Men Free Skate - What were the judges thinking???

Eeyora · Mar 17, 2005

I agree with your mark of this skating championships. Lambiel and Lysaceck are the only things that kept it from being an F. Actually it is a shame that the American TV did not show Li, or Eman or even their own skaterTim Goebel. I could have been spared the pain of his SP though. I give ESPN a low mark as well.

LBC · Mar 17, 2005

jan said:
I think if he had put in another jumping pass he would have certainly been in for the bronze and second in the long program...a critical error on his and/or the coaches part.

The jumping pass was to come right after the footwork that he stumbled on. The footwork mistake seemed minor at the time but it became major because he couldn't do the jump. Only did one combo I think as well.

mzheng · Mar 17, 2005

indiaskye1 said:
Just my thoughts on the Men's Free Skate ...

... there is no question that Stephane Lambiel is the rightful champion ... he skated superbly through all three parts of the competition.

But what's up with the rest??? I mean, I can just get over Jeff Buttle winning silver (though he shouldn't have been ahead of Weir) ... but Lysacek with the bronze? Are you kidding me?`

I was watching the competition live in TV with two friends who couldn't understand this either.
The German commentators were completely outraged at the final result!!!

How could Johnny Weir not be on the podium? How could anyone prefer Evan Lysacek's program to that of Johnny who is so much stronger both in the technical elements and program components?

I have been watching figure skating for many years, and have been to many competitions, but this World Championship is leaving a bitter aftertaste.

There were several other decisions that apparently no one can understand but not giving Johnny Weir the Bronze medal is unforgivable.

Vanessa

LOL. You should blame Plushy's withdraw. If he stays there is no question of bronz. Neither Johnny nor Evan would be on podium.

Actually they did prepare for Jonny win bronz. I watched ESPN, after his program Jonny sit with his mom to watch the rest of the competetion. Then there was a lady came over call Jonny out to be with his coach.

mzheng · Mar 17, 2005

soogar said:
Dude, WHAT ABOUT LI!!!!!!

Man , I'm so tired of the Li robbing. It's not as if Yevgeny or Brian do *much* harder spins that Li but they are rewarded for their jumps. This is not the case with Li. This is a bunch of bulls!t.

So where are all the haters who complained about Irina winning euros over girls who completed more jumps? I guess when Buttle and Lysacyk get into the medals it's okay b/c no one cares about Li.

Lol. Do you seriously think you would find complainning about Li's wuzrobbed thread in a english speaking board?

Props to you though.

soogar · Mar 17, 2005

mzheng said:
Lol. Do you seriously think you would find complainning about Li's wuzrobbed thread in a english speaking board?

Props to you though.

I'm curious as to how the Chinese view the whole Li thing. What are they saying in the Chinese press? I know that the commentators on British Eurosport were kind of aghast at Li's scores. They didn't know what to make of how Buttle was scored.

mzheng · Mar 18, 2005

stupidregistration said:
Let me just start by saying that I do agree that Stefan deserved the gold even though he did 2 non jumps and I think didn't do a triple axle either *correct me if I'm wrong on that.* Did Stefan deserve a score that was 20 points higher than Buttle? I don't quite think so even though his program was superior he still did 2 non jumps and no axle. Terry Gannon also mentioned that his free skate score was the highest ever for the new COP system which sounds crazy to me if that's a true statement considering....again....he did TWO non jumps.

Stefan only had 7.88 points higher than Jeffery. The 20 points were he collected in qualify round and SP.

Justafan · Mar 18, 2005

IMO, even with the bobble and the weak spin, Johnny should have won bronze. With all due respect to Evan, who did great, the artistry is just not comparable. The quality of the footwork, jumps, arm and leg positions, etc. tell the story...just not to these judges. I think Evan flailed his arms about a bit and some of his leg positions looked awkward to me, although I think with a little tweaking he is going to be a force to be reckoned with as he does have some elegant features about his skating. I am proud of Johnny, but sad too because I know he trained so hard for this, even working on his quad. Maybe these guys train too hard. Oh well...congrats to all who won. Lambiel's quads and spins were simply breathtaking. I couldn't believe how much air he got on that first quad...WOW.
To be fair, I didn't see Li's performance, but am going to download it.

boggartlaura · Mar 18, 2005

Justafan said:
IMO, even with the bobble and the weak spin, Johnny should have won bronze. With all due respect to Evan, who did great, the artistry is just not comparable. The quality of the footwork, jumps, arm and leg positions, etc. tell the story...just not to these judges. I think Evan flailed his arms about a bit and some of his leg positions looked awkward to me, although I think with a little tweaking he is going to be a force to be reckoned with as he does have some elegant features about his skating. I am proud of Johnny, but sad too because I know he trained so hard for this, even working on his quad. Maybe these guys train too hard. Oh well...congrats to all who won. Lambiel's quads and spins were simply breathtaking. I couldn't believe how much air he got on that first quad...WOW.
To be fair, I didn't see Li's performance, but am going to download it.

