Sequins and Manhood in the USA

Re: When?

Just to change the direction a little from Why? let's consider When. I recently got a volume of old St Nicholas' Magazines for children. In the late 19th and early 20th century, figure skating was thought of as one of the big winter activities. For both boys and girls. When I was a kid in the late 1950's and early 1960's little boys in New England routinely got black figure skates, not hockey skates, for Christmas. My Dad had figure skates. My brothers played hockey on figure skates. My husband had figure skates and the only pair of hockey skates he had were his goalie skates. Pictures from that 100 years of skating (1860 to 1960) show guys-I particularly remember a picture of the Reverend Some or Other Skating in his top hat. The picture that Brian Boitano evoked of the showoff young man in his Les Patineurs SP was typical of the feeling involved. Skating was a typical first date activity. Weirdly enough, both my husband and I and my father and mother skated on our 'first dates'. Skating was a good way to meet/date/impress the opposite sex and a general fun thing to do in the winter. If you could dance on skates, so much the better, and the more fun. In the 1950's, no one thought Dick Button was gay. In fact, they voted him the sportsman of the year. For that matter, doesn't anyone remember Hans Brinker and the Silver Skates??

When on earth did it become gay for a guy to figure skate?
Was this something started in reaction to the style of Toller Cranston? Did it have something to do with sequins of the Europeans? WHEN DID Figure Skating suddenly become equated in the mind of little hockey players with being gay?

dpp

Re: When?

dpp,

Very good question. Now that I think about it, American men weren't always expected to be as macho as they have to be these days. I seem to remember that American men in the past can get away with being a lot more fey. Given that I was born in 1981 and that I have yet to get my hands on a time machine, I can only derive my standards from the most accurate depiction of life as everybody knew it: Hollywood (the preceding statement has a wink of sarcasm).

I'm thinking Gene Kelly, for some reason. The light and lively way that he sometimes danced would no doubt brand him queer, at least to quite a few wankers, if he did it in today's movies. Besides him, plenty of the allegedly sexy male stars in, let's say, in the 40's to 60's were never as buff and gruff as the allegedly sexy male stars of today. Compare Cary Grant to Mel Gibson, or Clark Gable to Brad Pitt. I'm pretty sure the standards for manliness got a huge injection of testosterone at some point.

However, once again, I emphasize that I haven't lived long enough, or taken enough gender studies classes to get an accurate handle on this. I encourage anybody, particularly those associated with dance-related fields, to shed light on the question of, "When and why did moving gracefully, outside of kung fu choreography, became associated with homosexuality when done by a man?"

Re: When?

It's just a shame that boys and men are made fun of by some of society for figure skating. My father comes and figure skates on saturdays with me when I go and he is straight. I think that in general average society or average viewers not hardcore fans like most who talk on this forum are more interested in knowing whether a male skater is homosexual or not. I am not interested that much in it and it doesn't make me like a skater less or more. it doesn't really matter to me.

~Spyralz

Re: When?

dpp,
I second Fetal on your raising a great point. Actually, I was thinking about Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly the other night after reading this thread and thinking, "Fred Astaire was thin, balding, and not what you would call handsome, yet his grace and savoie faire made him a 'sex symbol' in the movies." Gene Kelly had a more athletic style, but as Fetal noted, dancing or the more encompassing "moving with grace" was not considered "gay" until...when? The '70s with disco and the gay rights movement? Or does it depend somewhat on the kind of movement and grace? Male ballet dancers in the US seem to have been a gay stereotype going back to the 30s and 40s. And despite his celebrity in the '80s and engaging in "mass quantities" of heterosexual encounters, Barishnykov did nothing to change the perception of male ballet dancers. Although male hip-hop and music video dancers don't seem to get the automatic gay assumption.

As for skating, I don't know that the perception that "all male skaters are gay" would be any different if the top male skaters in the '70s and '80s had been more like Kurt Browning and Viktor Petrenko and less like Brian Boitano and Brian Orser. I think that once figure skating lost its connection to social skating that it became like dance and being like dance made it gay. If I had to guess, I'd say this happened when you mentioned, around 1960--when so many other changes also started to take shape.

