IMHO, easier for Michelle to improve under COP than 6.0 system

Hikaru · Mar 13, 2005

michaelfsfan said:
Personally, I think that the Kwanhaters have wanted to write Michelle off for years, and CoP is their last hope, but if she does well at Worlds, then they will rant and rave about how she was "held up" by her PCS. :sheesh:

Actually I think many people will say "Skater X was held up by the PSC" if their favorite skater doesn't win. I don't think Michelle will do bad with CoP, but i aslo don't think she will be spectacular with CoP. In the end we have to wait and see what happens.

What I fear most, and i didn't want to say anything no to be acussed of being a Kwan hater, which I am not, but I had been thinking that if Michelle didn't do too well people would say she was robbed, and if she indeed do well, then people woudl say CoP is ultra super and nobody would ever doubt about PCS, as long as she gets high ones. It is a delicate subject, and I understand that we want our favorites to do well and get good scores, but I wouldn't be surprise to see and hear comments along those lines.

Back to the scoring issue, I would love that after each section of the competition the score sheets were published and that way we wouldnt have to wait until the end of the competition, so that we can check each skater and their scores (to look into all technical stuff)

Doggygirl · Mar 13, 2005

Hikaru said:
I would love that after each section of the competition the score sheets were published and that way we wouldnt have to wait until the end of the competition, so that we can check each skater and their scores (to look into all technical stuff)

ME TOO!!!! I've come to really appreciate the detailed score sheets to REALLY see what the judges said, whether I agree with it or not. I hope that's a future improvement for this system.

About 12.5 hours to go until the *Games* begin!

DG

Hikaru · Mar 13, 2005

Doggygirl said:
ME TOO!!!! I've come to really appreciate the detailed score sheets to REALLY see what the judges said, whether I agree with it or not. I hope that's a future improvement for this system.

About 12.5 hours to go until the *Games* begin!

DG

Exactly! I also think that ESPN could present the scores in a different way, so that the audience can understand it better. For instance, they could present the technical score like this: first show the total base score of a program (that is, the base score of all elements executed, without adding the GoE, for examplelet's say a skater had a total base value of 56 points), that way we'll know what each skater's program was worth. Then they could show the total base value PLUS the total GoE (lets say the same skater had a total of 61 points when added their GoE). That way we can tell if in the technical department the skater improved, did well, etc.

Then they could show the score of the 5 component marks. Since this ones go from 1 to 10, we can easily see if a skater got high or low marks. Then they can show the total of points for the program.

I think this is one of the things that make people wonder when seeing the scores if it is actually a good or bad score. Each skater has a different program and not all of them have the same base score, but getting this type of detail can help viewers to understand if the skater improved their own base marks.

Mathman · Mar 13, 2005

Hikaru said:
... if Michelle didn't do too well people would say she was robbed, and if she did indeed do well, then people would say CoP is ultra super.

You took the thought right out of my mind, Hikaru. As a dyed-in-the-wool Kwaniac, that's my story and I'm sticking to it: If Michelle loses, the CoP is stupid; if Michelle wins, it's OK after all.

MM

Hikaru · Mar 13, 2005

Mathman said:
You took the thought right out of my mind, Hikaru. As a dyed-in-the-wool Kwaniac, that's my story and I'm sticking to it: If Michelle loses, the CoP is stupid; if Michelle wins, it's OK after all.

MM

Oh MM!

kyla2 · Mar 13, 2005

Michelle

I think Michelle and Rafael have added components i.e. footwork into jumps, triple-triple combination, etc. to make her very competitive with everyone out there. She has the strongest jump technique of the top 3 as far as I am concerned. Shizuka sometimes under rotates and Irina comes to complete stops when landing. Joannie Rochette will not win gold this year. Her PSC won't be as high as the others. I think Michelle is at her most competitive at this Worlds. She has a very good shot at the gold IMO. It just remains to be seen who brings their best game to the competition. I predict Michelle will do very well. My other big hope is that whoever wins it, really deserves it, and that they don't win it because they were last years world champion or because they have been sick or because they are the latest, greatest thing in skating or for that matter, that they have won the most medals in the past. It should go to the most deserving and I believe that was the whole intent of CoP. We shall see if it delivers.

