Article re Ladies QR

Interesting comments from the top skaters included.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/fskateworld

DG

Keep thinking about this...

QUOTE FROM THE LINKED ARTICLE:



Kwan, meanwhile, completed just four triples with just one triple lutz-double toeloop combination, and had problems with her spins during her slow-moving routine to Ravel's Bolero scoring 99.96.



And the 25-year-old admitted that she was finding it difficult to adapt to the new judging system being used at worlds for the first time, which takes into account spins, jumps and stepwork, as well as artistic elements.



"I had too many things to think about," said Kwan, who skipped the Grand Prix series this season where the system was used before lifting a ninth title at US nationals where it was not used.



"I made a choice, and I feel good whereas a lot of people come in with injuries," she said.

"I was counting my spins more than I usually do. I just wasn't pacing myself. I just didn't feel on."

END QUOTE

I've been wondering how Michelle's 2005/2005 strategy would work. And the competition ain't over 'til it's over, and a lot can still happen. I think we all know better than to ever count Michelle out.

I think every decision in life involves pros and cons. I wonder how Michelle will assess her decisions for the competitive year once all is said and done. The quote that really caught my eye was that she had "too many things to think about." I suspect that could be a result of continued efforts to "tweak" Bolero through a limited competitive season, and not get out there on the COP ice with her competition.

I have just had an eyebrow raised all season about "trying out" COP for the first time at World's when everyone else has tested the waters. While Sasha also layed low this year, she must have some confidence in how she can score based on the GP season last year. Lot's of unknowns for Michelle, and with an LP that has been under fire this season as well. Hmmmm.....

I hope the SP is good for Michelle and it raises her confidence level for Bolero #2 in the LP.

DG

Well Sasha is more of a COP skater than MK is anyway. MK was overrewarded on the 6.0 system based on her ability to stand up jumps combined with a nice look on the ice. Now everything is being evaluated and MK is a weak spinner and her programs consist of little more than crossovers and her forward inside-outside spiral. When Michelle doesn't hit her jumps, there is really very little going on in her programs (much like the other jumping beans out there without the "look" on the ice). Sasha on the other hand, is an amazing spinner and hits beautiful postions in all of her moves and also has the requisite triples however she normally falters on one of her jumps. That's why I like COP b/c the clean program doesn't automatically win (even though I think Li is robbed under both systems but that's another story).

I think that COP is the best thing for a skater like Sasha who can be counted on for one bobble/fall but will do everything else beautifully. Mentally, Sasha doesn't have to fixate on skating perfectly but rather continue selling the program after the mistake like she did at Nationals. She did this at Nationals and I think she will do this here as well. I also think (based on her journals) that Nicks is a very calming influence who doesn't fixate on mistakes the way Robin does. Everytime you saw Sasha in the Kiss and Cry after a bad skate, Robin would be "coaching" her about her skate even though Sasha probably wanted to be left alone.

This worlds is shaping up to be quite interesting... there's definitely going to be a change of the guard here in both men's and ladies.

I'm looking forward to seeing some of the QR rounds on TV. Based on this article, I'm a little puzzled at some of the scoring. If Irina only did 5 triples, seems like her marks were pretty high. And if Michelle and Fumie both landed 4 triples, why did Fumie come in 3 placements higher than Michelle? (I'm guessing it was because she had more speed and flow, but would like to see myself to judge.)

I am glad for Fumie; it's nice to see her have some success after a pretty tough season. And good for Irina to skate well despite her recent health problems.

But, I have to admit, I'm very disappointed that Michelle skated so poorly. I had such high hopes after hearing that she'd been practicing well and even doing triple/triples. This is a real disappointment. She's going to have to skate really, really well in the next 2 rounds to win a medal.

All along I felt it was a mistake for her to skip Grand Prix this year, that she really needed to do that. I was hoping it would work out for her anyway and that she'd still do well at Worlds, but now, it's not looking so good.

Soogar - couldn't agree with you more. While I would always hope to watch the Perfect Skate (jumps and all) I'm SO glad that this sport is no longer just a jump count.

Eyria, it's no longer a jump count, but also there is still a lot we don't know yet on the TES side. Unfortunately, we don't get to see the judges detailed score sheets until after the "fat lady sings." But in the mean time, we have no idea if any of MK's (or anyone else's) jumps may have been called down for under rotation. Irina's non-jump elements are likely to be 3 level 3 and 3 level 2. According to Rosaleen, MK's were 3 level 1 and 3 level 2. I don't know about Fumie this time, but at 4CC she had 1 level 3, 4 level 2, and 1 level 1. All those little points for non-jump elements add up.

DG

According to Patrickbrunk on FSU who studied the COP, had MK did her planned jump content, she would have scored about 113.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

According to Patrickbrunk on FSU who studied the COP, had MK did her planned jump content, she would have scored about 113.

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She hasn't done her planned jump content in a while. The point is that without the jumps she doesn't have a lot to fall back on in her program.

Woulda Coulda Shoulda...