In the movie "Passion Fish" the lead character, who lives in the deep south, has a cousin come to visit who is clearly gay. The live-in aide's response when she is asked about him is to say, "He seems very literary." Of course it's meant to be a funny and ironic comment, but how many other ways could one describe a male and get across the idea that he was gay? "He looks like he would enjoy figure skating." "He seems to know a lot about ballet." "He's very musical." It seems there is the "gay line" in America that is seldom acknowledged but always there beneath the surface.

I'm not making a point here--sorry--except to say that the perception of what is and is not a "gay" activity seems to be constantly changing, although culturally we don't seem to perceive it until there is a high water mark, such as Rock Hudson being diagnosed with AIDS. Though the double standard still seems to be the rule, eg, conservative women all over the US tell their innermost secrets to their openly gay hairdressers, yet if their son comes home and says he's gay, it's a catastrophe. So I guess my point is that how our culture reacts to gay men is kind of like this post--all over the place--except that mainstream America, by and large, still hates them.
Rgirl

Re: When?

To add to your point, Rgirl. As the fabric of social stratification began to change, so did the attitudes towards gay men. There is a direct correlation with changes of women's roles and their rise to power coupled with uncertainty about men and their masculinity and how it was difined ( in harmony or contrast with the little wifey ) that gave way to some pretty vitriolic feelings towards gay people. As the balance of power begin to change in society at large between men and women, men lost their security of what it "meant" to be masculine. They needed new ways to prove their "virility" and sexual security.
Throw in a couple of other factors, such as the growing empowerment of gays and the need to find a replacement set for group hate ( no more godless communist to threaten America, must be the gays that are the great threat then) and you had a situation rife with possiblities for prejudice and bias. Alas, as it became less and less popular to bash women and blacks as a group ( at least in public), gays have taken over as numero uno as targets for fear based ignorance and intolerance. Couple that with the fact that gays have often compensated for being excluded from group and traditional men's activities by choosing more rarified persuits and you have all the recipe for a common misconception that Figure Skating=Gay. Remember, Figure skating has to do with presentation and appearance, most guys that I know want to be less concerned with how they appear, not more. I know that sounds like a biased statement itself, however, societialy make far fewer demands on men to "look good" than we do of women. Thus, any man who spends inordiate amounts of time "looking good" must surely have something "in his closet..."

Re: When?

Oopsie, I've changed my mind. Well, I did say I didn't live long enough to have an accurate handle on this. But after talking with some older and wise people, I take back my statement that men have to be more macho than they used to be. Nowadays men are allowed much greater freedom of expression. From what I heard, 50 years ago men who cried in public would be sissies, nowadays they'd be "emotionally adjusted." Then there's the violence aspect. Men used to be able to get away with a lot more violence, particularly towards spouses. Silly me for gauging things by unrealistic Hollywood standards.

But, there is another side to it. The fact still remains, graceful male dancers weren't always thought of as queer, they were sometimes even thought of as super stars that were admired far and wide. There was some point in history where the arts became associated with gays and other radicals. My friend tells me that happened around Nixon's time. Nixon apparently went on a crusade against the arts and grouped all the Communist hippie homophile freaks into it. I suspect the impression stuck.

sk8, excellent point about the emergence of gay civil rights. Americans weren't that preoccupied with sexuality, at least not openly, until the sexual revolution. I think once those terms came tumbling out, and once Nixon latched onto them as weapons to fire at the arts he despises so much, figure skating got queered.

Re: When?

rgirl wrote:

<strong>I don't know that the perception that "all male skaters are gay" would be any different if the top male skaters in the '70s and '80s had been more like Kurt Browning and Viktor Petrenko and less like Brian Boitano and Brian Orser</strong>

Funny, my friends and I have always considered Brian Boitano a masculine skater.

Re: When?

Sk8m8 - For those who have attended a formal ball will attest to the fact that all the women want to dress different from each other and all the men arrive and look to see that they are all wearing the same black attire. Vive la difference.

Joe

Sequins

Hi again everyone! "I know I've been away for such a long time. . . . .Swanee, how I luv ya, how I luv ya . . ."

Glad to be back and reading this post. Let's face it, any discussion of sexuality and sex roles - whether or not this thread should be moved to Le Cafe - can never fail to fascinate us; I know I am fascinated to read all your stories.

