- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
The advantages and disadvantages of secret judging. Choose more than one selection if you wish.
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Should Judges Names and Nationalities Be Shown in Competitions?
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
The more I see of the new judging system the more I am convinced that it doesn't matter what system is used. Under any scoring system, most of the time the one who skates best will come out on top. Under any scoring system sometimes there will be close contests where people can argue about who was robbed. And under any scoring system there will be opportunities for cheating and their attendant scandals.
I tried for a long time to hold my cynicism at bay, but I am forced to conclude that the whole push for the CoP is about public relations, not better judging. Speedy was under the gun to give the public the impression that he was addressing the issue of political pre-judging, and this is what he came up with.
So from the point of view of the ISU, it comes down to a choice between Joe's first and last answers. Is it better PR to sweep everything under the rug and hope that no one finds out? Or is it better PR to say, see, we have nothing to hide (while still hoping that no one finds out)?
So I voted for complete disclosure.
Mathman
I tried for a long time to hold my cynicism at bay, but I am forced to conclude that the whole push for the CoP is about public relations, not better judging. Speedy was under the gun to give the public the impression that he was addressing the issue of political pre-judging, and this is what he came up with.
So from the point of view of the ISU, it comes down to a choice between Joe's first and last answers. Is it better PR to sweep everything under the rug and hope that no one finds out? Or is it better PR to say, see, we have nothing to hide (while still hoping that no one finds out)?
So I voted for complete disclosure.
Mathman
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Very good post, Mathman.
My strong feelings about Naming Judges With Nationalities is that avid fans like our members of GS will be able to see if there is any justification of biased judging. Of course, those few judges who may be dishonest will be anyway but this may just give them second thoughts.
Bottom Line crooked judging is unfair to all skaters: the winner down to the last entry.
Joe
My strong feelings about Naming Judges With Nationalities is that avid fans like our members of GS will be able to see if there is any justification of biased judging. Of course, those few judges who may be dishonest will be anyway but this may just give them second thoughts.
Bottom Line crooked judging is unfair to all skaters: the winner down to the last entry.
Joe
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
I have never made any secret that in my opinion, the CoP is nothing more than the 6.0 with algebra... The truth behind the scandles in figure skating is the unethical behaviour of the judges. And how does the ISU reward them? By hiding them from scrunity. If there was nothing to hide, the issue of showing the names & nationalities wouldn't be a factor. Period.
Interigity is not apart of this sport's administration & management. It makes me wonder where this sport is going to be in five, ten & fifteen years...
Kwanford Wife
Interigity is not apart of this sport's administration & management. It makes me wonder where this sport is going to be in five, ten & fifteen years...
Kwanford Wife
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2005
Doesn't matter. We all know who the tap-dancing crooks are!!!!
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
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Full Disclosure would be the best PR. However the ISU powers to be have long distained punishing any cheatering judges/officials with lifetime bans. Until the whole mentality is reversed and Zero Tolerance with fair but swift process for punishing proven cheating is put in place, no amount of openness will be the total answer.
1. Establish Strict Ethics Rules for all under the ISU umbrella.
2. Establish and enforce Lifetime Bans for all proven cheating.
3. Bring (International) Judges Selection, Training and Assigments under either direct supervision of ISU or an independent agency, thereby removing them from individual national governing bodies. Make them professional judges, with a Salary, and set up mechanism for oversight and periodic review of their performance.
4. Full public disclosure of all Judges names, and complete marks for every competition upon completion of each event.
Anything short of taking those steps, then why bother! The cheating will continue no matter what system is put in place.
:sheesh:
1. Establish Strict Ethics Rules for all under the ISU umbrella.
2. Establish and enforce Lifetime Bans for all proven cheating.
3. Bring (International) Judges Selection, Training and Assigments under either direct supervision of ISU or an independent agency, thereby removing them from individual national governing bodies. Make them professional judges, with a Salary, and set up mechanism for oversight and periodic review of their performance.
4. Full public disclosure of all Judges names, and complete marks for every competition upon completion of each event.
Anything short of taking those steps, then why bother! The cheating will continue no matter what system is put in place.
:sheesh:
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
I say no to both because fans tend to blame the judges when their favorites don't win. Networks are looking for scandals- real or imaginary and they can create one to get their ratings. I have been a judge at speech contests many times and all the (judges') names, scores and rankings there are a secret. Sometimes people agree with the results, and sometimes they are surprised by them, but everyone accepts them, as a good sport would. In FS a judge can get raked over coals simply by having a Russian sounding name, regardless of the actual nationality. So I say keep the names also a secret. They may want to publish the names of all the judges for all the competitions together if they wish, if they cannot keep a secret.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I say YES because I feel more for the skaters than the fans.