Bowers · Mar 13, 2005

I hate to see a skater win who skates at a technical level far below what he/she has skated in previous years, regardless of what scoring method is used.

But the big question: Will there be any tweaking in CoP scoring between now and Olympics? Even though this system has been in the works for years, it seems a bit unsettling to feature it in only one World's prior to Olympics. It really affects the "older" competitors, especially Irina and Michelle. Too bad that they have to deal with this change going into their last Olympics. Irina seems to have stepped up to the plate.....By this time next week, we'll know how Michelle has coped. Best wishes to both of them.

gezando · Mar 13, 2005

Apache I think Kwan will do relatively well under any system, will she take the gold or even be placed on the podium? Is she still in the driver's seat, i.e. if she skates clean she will be guarantee a medal? We need to wait for the answer.

I haven't seen much Kwan WUZ robbed post here at GS, at least not at a rate higher than ##### (name any skater) WUZ robbed. Actually a lot of people are singing praises to COP, and predicting Kwan's fall off podium under this system. I predict if indeed Kwan does not make it to the podium these people will continue to sing COP praises, and celebrate, if Kwan does well, they will whine about COP s#cks

Mathman · Mar 13, 2005

Bowers said:
But the big question: Will there be any tweaking in CoP scoring between now and Olympics? Even though this system has been in the works for years, it seems a bit unsettling to feature it in only one World's prior to Olympics. It really affects the "older" competitors, especially Irina and Michelle.

Hi, Bowers. Welcome to the forum, and thanks for posting.

That is indeed a big question. I expect that the CoP will be tweaked in two areas. First, I think that the ISU will respond to criticism that the new system fails to reward the big lollapaloozas that separate the men from the boys and the top lady stars from the wannabes. That's quads and quad combos for men and triple-triples, triple Axels, etc., for the ladies. This could either help or hurt Michelle, depending on whether she decides to go with the triple-triples that she has been practicing or not.

I also think they will do a little tweaking to discourage repeating the same element over and over to rack up the points, the way Irina does with her Bielmann position.

Even so, Michelle and Irina both have such strong basic skills that I do not believe any scoring system is going to hurt them too much. If you skate the best, you are going to win a lot of contests regardless.

Mathman

mzheng · Mar 13, 2005

kyla2 said:
My other big hope is that whoever wins it, really deserves it, and that they don't win it because they were last years world champion or because they have been sick or because they are the latest, greatest thing in skating or for that matter, that they have won the most medals in the past. It should go to the most deserving and I believe that was the whole intent of CoP. ..

That's my hope with this worlds too. I loved CoP from the beginning, even though I do feel the system still need the tweak.

kyla2 · Mar 13, 2005

Bower

I am not trying to pick a fight here, but if you are implying Michelle is skating subpar, guess again. I think she will surprise quite a few people at Worlds.

R.D. · Mar 13, 2005

kyla2 said:
I am not trying to pick a fight here, but if you are implying Michelle is skating subpar, guess again. I think she will surprise quite a few people at Worlds.

Same here. She may not win but she shouldn't be wiped off the ice, either.

Hikaru · Mar 13, 2005

mzheng said:
That's my hope with this worlds too. I loved CoP from the beginning, even though I do feel the system still need the tweak.

ITA :agree:

nthuz · Mar 21, 2005

apache88 said:
.
As for the PCS, with Michelle's current presentation skills, it's taken care of automatically. All she needs to do is have more choreography and transitions which she used to have aplenty.

Ok, component #1, Skating skills: MK has that one cinched. 9 points from me
#2, Transitions: she needs 50% of the definitions just to score 5 (average). Definitions are: variety difficulty, intricacy, quality. I see only quality, that's 25% so thats about 3-4 points
#3 Performance/execution: again she has this one cinched, especially "physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement. I give her 9.
#4 Choreography: not sure about this one, I'll list the definitions:
purpose (idea, concept, vision)
proportion (equal weight of parts)
unity (purposeful threading) so far it sounds a lot like sewing.
utilization of personal and public space (boy, I'll give her that one!)
pattern and ice coverage
phrasing and form
originality of purpose, movement, design
hmmm, 7?
#5 Interpretation: cinched, 9.