Also remember that Evan was 4 points ahead of Johnny before the LP, so even if Johnny had beaten Evan in the LP, Evan still would have taken the bronze.

screech · Mar 18, 2005

ChiSk8Fan said:
Buttle seems to receive high "SS" marks despite programs not showing high jumping ability. He does a 3 axel, but misses it often and has that wild entrance. He does a triple-triple, but the second triple is a cheated "toe-axel" jump instead of a toe loop, so he doesn't deserve full credit. Jumping IS part of "SS", but mistakes are overlooked if the judges want to do it. "PF" should also suffer with falls and marks taken off or not awarded fully. He does deserve some very high PCS, but not all of them for that skate. He is lucky to have come in second, I believe

I just have to comment on your remarks about Jeff's triple/triple - after reading your comments I closely looked at his triple flip/triple toe combination from the short program. He does the element cleanly, no toe axel takeoff (and yes, before you ask, I do know what a toe axel looks like).

mzheng · Mar 18, 2005

soogar said:
I'm curious as to how the Chinese view the whole Li thing. What are they saying in the Chinese press? I know that the commentators on British Eurosport were kind of aghast at Li's scores. They didn't know what to make of how Buttle was scored.

I bearly go there with all those crazy smilly the page took just too long to load.
Fans there not as skating educated here or any other english boards ie. FSU, MKF but they conduct much more civil discussions, sounds like most college student. They like veriaty skaters not perticular their own. Mostly the foreign skaters and some are Russian skaters.

Just talk about my own impression about the PCS scores. IMO, generaly Jeffery deserve his higher PCS scores than Li. But not Brian's PCS scores. Just like you said, Brian got rewarded the PCS scores for his jump ability, but Li's jump ability diddn't get the same reward in PCS score.

Take SS for instance (since it is technicall related can be disscussed more objectively) one of the basic skating skill stroking, both Jeff and Li sink down to the knee, since Jeff spin better centered and other MIF connection so his higher SS than LI is adjusted. But what Brian? IMO his higher SS is unjustable.

Even under 6.0 I felt Li was undermarked at presentation marks. The interpretation of music, Li's SP --GongFu?-- is perfectly interpreted, IMO. But since this is related to chinese cutural, not the main stream in skating cutural anyway, so no judge appreciated or understanded (Dick Button did understand at 2003 worlds?). Again its matter of taste in judge. Born as Chinese you want to play western game then play with western style. Just like chinese pairs, I read some poster imigrated from Russia, who posted at IFS board that top chinese pair S/Z's style couldn't be more Russian. Although they are still dissed in some Russian boards.

chania36 · Mar 18, 2005

Even if Jeff Buttle did not skate his best tonight, he did win the silver medal, they did not give it to him. He did well deserved it... Even with the mistakes, he had a good performance, no one was clean in the top 3, so if someone had been, maybe we could complain, but everybody did some mistakes.... Although Jeff is one of my favorite male skater, I thought that tonight's performance was not the best he can do, but with comparison with the other skaters, I think that the podium is ok and that everyone who is on it, deserves to be with the performances given tonight.

rain · Mar 18, 2005

chania36 said:
Even if Jeff Buttle did not skate his best tonight, he did win the silver medal, they did not give it to him. He did well deserved it... Even with the mistakes, he had a good performance, no one was clean in the top 3, so if someone had been, maybe we could complain, but everybody did some mistakes.... Although Jeff is one of my favorite male skater, I thought that tonight's performance was not the best he can do, but with comparison with the other skaters, I think that the podium is ok and that everyone who is on it, deserves to be with the performances given tonight.

Now that I've seen it I totally agree with this comment. People are really picking on Buttle, but aside from his two obvious falls, his program was near perfect and he performed the hell out of it. It was clearly, along with Lambiel's one of the most sophisticated out there tonight. A couple of the skaters he beat may not have had the two big mistakes, but they did have more than two minor errors that ate away any advantage Jeff's mistakes would have given them. Minor slips here and there add up....

I know I'm going to get smacked down for this, but I actually don't disagree with Weir's scores. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan. But tonight he looked lackluster, slow and just not on. His spins were miles below what he usually delivers, his stumble on the footwork (an element, by the way, just like a jump) was really noticeable. And the lack of combinations clearly hurt him.

Jaana · Mar 18, 2005

I would say that the men´s event was judged okay. As much as I love Weir´s skating, he was behind Lysacek after the short programme and in freeskate Weir did not do combinations (with the exception of triple axel). If he had, Weir surely would have been third.

WOW, I´m sooo happy with Lambiel´s win, Buttle getting silver and Lysacek bronze... Would though have hoped that Weir could have been on the podium as well.

shine · Mar 18, 2005

soogar said:
My impressions:

I liked Stephane Lambiel better last year. This King Arthur program looks hastily choreographed and he could do a whole lot better than this.

I agree. He could do so much better. That program really looks thrown together. And there wasn't all that much going on besides the jumps and the 2 step sequences. I'm still waiting for him to come up with another program that's at the Cirque du Solei or Chocolat level. They are masterpieces, and he can do it. Still soooo happy he won tho!

Evan really reminds me of Ilia Kulik both in body type and the jumps. It's no wonder that they both shared the same coach (Evan was coached by Kundravstiev(sp?) before going to Carroll).