VIETgrlTerifa said:

According to Patrickbrunk on FSU who studied the COP, had MK did her planned jump content, she would have scored about 113.

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ITA that every skater needs to know what their planned content would score. But I would say it's somewhat rare for any of them to execute 100%. While Irina didn't fall, her jump content wasn't 100% as planned either. Nor was Sasha's or Shiz's or Fumie's or Ando's or, or, or.

I think I understand your point - that MK is still in the hunt. And I totally agree with that. We've still got a lot of competition left to go. But I think we could count on less than one hand worth of fingers the times that "content" goes 100% as planned for any competitive performance.

Just two more cents..

DG

I just hope that Kwan isn't gone yet. But I also hope this QR taught her a big lesson...when something big in the sport is changing (especially something as important as the scoring system and what is valued), don't let Worlds be your first competition under it when you have opportunities to test it in real competiton.

Soogar and doggygirl, do you think that Kwan really was just a product of the old system, nothing more, and that her skating has no way to adapt to the COP? I'm just curious on your view on Kwan's chances under the COP.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

Soogar and doggygirl, do you think that Kwan really was just a product of the old system, nothing more, and that her skating has no way to adapt to the COP? I'm just curious on your view on Kwan's chances under the COP.

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you raise up an excellent question. I wouldn't go as far as saying that Michelle was just the product of 6.0. I like Michelle' skating (althought not as much as I like Sasha's or other skaters), and I think that, if she really sets her mind, she can get better scores. However, CoP pays a lot of attention to certain parts of skating that in the past were overlooked if a skater had a fall with the 6.0 system.

I think that what happened, IMO, is that when you hade such good skaters as Irina and Michelle, at some point the competition was just between them, no matter how beautiful spins and choreo others could have, if Irina and Michelle stayed vertical, it was very likely to be between them. They didn't feel the need to take a chance here or there (although I have to say Irina has done her thing with the jumps). Now, it is true that the jumps will have always a lot of weight score-wise, but you cannot rely just on that part. If a skater is a good spinner, then you will see them trying to get the best out of it, and in the end maybe having most level 2 elements with good GoE can give you more points than just landing the jumps. Also the choreography has to be more challenging. IMO Rochette has the best choreo this season; where she could have just done some stroking, she added dance steps, representing her Firebird, just to put an example.

I agree that after this experience, Michelle must be thinking on not taking worlds again to test a new scoring system. At least she did that before olympics. But taking that aside, she needs to work not only in doing triple-triples, but on seeing what are her best assets techincally speaking, and how can she maximize them.

What I don't understand about Michelle's program is that how could she get all those 6.0"s at Nationals and get such a low score in QR, for the same program. I wonder did all those 6.0's give her false hope and made her to confident going into Worlds. I think that she is going to have perfect programs even just to get on the podium( It's a long way from 7th to get to first)

millie said:

What I don't understand about Michelle's program is that how could she get all those 6.0"s at Nationals and get such a low score in QR, for the same program. I wonder did all those 6.0's give her false hope and made her to confident going into Worlds. I think that she is going to have perfect programs even just to get on the podium( It's a long way from 7th to get to first)

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She's only like 2 points from the third place position, and 4 points from the first place one. However, she's gonna have to fight hard to be in that medal hunt.

I wonder ...

With her failure to land her triples this time (didn't she land at least 5 in all her prior performances?) where should she be ranked -- under the old system? Also, what is the worst that could happen? Finishing off the podium? I recall reading about a great baseball player who was a great hitter. He stayed on long after his prime. Today, no one talks about his poor record in his later years. People talk only about the length of time his hitting records lasted, and how he hit without steroids. The player's name -- Babe Ruth.

I agree with DoggyGirl comments after the quote in the article - re Kwan "trying out" COP at Worlds whereas just about everyone else has had 1 season under thier belt.

But, I think we all agree that MK has always done things the unconventional way and perhaps that has been what has allowed her to stay in the sport so long. If say, Slute or Cohen tried to debute COP at Worlds, I think we'd all be skeptic. However, I think that Kwan has shown us that if there ever was a skater that could come from behind or go about things in an unconventional manner and still come out on top its her.

I DO HOPE she skates in the GP next year. I think she has got too to understand it and prepare for Turino (assuming she intends to go)....I can't see her skipping hte GP next year...I think it most unwise...

ITA Atty...

attyfan said:

With her failure to land her triples this time (didn't she land at least 5 in all her prior performances?) where should she be ranked -- under the old system? Also, what is the worst that could happen? Finishing off the podium? I recall reading about a great baseball player who was a great hitter. He stayed on long after his prime. Today, no one talks about his poor record in his later years. People talk only about the length of time his hitting records lasted, and how he hit without steroids. The player's name -- Babe Ruth.

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And while I have my own opinions about MK's strategy (which are just that - opinions about strategy and not about her as a skater generally or a person broadly) this competition is a LONG way from over. And anything can happen. But regardless of what happens, MK already has her place in the history books. And no one can ever take that away from her, and I seriously doubt any fan of figure skating would want to. Just like the Babe.