WOW! I surprised myself. I was going to argue the statement that presentation was "taken care of". Now I am thinking its just transitions that she is lacking.

Ladskater · Mar 21, 2005

Mark Lee (CBC announcer for the Worlds), stated after Michelle's skate in the Gala - "She (Michelle) has her sights set on the Turin Olympics." Does not sound to me like she will be hanging up her competitive skates anytime to soon. Paul Martini stated that "the battle will between Irina and Michelle, unless some younger skater upsets them. " I imagine Michelle has learned from this weeks event and will go home to do her homework.

tdnuva · Mar 21, 2005

Ladskater said:
I imagine Michelle has learned from this weeks event and will go home to do her homework.

Sounds so familiar. Didn't I read the same a year ago after the last worlds.......

Mathman · Mar 21, 2005

A lot of people are putting words in Michelle's mouth. She will do as she always has -- as she pleases.

Others, but not Michelle, have talked a lot about how important the Olympic gold medal is, how desperate Michelle is to get one, what she has to do to make it to the podium, etc., etc. Michelle herself says, I'm taking things as they come, we'll see.

Mathman

kareliz · Mar 21, 2005

For Michelle to win under COP

If Michelle stays in, and I think she will, she will take very seriously what she has to do. For her to win in COP, I think she needs three things.

1) She needs a truly fabulous program that emphasizes her signature highlight moves, her best spins, etc. that will get her not only maxiumum GOE points, but also maximum componenet scores. I think she should go back to Lori or get Jeffery Buttles' choreographer.

2) She has to do this fabulous program with lots of choreography and moves in the field WITH 7 triples, including three combos and hopefully one of them is a 3/3. I love Michele and am an ardent fan. I think this (doing choreography and all the jumps) will be her biggest challenge.

3) She has to skate clean. As we have seen many times before, she is in a situation where her competitors can make a few errors and still get high marks, but Michelle can't afford any errors. I of course don't want her dependent on others' mistakes, but I think that if they all skate clean, it will be hard for Michelle to beat Irina or Sasha. But it's ice skating and anything can happen.

I am looking forward to a great season next year, with hopefully some great programs.

Aside to Mathman - ITA that Irina's program had no "choreography."

Eeyora · Mar 21, 2005

I find it funny that YRMU would do even better under COP's than Bolero. It had transitions. What happened to these transitions that she was so good. at. Her falling leaf(my favorite) was lost in the program frog position, charlotte maybe it didn't show the flexibility of Sasha but it was still a pretty move, hydro blade- she does in exhibitions all the time, spread eagle, also the Ina Bauer-although not very flexible she could add her own unique spin on it.

I also find it ironic that many of her Lori Nichol programs would have done better under COP's than Bolero with only a few adjustments Salome, Dream of Desedemona, Taj Mahal and Ariane.

She seems to me capable of improving everything. Her only question mark arises in the spins. Is there a spin doctor available.

elinmand · Mar 22, 2005

Better music!

I agree that she needs to reconnect with Lori Nichol. Her real signature work was skated to music that hadn't been overused by other skaters--Salome, Taj Mahal, Lyra Angelica, Red Violin.

Beginning with Sheherezade, her choices have been at best uninspired and at worst cliched. Why do Tosca the year after Irina used it? Why do Aranjuez at all? Why, especially, Bolero? It was a success for Torvill & Dean, but a bomb for Alexander Abt and probably a few other skaters who recognized the inherent problems in time and ditched their programs before they ever saw the light of competition.

She needs to find a piece of music she can call her own, and build a program that makes the most of it. Lori Nichol and--dare I say--maybe Frank Carroll--seem to have a talent for that (although Jenny Kirk's Beatles medley was a poor choice--syrupy orchestrations that all but drowned both melody and rhythm).
Original choices of music should encourage original choreography at any rate.

IMHO, easier for Michelle to improve under COP than 6.0 system

Hikaru

Doggygirl

Hikaru

Mathman

Hikaru

kyla2

Bowers

gezando

Mathman

mzheng

kyla2

R.D.

Hikaru

nthuz

Guest

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

tdnuva

Mathman

kareliz

Eeyora

elinmand

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