By and large, I like COP, I think....

What irks me the most is the ladies doing spiral sequences but have to use
their arms to keep the leg up.It shows me that they are unable to do a proper
spiral.Whether there is a good change of edge does not make a good spiral.I think an arm assisted spiral should show up with COP as no more than a level one.

Braves-you might have to set me straight! It is the spin where she sticks one leg up in the air. I freely admit I may be wrong on terminology (hides head).

Doggygirl said:

......I will use Johnny Weir as an example of someone who figured out how to maximize points under COP while putting forward interesting music, choreo, presentation, etc. World's was not his oyster, but having watched his programs in several comps this season, his program is clearly POINT PACKED on the technical side, even without a quad. But he's not over-using any one element, made interesting music choices, and choreo'd / interpreted the heck out of it. (I'd put Buttle in the same category, I just haven't seen as many of his program performances as Weir)

As much as I'm not crazy about Irina's "over-use" of the Bielman position, I can understand (I think) why she does it. Irina does not have the kind of long, leggy body line that a Sasha does. The kinds of spin / spiral positions that are WOW coming from Sasha (just as one example) would not be nearly as "WOW" on Irina just due to nature and how her body is put together. Irina does have the lower back flexibility to get to a Bielman, which many skaters with better natural lines do not. So... she's using her assets to her best advantage. While I'm not crazy about that many Bielmans in a program either, it's what works best for her competetively. I do not blame her for capitalizing on that.

Other competitors like Sasha have proven that there are other ways than the Bielman to get level 3's on spins and spirals. While the Bielman seems the best way for Irina to get there, that's not so for other competitors. And I hope some of the ladies next year take a lesson from some of the men, and figure out how to "point pack" a program on the TES side, and also leverage choreo, interpretation, getting to level 3's with different positions, etc. to maximize overall scores.

I think Irina deserved her win. I don't think she's unbeatable by any stretch. Someone just needs to up the ante and stretch it by matching Irina on the tech side, and out doing her on the PCS categories. I believe that's possible for next year.

Just babbling some more - coming down off of that World's high!!

DG

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Not babbling at all! I love your post. Wish I'd written it. Needless to say ITA with everything you say. I didn't quote all of it only because I wanted to focus on specific comments you made. I too hope the ladies will take a page from what the men did at here at Worlds in terms of combining unique and interesting music, high-level choreography, and technical difficulty.

I'll use an example of a ladies singles skater who did what Johnny Weir did this year during the beginning of the '03/04 season. When Sasha Cohen was working with Tarasova, the black-and-white "Swan Lake" achieved what Johnny Weir did with his LP this season, especially the version she did at Trophee Lalique. However, with that much complex choreography and the level of spins, FW, and spirals, she only had six triples planned and in the three GPS events and GPF she did, only landed a maximum of five triples and had a lot of wonky landings, two foots, turn outs, etc. She received a lot of criticism for the problems with her jumps, even though she achieved a COP high of almost 128 points. Unfortunately, we all know what happened to that program when Sasha left Tarasova and went to Robin Wagner. I also think the criticim Sasha received for her jumps, which ITA needed/still need work, made her want to prove that she could do a seven-triple program, which she did achieve in these Worlds final.

I hope all the ladies follow the lead of Johnny Weir and Jeff Buttle especially. But as I said in another post, I don't think the ladies have been injured enough yet the way the men have to realize they in order to have more than a three season career, they need to maximize their points with something other than seven triples.

BTW, about the pairs skating and problems with the COP, I have to give credit to Doris Pulaski, who first noticed it and sent me some pairs programs to download that demonstrated the dangers of the COP and pairs. This was back in January. So what we saw in these Worlds, Doris Pulaski saw in the pairs performances from the GPS. I think Doris is right, BTW. Studying the programs, I really saw it. So Doris Pulaski is the one with the eagle eye for pairs and the COP, not me.

Rgirl

76olympics said:

Braves-you might have to set me straight! It is the spin where she sticks one leg up in the air. I freely admit I may be wrong on terminology (hides head).

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I've heard it called a Y spin or a Martini spin. (?) Rudi Galindo has a great one.

yeah what mathman said. A donut spin is exactly what it sounds like its like a donut on a stick. Its in the camel position, but the body and leg curl around so that the head and the skate meet. Shizuka does one in her programs.

I hit reply, and now I can't figure out how to quote from the several posts that I want to respond to, arrgh. It's too late in the evening to figure out now so I will type on....


In response to all that has been said about the Bielmann position and Irina's use or overuse of it, I would like to clarify it's value under CoP (this is where I try to remember my teacher telling me, "There are no stupid questions..." and I ask, why are we referring to the ISU judging system as CoP?): First, there are the definitions of simple and difficult spiral variations. A simple variation is one of limited head, arm, or leg movement which does not affect main body core position. A difficult variation involves "twisting the upper body affecting the main body core and balance, bending or pulling the upper body towards the skating leg, moving the free leg from behind to the side of the body while maintaining free leg height, [and] obtaining the Bielmann position".

A Bielmann position carries, by itself, no more weight than a total split position. In order to raise the value of her spiral sequence to level 3, Irina also includes 5 of the 6 criteria for level 3; use of both edges, spirals executed both forward and backward, two difficult variations, 3 or more positions, and an unsupported change of edge within a spiral.

Keep in mind the difference between the base grade for a level 2 and a level 3 spiral sequence is only .3, so a good level 2 sequence could get a grade of 3.6 and a base level 3 sequence would only be a 3.4

I don't think Irina is "racking up points" for her Bielmann position.

note: the ISU example for a level 3 spiral sequence is Sasha doing forward outside total split position, back inside Charlotte, back outside unsupported position with free leg sideways/forward (sorry, don't know what fans call it).

don't think Irina is "racking up points" for her Bielmann position.

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I think people are saying that not because she uses it in her sprial sequence, but becuase she uses it there AND in her spins. She does the biellman position at least 4 times.

BTW...if you want a quote a post use the little talking bubble icon. Its the last one under the color drop down menu