Where is Pairs going?

nicole_l · Mar 26, 2005

Anyone know NNN is skating pairs now. Her partner is one of the twin brother (sorry can't remember the name), they have new program choreographed for them next season.

One of the Pottengers? I think Stephen is the older one, and the younger one (Christopher) is still with Sydney Schmidt. So they would be skating Seniors. Can't wait to hear if this materializes!

eta: duh, they're not twins! But it could be the Pottengers, right? idk.

Eeyora · Mar 26, 2005

Ad of know Shen/Zhao are the only team that wow me at the moment. I have nothing against T/m. I thought their programs were beautiful. But they have little uniqueness to them. To me the top pairs team of my time are G/G. They had it all. Followed by M/D followed by B/S.

Kuchana · Mar 26, 2005

For me personally, I think pairs skating has gone down since M&D's departure. All the focus on the jumps on the technical side of things has further turned me off from that discipline. I haven't been able to feel that connection as I did with them. To me, they epotimized pair skating. I've felt a little bit of that magic with B&S and S&Z but they just don't compare. As a result, I've lost my interest in pairs skating since although I do try to catch S&Z here and there whenever I get the opportunity. I'm hoping to find a pairs team that will wow me as M&D did. Maybe it will be next year.

Kuchana · Mar 26, 2005

mzheng said:
Anyone know NNN is skating pairs now. Her partner is one of the twin brother (sorry can't remember the name), they have new program choreographed for them next season.

So I assume that NNN is no longer injured? If so, that's great to hear. It's sad that she's not going to be competing in ladies anymore. What made her decide to do pairs?

Joesitz (RIP) · Mar 26, 2005

I forgot to mention the German Pair in my initial post. I really think they are the two who are going to save Pairs, at least in the minds of those who don't need all these repetitious lifts. They have a connection together as S&P and, if other teams out technical them, so what, I'll still think they are the best.

Keep your eyes on Savchenko and Szolkowy.

Joe

nicole_l · Mar 26, 2005

Keep your eyes on Savchenko and Szolkowy.

Guess this means in three years they'll be WCs, lol.

Hikaru · Mar 26, 2005

Joesitz said:
I forgot to mention the German Pair in my initial post. I really think they are the two who are going to save Pairs, at least in the minds of those who don't need all these repetitious lifts. They have a connection together as S&P and, if other teams out technical them, so what, I'll still think they are the best.

Keep your eyes on Savchenko and Szolkowy.

Joe

HA I just downloaded their short program, and it was very lovely. If tehy stay together and work on certain details, I agree with you that they could be medal contenders in a couple of years. :agree:

clairecloutier · Mar 26, 2005

Much as I'd like to be optimistic about the current US pairs, it's kind of tough. The senior pairs, at least, haven't consistently performed well since the last Olympics. They've had their chances, but haven't been able to get it done.

Just in terms of sheer talent level, my opinion is that Orscher&Lucash have the technical skills but not the artistic quality, consistency, or chemistry needed for big-time success. Inoue&Baldwin have chemistry and some good tricks, but I think John is too much of a weak link on the jumps and the power side of lifts. I really like Aaron Parchem's skating, and would love to see him and Marcy Hinzmann succeed, but so far things are progressing slowly for them. And, of the other senior teams shown on TV at Nationals this year, none seemed truly noteworthy in any way.

My guess is that U.S. pairs hopes lie with the junior and novice teams or, more likely, teams that have yet to even be formed.

hongligl · Mar 27, 2005

Panther2000 said:
I think so.[/QUOT

So do I.

hongligl · Mar 27, 2005

Hikaru said:
I think I understand where you are comming, and I agree with you that B&S had a beautiful presentation and skating skills (I absolutely loved their Chaplin program, I think it will be my favorite of their programs), however I have to disagree with all you said about Shen and Zhao, and we both will have to "agree to disagree" like they say around here . I cannot explain you the feeling and emotion that Shen and Zhao have and portray through their skating, because it is just something the audience feel when we see them.

For me, Shen and Zhao are THE pair, like another poster said, because not only they have the awesome tricks, but they skate with power, and every element and choreography they perform has a meaning, and that comes from the connection they have. I also love Pang and Tong, their skating is so different from Shen and Zhao and I agree about their musicality, but to me they still don't have they same connection between each other as Shen and Zhao, or at least they don't show it yet...that or maybe I haven't felt it yet (could be).

I missed them terribly at this worlds, however even with the small mistakes they made on the short, I loved the intention of their Clair de Lune. That music suits them very well, and they make it justice. :agree:

Hikaru, well said. ITA.

Vash01 · Mar 27, 2005

hongligl said:
Something positive: Does anybody notice the German pair, the girl? She IMO is now the most graceful girl beside Xue Shen. I like her posture and extension a lot. She just carried herself so beautifully. I would put her in my list to watch.

Aliona Savchenko skated for Ukraine with another partner in the 2002 Olympics. They seemed like a pair that would move up. It is interesting that nobody noticed her then. Only when she moved to Germany people started noticing how good she is. It matters what country you skate for.

Vash01 · Mar 27, 2005

I too am disappointed in pairs skating at the moment (and it is only going to go downhill from here). There is way too much emphasis on acrobatics- lifts that have no relation to the music. I don't have a problem with more difficult sbs jumps as long as the number of those sbs jumps does not increase, and as long as they are done in unison (B&S were the perfect examples of how to do sbs jumps as one). In an effort to increase the COP points the musical interpretation is all but forgotten.

My biggest disappointment this season has been Obertas & Slavnov. I did not have any expectations of Slavnov, but I have been watching Obertas since she was 15. She has a beautiful flow on the ice, reminiscent of Elena Berezhnaya. We don't see much of that any more. All the attention is on flip flopping and catching her in the air, and they don't even do that cleanly. What a waste of talent!

