The choreographer thing could be a money issue. Russia only gives so much for choreography so it's best to go to a local choreographer than a foreign one unless of course you want to spend your own money.
 

RemyRose

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What you say about the choreography may be true. But, who outside of Kolyada (whose SS and posture are truly exceptional) has this great posture and lines among Russian men? Aliev has nice lines, but his posture and SS aren’t great. As far as Japanese men go, I honestly have a hard time recalling any skater sent out internationally without good SS, good posture, and at least above average lines.

Do you watch the juniors? If not, then yeah I would agree that Kolyada is the only senior men with great posture and line. SS to me is something different but he would still have the best from the Russians.

Japanese skaters are hands down better at SS, speed, and flow across the ice.
 

Flying Feijoa

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Sep 22, 2019
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New-Zealand
What you say about the choreography may be true. But, who outside of Kolyada (whose SS and posture are truly exceptional) has this great posture and lines among Russian men? Aliev has nice lines, but his posture and SS aren’t great. As far as Japanese men go, I honestly have a hard time recalling any skater sent out internationally without good SS, good posture, and at least above average lines.

As RemyRose hinted, there are some Juniors with good posture/lines: Gumennik, Kutovoi, Vetlugin, Danielian (though he drops his head going into jumps)... Lazukin has nice posture but not so good SS. Leonid Sviridenko (who I noticed at Russian senior nationals, but who hasn't made it to international events) is quite pleasant to watch too. I should amend my previous statement; it's more that the best lines and posture that I've seen was in some Russian skaters, but as a whole they really run the gamut. And I agree, Aliev is a bit hunchbacked.

On the Japanese side, some skaters with weaker posture/lines: Kazuki Tomono, Koshiro Shimada, Shun Sato etc. They're good skaters without a doubt, and move fluidly across the ice, but you can see sometimes e.g. in landing positions/camels/footwork, little things like a stiff back/tense shoulders/free leg not straightened where appropriate (unlike, e.g. Kagiyama or Hanyu). This is being nitpicky certainly, but I just wanted to make the point that skating skills, lines and posture don't always come hand in hand. Maybe I just have a high bar for the latter two criteria...
 

YuBluByMe

May Rika spin her hair into GOLD….in 2026.
Final Flight
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
But, who outside of Kolyada (whose SS and posture are truly exceptional) has this great posture and lines among Russian men? As far as Japanese men go, I honestly have a hard time recalling any skater sent out internationally without good SS, good posture, and at least above average lines.

I said exactly this months ago somewhere on here. I forget what the thread was about, but I was making a point that Kolyada is actually the only Russian man with great skating skills (and all around great skater/performer) and that RusFed needs to study the Japanese to solidify their skating program for the men to regain their place at the top of the skating world.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
I'm sorry but it's so apparent, and granted accepted cause in juniors clearly even judges don't care at all about artistry, they just want to see the elements.

But at some point you have to work on the rest too.

You look at the japanese skaters Kagiyama and Sato in comparison with current junior world champion Mozalev (which i like), night and day difference on skating skills and performance and it's only going to become more evident as they transition into seniors.

It's not all bad, like i said Gumennik, Kutovoi, Vetlugin, there are russian men with great artistic qualities.

That's maybe for the choreos, not for what this or that skater thinks about. That's nonsense.
 

RemyRose

YOLO
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Dec 28, 2005
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As RemyRose hinted, there are some Juniors with good posture/lines: Gumennik, Kutovoi, Vetlugin, Danielian (though he drops his head going into jumps)... Lazukin has nice posture but not so good SS. Leonid Sviridenko (who I noticed at Russian senior nationals, but who hasn't made it to international events) is quite pleasant to watch too. I should amend my previous statement; it's more that the best lines and posture that I've seen was in some Russian skaters, but as a whole they really run the gamut. And I agree, Aliev is a bit hunchbacked.

On the Japanese side, some skaters with weaker posture/lines: Kazuki Tomono, Koshiro Shimada, Shun Sato etc. They're good skaters without a doubt, and move fluidly across the ice, but you can see sometimes e.g. in landing positions/camels/footwork, little things like a stiff back/tense shoulders/free leg not straightened where appropriate (unlike, e.g. Kagiyama or Hanyu). This is being nitpicky certainly, but I just wanted to make the point that skating skills, lines and posture don't always come hand in hand. Maybe I just have a high bar for the latter two criteria...