Can I just share something as a gay man? Trying to figure out why Figure Skating is equated in any culture's conciousness may lead to endless speculation; for me, I actually value the fact that gay men have acheived so much in this particular sports field. For me (and I speak for myself, not for all gay and lesbian people) I accept the fact that there are gay men involved in the sport!

Let's not try to figure out ratios of gay to straight, I truly believe that things really won't change out there for talented boys wanting to skate until the adults decide that being gay is ---- OK. That's a hard and high road to take, and many will consider too difficult a barrier to move through, accepting male gayness.

Isn't this the issue behind the issue? Gays and ballet, gays and interior decorating, hairdressing, design, fashion, computing, accounting, hockey, football, nursing - figure skating. When will it not be an issue?

Tenorguy

Re: Sequins

<font size=+3><font face="tahoma, arial">
Isn't it rather obvious that the BEST skaters are gay??? Hello??? In case you don't know gay men EXCELL in all areas of ARTISTRY. Like hairdressing, interior decorating, fashion designing. It only makes sense if a figure skater is going to be any good he MUST be gay!! ask your self this question would you want a straight man decorating your home or styling your hair?!?! HELL NO!!! you would want a stylish gay man. Look at emmanuel sandhu, john curry, toller cranston, all wonderful artists wonderful skaters wonderful men...straight male figure skaters should watch the gay skaters and try to attain there superior artistry!@!

Re: Sequins

The enemy isn't hockey. Hockey is a sport, just like football and basketball. The enemy is ignorance. Most parents would rather have their sons look up to a wife beating disgrace like Darryl Strawberry or Jose Canseco than a gay athlete.

The other day at the rink, I was talking with a young man who is in my class. I told him that unfortunately, you're in a sport where there aren't too many boys participating.

Sequins

Just a test before I write too much...

Sequins

OK, sorry...had to RE-register!!! I so HATE E-Z boards!!!

Forgive me if I'm joining the conversation late and this has been addressed, but I haven't seen a big part of the men/sequins question: the SHOWBIZ factor! Besides the athleticism and sport, ice skating is entertainment. A costume is integral to entertainment, and the best ones add immeasurably to a performance. Who will ever forget Scott Hamilton's light-up pants? Or Josee Chouinard's "Sweater" program? If you remember the programs you loved the most, I'll bet you could describe the costumes perfectly.

Gay or not, sequins -- or any other material that adds to a skater's visual appeal -- can be forgiven in the realm of show business. (Hey, I've seen sequins on David Copperfield, too!)

Ratios

The previous poster is right: trying to figure out ratios of gay to straight in any profession would be fruitless.

Here's a point: people who are drawn to the arts are more frequently those who would go against the grain, people who are strong individualists. Should it be a surprise that if a person possesses those traits, if that same person happens to also be gay - through a totally unrelated deal of the cards - that a strong individualist would choose to be openly gay?

And that people who are drawn to other professions may not have such strong tendencies towards being a strong individualist? And, therefore, are less frequently openly gay?

Not less frequently gay (since we can't get ratios, this is part of an unproven premise). Just less frequently OPENLY gay.

You know?

Linny
P.S. My friend dates a heterosexual male hairdresser. And his clients tell him all their deepest secrets. My other friend is a female hairdresses. And her clients tell her all their deepest secrets. Methinks it has something to do with the intimacy of the beauty shop, not the sex of the hairdresser.

Re: Ratios

Linny,

Regarding your hairdresser friends, I think you're right. I think that when we feel vulnerable most of us react in one of two ways... withdraw or never shut up. As a nurse I have noticed this with patients. Either it's like pulling teeth to get information from them or they want to tell you EVERTHING. Bartenders get this too. Another theory on this is that when dealing with hairdressers, health care professionals, service personnel.... all of those jobs require you to deal with the client, customer, patient one on one. For some people this may be the only time that someone is giving them their full attention, working with them one on one, making them feel like they are the most important person for those few moments. This kind of one on one also happens with doctors, coaches, teachers BUT a lot of people tend to feel more intimidated by those types, who they see as authority figures and so are less likely to open up to them.

As for gay nurses. Comparing when I graduated from college (1976) and now, there seems to be many more openly straight nurses than openly gay ones,then amd now the ratio is about the same. Speaking as both a professional and a patient the only thing that matters is that they provide good patient care.