Skaters work hard from about ages 5 through 30 years. They are entitled to honest judging. The fans will complain if their favorite doesn't win whether or not there is secret judging or not.
What's wrong with scandals? It brings out the truth on what is going on with the judges. Non-secret judging will put fear in those judges who want to be dishonest, and will be a factor in preventing dishonest judging.
As to Russian judges, many come from states within the old Soviet Regime. Russians were sent to these states to keep the natives in control. They retain their Russian identity and to the way they were brought up. All this was taught to the children of these misplaced Russians. Of course, they will have Russian names and not names of the natives of the state(s) they were sent to. How many muslim names will we see in figure skating?
Nothing wrong with ethnic pride. The USA has more than its share. I daresay that some Russians in the USA are rooting for Russian skaters. It's understandable.
Talk about dishonesty in figure skating judging has been around for many years. It came to a head in SLC. The Sport has suffered, and will continue to suffer if there is any suspicion of crookedness among its judging staff. Naming judges is one way to prevent dishonesty.
To sum up my feelings on all this. I put the figure skater as the most important element in the sport and he deserves honest judging. If scandals cause the downfall of figure skating then so be it.
Joe
Skaters work hard from about ages 5 through 30 years. They are entitled to honest judging. The fans will complain if their favorite doesn't win whether or not there is secret judging or not.
What's wrong with scandals? It brings out the truth on what is going on with the judges. Non-secret judging will put fear in those judges who want to be dishonest, and will be a factor in preventing dishonest judging.
As to Russian judges, many come from states within the old Soviet Regime. Russians were sent to these states to keep the natives in control. They retain their Russian identity and to the way they were brought up. All this was taught to the children of these misplaced Russians. Of course, they will have Russian names and not names of the natives of the state(s) they were sent to. How many muslim names will we see in figure skating?
Nothing wrong with ethnic pride. The USA has more than its share. I daresay that some Russians in the USA are rooting for Russian skaters. It's understandable.
Talk about dishonesty in figure skating judging has been around for many years. It came to a head in SLC. The Sport has suffered, and will continue to suffer if there is any suspicion of crookedness among its judging staff. Naming judges is one way to prevent dishonesty.
To sum up my feelings on all this. I put the figure skater as the most important element in the sport and he deserves honest judging. If scandals cause the downfall of figure skating then so be it.
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2004
Yes, yes, yes! Total accountibility, nothing less!
- Joined
- May 31, 2005
Do other sports have full disclosure? Do other sports have the judging problems that skating does?
As a parent, I would really be wary of letting my child participate in a sport that has a reputation for such "judging irregularities."
As a parent, I would really be wary of letting my child participate in a sport that has a reputation for such "judging irregularities."
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
How do you feel if your child was in a sport that the outcome has already been decided before the sport begins? or in the judging type sports, that there is collusion among the judges?Skatehappy said:
No, baseball is quite open. Judging sports do if many of the judges' mother tongue is the same but their nationalities are different. Gymnastics could have that problem and diving but I think they really separate the nationalities better than figure skating. JMO.
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
A little OT, but in the basketball playoffs going on right now between Miami and Detroit there is considerable speculation that the referees are doing everything they can to keep the series going as long as possible to generate more income.
Basketball is a sport where a foul could be called on every play if the referees wanted to, and consequently they control the outcome. In one game, Miami shot 53 free throws and won handily. In the next game, Shaquille Oneal got a bunch of fouls right off the bat and hat to sit out most of the game. Detroit won. The next game they called an offensive foul on Rasheed Wallace every time he touched the ball. He finished with two points, fouled out, and was fined $20,000 for complaining.
This is a big problem for the sport, and a real turn-off for the fans.
I don't think figure skating is quite that bad.
Mathman
Basketball is a sport where a foul could be called on every play if the referees wanted to, and consequently they control the outcome. In one game, Miami shot 53 free throws and won handily. In the next game, Shaquille Oneal got a bunch of fouls right off the bat and hat to sit out most of the game. Detroit won. The next game they called an offensive foul on Rasheed Wallace every time he touched the ball. He finished with two points, fouled out, and was fined $20,000 for complaining.
This is a big problem for the sport, and a real turn-off for the fans.
I don't think figure skating is quite that bad.
Mathman
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
OK, mm. I can see that in a serious refereed sport Boxing, e.g? But worse than figure skating - no! at least considering the popularity of these sports.
Joe
Joe
I voted for complete disclosure so there would be no more hiding behind the marks. The skater and coach should be able to go to that judge and ask why the were scored a certain way for an element. The judges should be accountalbe for the marks they give. Maybe this will make the sport better then it has been. Some people are saying that COP will fix the sport and make it more fair for all skaters, but the way it is being applied that is not the case. Or it might be because their favorite if winning more under this system.
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