Well I guess I must have an even higher bar because one of those Russian juniors I would never include in the ideal posture/line group, especially if we include jumps and landing positions. Back position on landing is quite important and I find his to be not to my liking (or really anything he does)! But the other 3 three I agree with wholeheartedly ;)

Koshiro I agree with. Not sure where Lambiel is looking and it upsets me because that's one of my beloved baby boys, so I will leave it there.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
That's maybe for the choreos, not for what this or that skater thinks about. That's nonsense.

Choreo is only one of many factors (i actually don't even think Kagiyama's free was all that great this season), i notice a big difference in body carriage, edges not being held, face looking down all the time which detracts a lot from the performance.

With Kagiyama not only the air position and height is really good on his jumps but the knee work and edges held on the landing make even his triples very impressive, similar to Yan Han or for certain jumps like the axel even Shoma Uno. And the difference in speed is also very noticeable.

Mozalev isn't necessarily a bad skater, i just think because of the lack of attention on some of these details, his skating look small. Compared to the other russians it's not even that bad, like Samarin has a whole range of issues from looking down, lack of speed, two foot skating all the time, lack of transitions, hunch during crossovers... basically old school Plushenko programs with nothing going on in between the jumps (but at least Plushenko always comes alive during the steps sequence)
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
As RemyRose hinted, there are some Juniors with good posture/lines: Gumennik, Kutovoi, Vetlugin, Danielian (though he drops his head going into jumps)... Lazukin has nice posture but not so good SS. Leonid Sviridenko (who I noticed at Russian senior nationals, but who hasn't made it to international events) is quite pleasant to watch too. I should amend my previous statement; it's more that the best lines and posture that I've seen was in some Russian skaters, but as a whole they really run the gamut. And I agree, Aliev is a bit hunchbacked.

On the Japanese side, some skaters with weaker posture/lines: Kazuki Tomono, Koshiro Shimada, Shun Sato etc. They're good skaters without a doubt, and move fluidly across the ice, but you can see sometimes e.g. in landing positions/camels/footwork, little things like a stiff back/tense shoulders/free leg not straightened where appropriate (unlike, e.g. Kagiyama or Hanyu). This is being nitpicky certainly, but I just wanted to make the point that skating skills, lines and posture don't always come hand in hand. Maybe I just have a high bar for the latter two criteria...

Agree about Danielian. I guess I forgot about him (which is sad because he is one of my favorites). He really does have great lines. His SS are also good if not quite exceptional. However, I can't say that I think Gumennik has impressive posture or lines (he did as tiny junior, but the growth came quickly and I don't think he has adjusted yet). Kutovoi is certainly an adorable performer but I wasn't overly impressed by his posture or lines. I will rewatch his performance to see if I change my mind. I will also take a look at Vetlugin's skating. I can't recall seeing him perform.

If you notice, I did not state that all Japanese men had excellent lines. I just said that they were above average. Shun and Koshiro definitely do need more work on their lines, but I think their lines are better than the average male skater. Koshiro also needs better posture, but I think Shun's posture is quite good. Your mention of Kazuki Tomono is also appropriate but for a different reason. I think his lines are quite good, but he is the one Japanese man who performs internationally who doesn't have the same knee-bend and flow across the ice. (I like him. He is a great performer, but the SS are just average). I think he would be the exception among Japanese men in terms of SS.
 

RemyRose

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Dec 28, 2005
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Agree about Danielian. I guess I forgot about him (which is sad because he is one of my favorites). He really does have great lines. His SS are also good if not quite exceptional. However, I can't say that I think Gumennik has impressive posture or lines (he did as tiny junior, but the growth came quickly and I don't think he has adjusted yet). Kutovoi is certainly an adorable performer but I wasn't overly impressed by his posture or lines. I will rewatch his performance to see if I change my mind. I will also take a look at Vetlugin's skating. I can't recall seeing him perform.

If you notice, I did not state that all Japanese men had excellent lines. I just said that they were above average. Shun and Koshiro definitely do need more work on their lines, but I think their lines are better than the average male skater. Koshiro also needs better posture, but I think Shun's posture is quite good. Your mention of Kazuki Tomono is also appropriate but for a different reason. I think his lines are quite good, but he is the one Japanese man who performs internationally who doesn't have the same knee-bend and flow across the ice. (I like him. He is a great performer, but the SS are just average). I think he would be the exception among Japanese men in terms of SS.

That's a fair assessment......although I'm not a fan of Shun's posture but perhaps I'll review.
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Choreo is only one of many factors (i actually don't even think Kagiyama's free was all that great this season), i notice a big difference in body carriage, edges not being held, face looking down all the time which detracts a lot from the performance.