Piel

Re: Clarification

Just to clarify: When I made the comment, "Though the double standard still seems to be the rule, eg, conservative women all over the US tell their innermost secrets to their openly gay hairdressers, yet if their son comes home and says he's gay, it's a catastrophe," I didn't mean to imply that all male hairdressers are gay or that women only tell their secrets to their hairdressers. I should have qualified the statement. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that the same people who have friendly, even close relationships with gay men outside the home very often cannot accept it if someone in their family is gay.

Piel--ITA with your post. I had a dentist's appointment that was very late once because the dentist told me that the patient before me started spilling his guts about all his problems and he just couldn't get the guy to leave. And the dentist was definitely not gay:smokin:
Rgirl

Re: Clarification

You people lay off rgirl's creative and wonderful prose. You'll scare her into suppressing her literary flights of fancy. She's winkingly bandying around ignorant stereotypes because she assumes you're all in on the joke. Got it, class?

Gays inside and outside of the home

When your child comes home and tells you he is gay, one of the first things your head is likely to say, is, "Oh no, no grandchildren." Not a happy day. While No Grandchildren is not an absolute certainty these days, what with sperm donors, in vitro fertilization, and other options, No Grandchildren is not something that is ever going to worry you about your hairdresser, regardless of sexual orientation. So it's no mystery that some people who are very tolerant of gays in their working lives have problems with their gay or Lesbian children. One thinks of Cher and Chastity in this connection.

dpp

Re: Clarification Rarification

Thanks, Fetal:smokin: I broke the Rgirl Golden Rule of "Never explain," but never again. Of course another Rgirl Rule is "Never say never." Anyway, it's still early in the season and my flights are not as fancy as I hope they'll be by Nationals
Rgirl

Hamster Dance

I think the view that figure skating is gay for boys has a lot to do with America's attitude towards dance. However, not all types of dances are considered gay, so let me make a list (keep in mind this is my assessment of the public's view, not my own). Also, this list is slanted towards the younger generation (music videos are mentioned often, as that's where dance takes refuge in youth cultures), but that's where we'll get our future skaters, so it's relevant:

Figure skating: I think we established that it's plenty gay when done by men.

Raving: It's colorful and Eurotrashy (at least the candy variety), so it's sometimes seen as gay even if it's popular with a sizable, non-gay youth subculture.

Clubbing in general: Club culture has a huge gay influence (just look at the Billboard dance charts), but it's still hip and trendy, unless you play techno music outside a dance floor in which case someone inevitably says, "I hate techno." So I think it's the one dance that's actually pretty gay but also pretty accepted by young people.

Tap-dancing: Gay if it's Riverdance, not gay if it's Bring in Da Noise.

Break dancing: Still hip and hetero.

Ballet: Tres gay. Pink tutu jokes, anyone?

Ballroom dancing: Despite the fact that it's usually done with opposite-sex couples, it's seen as prissy and fruity.

The robot: Occasionally cool in small doses, one sees variations on the robot in music videos all the time.

The grind: You see this in almost every rap video. It's practically heterosex, unless it's done by two girls in which case it's done for the benefit of the hetero men. Possibly the most heterosexual dance form on the list.

Swing dancing: Mild resurgence in late 90's, some still think it's retro-chic. Not gay.

Cheerleading: Gay if boys are involved, despite the martial rhythms and the constant contact between male cheerleaders' hands and the female cheerleaders' "danger zones."

Flamenco: Gay to ignorant Americans, mostly because of the gaudy costumes.

Those Greek dances where two guys dance together: Very gay to Americans, not gay at all to the very homophobic Greeks (they forgot their traditions).

Roller skating: Its competitive forms, with costumes that put ice dancing to shame, do not have any mainstream visibility. Maybe that's why roller skating has been put in quite a few popular music videos over the last two years (Mya's "Free," Matchbox 20's "Disease") for its retro-chic. I find this particularly interesting because roller skating is a very close cousin of figure skating, but is somehow untainted and even enjoys a degree of trendiness.

Do you see any patterns here? I'm totally befuddled myself. Why exactly are some of those dances seen as gay while others get mainstream nods? Write in with your theories. Also, feel free to dispute my list, I have only a surface knowledge of dance.