DG

From the way Michelle Kwan skated at Nationals and at the QR, it seems she is not that motivated, or maybe she did not get the right coaching and training she should have to participate these competitions. She lost her 3l and she doubled the salcow at the QR. So her edge jumps are much worse than before. If you watch Michelle's national performance since 2001, you'll find each year she got little less than the year before. She might feel comfortable with the coaches after Frank Carroll, but I don't think these coaches really did great job.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

Soogar and doggygirl, do you think that Kwan really was just a product of the old system, nothing more, and that her skating has no way to adapt to the COP? I'm just curious on your view on Kwan's chances under the COP.

Click to expand...

I think the old system ultimately hurt Michelle. She hasn't had the motivation to perfect her spins and footwork b/c she has been coasting along from victory to victory for years and "playing it safe". I find it ironic how Irina has all of a sudden become the "perfect package" under COP when she had so many imperfections under the 6.0 system. Now the skater who is actually more athletic (more steps, better spins) is going to win verses the skater who just "looks pretty". Quite frankly, MK has never done it for me as a skater anyway and I think that the COP system is going to expose her for what she is : a jumping bean who skates "emotional" crossovers during her programs.

That said, MK is a very consistent skater and her clone, Poykio, did quite well for herself under COP. There is no doubt that if MK hits her jumps, she will be rewarded under COP. However I believe that she can hit her jumps, but Sasha, Irina and Shizuka can pass her by with a mistake b/c their programs are so deep (and count Fumie in as well).

I also think that MK has the athletic prowess to beef up her elements under COP but she will need to commit to this 100% and test out her programs in the GP series. For her sake, the best thing for her would be to NOT get a medal in this year's worlds b/c she is in sore need of a wake up call. I don't think that the reality of the scoring system has fully dawned on her yet and she is quite stubborn in remaining the same MK. It was ridiculous how last year she actually received 2 first place ordinals in the LP over a brilliant Shizuka. If that's not holding up and scoring according to reputation, I don't know what is.

Lesser skaters have seized upon the opportunity to adapt to COP and there is no doubt that MK has the ability to do this as well.

I think MK should at least go back to Lori Nichol... she did an outstanding job with T&M and Fumie.

Hi, Darby, welcome to Golden Skate. I'm glad you found us.

About Michelle doing the Grand Prix next year, the other side of the coin that she has to weigh is the wear and tear on her body. It seems strange to me (a non-skater) that once you get out of your teens, doing a competition once a month or so seems to totally whip your butt. But look at the men -- everybody is hobbling along with some kind of injury.

Michelle's comments regarding being worried about the CoP -- counting her revolutions, for instance -- do seem weird, though. Now is not the time to start thinking, "whoops, I guess I should have paid more attention to the new system earlier." Now is the time for her just to go out there and skate her program.

VietTerrific, I wouldn't say that Michelle is a "product" of the 6.0 system. But it does seem like after 2002 Michelle was thinking about whether to retire or not, and for one reason or another (including financial incentives) she decided to stay in, but to take it easy for a while. Hence the abrupt change in choreographic style between the Lori Nichol era and the Aranjuez/Tosca programs. I really think in 2003 she just said, the heck with it, I really am just going to skate and have fun.

Then when she kept on winning everything in sight, and the audiences couldn't get enough of her, why change?

Mathman

t was ridiculous how last year she actually received 2 first place ordinals in the LP over a brilliant Shizuka.

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She actually took 4...

I totally disagree with you that Kwan is a jumping bean who has expressive crossovers. I've seen too many great Kwan programs in the past to agree with that. Kwan started downgrading her programs in 2000 when all the importance was on the 3/3. To tell you the truth, in 2000-2002, Slutskaya's programs have been emptier than Kwan's but she was always scored higher because of her jumps, and Kwan just tried to follow that strategy.

IMO, Kwan has only been coasting since after SLC where she wasn't as committed to the rigourous training.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

She actually took 4...

I totally disagree with you that Kwan is a jumping bean who has expressive crossovers. I've seen too many great Kwan programs in the past to agree with that. Kwan started downgrading her programs in 2000 when all the importance was on the 3/3. To tell you the truth, in 2000-2002, Slutskaya's programs have been emptier than Kwan's but she was always scored higher because of her jumps, and Kwan just tried to follow that strategy.

IMO, Kwan has only been coasting since after SLC where she wasn't as committed to the rigourous training.

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Yeah but Slute and her team have just jumped on the COP bandwagon and made the system their b!tch. Quite frankly I am stunned at how Irina has adapted to COP so quickly but a lot of her success can be attributed to the fact that she has been doing these moves for years (just not all in the same program) so she has experience with them. When I look at her programs this year, it looks like the condensed version of Irina's greatest hits. Michelle hasn't had the experience doing all these freaky spins that Irina has so it's going to be harder for her b/c this is the first season that she's actually doing different spins other than her old stand-bys.