With Kagiyama not only the air position and height is really good on his jumps but the knee work and edges held on the landing make even his triples very impressive, similar to Yan Han or for certain jumps like the axel even Shoma Uno. And the difference in speed is also very noticeable.

Mozalev isn't necessarily a bad skater, i just think because of the lack of attention on some of these details, his skating look small. Compared to the other russians it's not even that bad, like Samarin has a whole range of issues from looking down, lack of speed, two foot skating all the time, lack of transitions, hunch during crossovers... basically old school Plushenko programs with nothing going on in between the jumps (but at least Plushenko always comes alive during the steps sequence)

It isn't Mozalev as Mozalev :) Like his junior national skate vs. junior worlds skate. At junior nationals he delivered great free skate, which brought him to the world junior champion title at the end :). At junior worlds he was obviously focused on clean skate, but that's very usual at men junior worlds competition for several years in a row (at least since I started to follow it). Usually not the one who brigns the best artistry but is able to skate clean wins, there is hardly more nervous competition than this one. Kagiyama and Sato probably tried to make the more artistic performance but what was the result? I don't mean their position itself, but in the moment they started to do mistakes (esp. Sato) the impression was more or less gone.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Folks, sorry to intrude on your discussion, but does anyone has links to Cup of Russia for this year? I am trying to find information, but it only says starts in September as overall description. Is there any website I can bookmark to keep tabs on test skates and cup of Russia? Thank you!
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
Agree about Danielian. I guess I forgot about him (which is sad because he is one of my favorites). He really does have great lines. His SS are also good if not quite exceptional. However, I can't say that I think Gumennik has impressive posture or lines (he did as tiny junior, but the growth came quickly and I don't think he has adjusted yet). Kutovoi is certainly an adorable performer but I wasn't overly impressed by his posture or lines. I will rewatch his performance to see if I change my mind. I will also take a look at Vetlugin's skating. I can't recall seeing him perform.

If you notice, I did not state that all Japanese men had excellent lines. I just said that they were above average. Shun and Koshiro definitely do need more work on their lines, but I think their lines are better than the average male skater. Koshiro also needs better posture, but I think Shun's posture is quite good. Your mention of Kazuki Tomono is also appropriate but for a different reason. I think his lines are quite good, but he is the one Japanese man who performs internationally who doesn't have the same knee-bend and flow across the ice. (I like him. He is a great performer, but the SS are just average). I think he would be the exception among Japanese men in terms of SS.

True, Gumennik has been looking a bit gangly and awkward this season. I hope it's just a temporary thing and that his coaches take care of it soon. He also doesn't have the best flow out of jumps (or flow in general). Interestingly, Gumennik and Kutovoi both came from Mishin's group several years ago :think: Maybe they were consciously looking to improve artistically.

If you're watching Vetlugin for the first time, bear in mind he's been struggling with jumps lately so that does affect his performance. I think his SP step sequence showcases his ability best, while in the long it seems like he has room to start thinking about all the accumulated mistakes...

I do like the current crop of Japanese men, junior or senior - on average their skating skills and performance are better than the Russians. Regarding lines and posture, these also have to do with inherent physical characteristics, e.g. lack of flexibility in the back/hips or a natural kyphotic tendency. I get the impression that most Japanese men maximise what they have, unlike some men who may be flexible but don't capitalise on it other than in spins (this type of guy tends to look sloppy rather than stiff). Maybe Stephane did try to work on Koshiro's posture, but perhaps he just has tight shoulders?
 

RemyRose

YOLO
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Dec 28, 2005
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Folks, sorry to intrude on your discussion, but does anyone has links to Cup of Russia for this year? I am trying to find information, but it only says starts in September as overall description. Is there any website I can bookmark to keep tabs on test skates and cup of Russia? Thank you!

As of now, there is no Russian calendar. There are no known dates or locations for the Cups. The Fed is waiting to see what happens to the GP before announcing anything.

Usually the calendar is here
https://www.fsrussia.ru/calendar.html
 

RemyRose

YOLO
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Dec 28, 2005
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True, Gumennik has been looking a bit gangly and awkward this season. I hope it's just a temporary thing and that his coaches take care of it soon. He also doesn't have the best flow out of jumps (or flow in general). Interestingly, Gumennik and Kutovoi both came from Mishin's group several years ago :think: Maybe they were consciously looking to improve artistically.

No Kutovoi didn't cross over to Daineko like that. Mishin didn't coach him like he did Gumennik.
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
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Sep 22, 2019
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New-Zealand
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