WHAT? Kulik's jumps were SO much more effortless, higher and more powerful. And Evan looks like a stick while Kulik was well proportioned.

shine · Mar 18, 2005

ChiSk8Fan said:
Lambiel may be wonderful, and a world champion now, but he will not win the Olympics with a skate like that. He had a single axel, double lutz and single flip. I don't believe he did a triple loop, either. Everything else was great, and he is still so young at 19.

I'm sure Lambiel is aware of that as well. And watch again, he did land a beautiful triple loop.

Jaana · Mar 18, 2005

ChiSk8Fan said:
Lambiel may be wonderful, and a world champion now, but he will not win the Olympics with a skate like that. He had a single axel, double lutz and single flip. I don't believe he did a triple loop, either. Everything else was great, and he is still so young at 19.

Well, in every competition, also in Olympics, a win always depends on what and how the other skaters are doing there. Here in 2005 Worlds Lambiel jumped two quads in the freeskate and also showed how well focused he can be under pressure (he was leading during the whole competition) and after an early mistake. I´d expect him to get a lot motivation for his work regarding the Olympics.

diver chick · Mar 18, 2005

shine said:
I agree. He could do so much better. That program really looks thrown together. And there wasn't all that much going on besides the jumps and the 2 step sequences. I'm still waiting for him to come up with another program that's at the Cirque du Solei or Chocolat level. They are masterpieces, and he can do it. Still soooo happy he won tho.

Stephane's program was just thrown together - rememeber he has been using the much better (IMO) Truman Show program that did not seem to go down well with the judges and so he changed it to King Arthur which is more obviously COP friendly. I say obviously because IMO Truman show was much more COP friendly as it had far better and more interetesting choreography and to my mind the advice that is being given to skaters like Lambiel, Kwan etc, all the artistic skaters seems to be leading them down the path of sacrificing the in between choreography and that as long as you have x amount of good jumps at certain times in the program, y number of intircate spins and z number of difficult step sequences then you have a COP friendly program. Unfortunately the judges seem to just want to see the tricks - be they jumps/spins whatever and are not all that bothered about whether or not skaters have good over all programs.

Chocolat and his Tango SP are two of my favourite Lambiel programs and hopefully he will come up with something like that for Olys next year. I am sure had King Arthur been a program he used from the beginning of the season it would have been closer to the type of programs that we see from Stephane. I just hope that the advice and the messages the judges and officials send to skaters doesn't end up with all these skaters skating to these quite ordinary music choices. Would be very interested to see how Stannick Jeanette would have been marked under COP.

Kasey · Mar 18, 2005

First, I wanted to respond to a couple of specific quotes...

It's not as if Yevgeny or Brian do *much* harder spins that Li but they are rewarded for their jumps.

Evgeny does hard spins? Other than the Biellmann, I thought all his spins were level one? He doesn't even do change of edge. That just took me by surprise, that comment. At least Brian has increased his spins in difficulty a little.

Still, he was second in the Junior Worlds two or three times behind Andrei GRIAZEV and now wins a world medal at his first Senior Worlds.

Evan was second ONCE to Griazev in Junior Worlds, last year, 2004. He was second two other times, but not to Andrei.

I agree with the poster who said something about Li maybe not being appreciated as much, PCS wise, because his programs are of cultural significance, and yes, many people (myself included) are ignorant to Chinese culture. I am also quite ignorant to Russian culture, so don't know the emotional expression or meaning of some Russian music used. Of course, we didn't see Li here this year, but I think I have seen him two, or maybe three times. His athleticism impressed me, but his style and expression reminded me too much of Stojko, who I also never really cared for, presentation wise.

I also much prefer the lyricism and the spell Johnny Weir can cast while he skates, and agree that Lysacek, although a pleasant and energetic skater, is still a little junior in his presentation. But he sells himself well, and perhaps the fact that Johnny appears more introverted on the ice works against him in favor of "the entertainer".

Kasey

BittyBug · Mar 18, 2005

boggartlaura said:
Also remember that Evan was 4 points ahead of Johnny before the LP, so even if Johnny had beaten Evan in the LP, Evan still would have taken the bronze.

Evan was only 2.85 points ahead of Johnny going into the Free. The most curious part about the marks is the sudden increase in Lysacek's PCS. For the QR his total was 65.2. At 4CC he got 68.02. Now he has a less than perfect skate - same program - commentators noting that he was "running out of gas" - and he scores a 70.56? Weird, but then again, many of the PCS scores have been weird all season.

Linny · Mar 18, 2005

Under marked

From the comments in this thread, it appears that a number of people think that Weir and Li are the two skaters who may have been undermarked. One person suggested that Weir's undermarking might have been a case of the judges not like what they term as effeminate skating... so exactly how would this apply to Li? Kinda blows a hole in that theory, doesn't it? That and the fact that half the judges are... oh, nevermind. You get it.
Linny

Men Free Skate - What were the judges thinking???

Eeyora

LBC

mzheng

mzheng

soogar

mzheng

Justafan

boggartlaura

screech

mzheng

chania36

rain

Jaana

shine

shine

Jaana

diver chick

Kasey

BittyBug

Linny

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