I actually enjoyed watching T&M and Pet-Tik this time. There is some semblance of pairs in their skating. Shen & Zhao started skating like a pair in the 2002 season, but now skaters may not invest that much effort in doing that since the COP only counts the points.

IMO the great Russian pairs tradition ended when B&S retired from the eligible ranks. There have been some non-Russian pairs that were good, but we don't seem them anymore either. I think if any discipline was hurt by the COP, it is the pairs. The rules have changed completely and we may never see great pairs skaters like G&G, B&S, M&D.

Vash

michaelfsfan · Mar 27, 2005

Joesitz said:
Why are we not getting Pairs the way we did in the past? The geneal rule on Pairs is that it should be skated as ONE. Yet we see one half of the Pairs up in the air more than on the ice. There's nothing wrong with a beautiful lift but do we have to be bombarded with them? Aside from being super dangerous, they get to be boring for me after a while.

So she's 4'9" and you are 6'2", and you lift her way above your head and turn and turn on the ice. If this was a highlight of the routine, I would appreciate it, but it is a constant continuous trick, and all are about the same but with some variation. In order to do these vaudeville tricks one has to skate with a lot of speed which means crossovers from one lift to the next.

There are no more transitions. Just movement to the next lift with an occasional side by side jump and spin. The only 'shadow' elements in the whole routine.

Where are the B&S, the S&P, the Protopopovs, all of whom gave us more than just lifts. The only attempt I saw in Moscow was Orscher and Lucash, a weak team who were performing with transitions.

Joe

I think this phenomenon could be due to the fact that current top contenders in pairs skating are trying to maximize their TES by cramming as many technical elements in their programs as they can without breaking any rules, because unlike PCS, every element is given a definite base value, plus there is the incentive of +GOE should it be executed well. In the OBO system, the "presentation" mark was the tiebraker in the LP, so maybe coaches and choreographers for the top teams placed more emphasis in the aesthetic and artistic perspective of the program, whilst making sure that they had the prerequisite technical elements. With the CoP, the importance of the "overal impression" has been significantly reduced, as it is not the placements but the total points whch are used to determine the winners. Whilst I am glad that the CoP gives a more detailed and accurate explanation as to how the programs are marked, I fear that current and future programs will not be "more than the sum of its parts". With the introduction of the CoP, I believe that the pendulum has swung from the artistic/performance to the technical perspective.

Personally, the only pair which interests me nowadays is Shen/Zhao, because they have the best of both worlds; their impressive technical abilility is complemented by their artistry. I loved their Clair de Lune SP for this season, and I could see that even with the mistakes, it was a beautiful program. Strange to think that not so long ago, they were considered the "athletic" pair which needed to improve on their "artistry" and did not come into their own until 2003 Worlds. Since their transcendent "Turandot" LP, I have noticed that they now perform with greater confidence, have established greater affinity with each other, and are a formidable presence on the ice.

michaelfsfan · Mar 27, 2005

Vash01 said:
IMO the great Russian pairs tradition ended when B&S retired from the eligible ranks. There have been some non-Russian pairs that were good, but we don't seem them anymore either. I think if any discipline was hurt by the COP, it is the pairs. The rules have changed completely and we may never see great pairs skaters like G&G, B&S, M&D.

Vash

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you here. Personally, G&G and M&D are the best pairs in figure skating history because they not only had the ability to execute the technical elements which are part of the discipline, but they also developed and refined their own distinctive style throughout their careers. When I think of G&G, I recall their crisp execution of elements, deep edges, great speed and wonderful coverage on the ice with fondness. When I think of M&D, I am reminded of the unique "shapes" and moves they created on the ice, her breahtaking flexibility and his virtuosity and expressiveness (which is very rare for a male pairs skater, as the attention is usually focused on the female partner); I have always believed that Artur would make an excellent ballet dancer.

Vash01 · Mar 27, 2005

michaelfsfan said:
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you here. Personally, G&G and M&D are the best pairs in figure skating history because they not only had the ability to execute the technical elements which are part of the discipline, but they also developed and refined their own distinctive style throughout their careers. When I think of G&G, I recall their crisp execution of elements, deep edges, great speed and wonderful coverage on the ice with fondness. When I think of M&D, I am reminded of the unique "shapes" and moves they created on the ice, her breahtaking flexibility and his virtuosity and expressiveness (which is very rare for a male pairs skater, as the attention is usually focused on the female partner); I have always believed that Artur would make an excellent ballet dancer.

B&S- the pair often maligned by North Americans actually had the best qualities of both pairs you mentioned- G&G and M&D. They had the superb basic skating skills of G&G, more speed, and they made beautiful shapes and pictures on the ice that were unique. Anton Sikharulidze was not just there to present his partner. He had great lines and posture like Sergei's and passion like Artur's. Nearly every program of theirs was a masterpiece. Unfortunately there is a tendency here to ignore this great pair, and not give them the respect they deserve because they were in competition with a Canadian pair.

Vash

michaelfsfan · Mar 27, 2005

Vash01 said:
B&S- the pair often maligned by North Americans actually had the best qualities of both pairs you mentioned- G&G and M&D. They had the superb basic skating skills of G&G, more speed, and they made beautiful shapes and pictures on the ice that were unique. Anton Sikharulidze was not just there to present his partner. He had great lines and posture like Sergei's and passion like Artur's. Nearly every program of theirs was a masterpiece. Unfortunately there is a tendency here to ignore this great pair, and not give them the respect they deserve because they were in competition with a Canadian pair.

Vash

The one aspect of B&S that is often overlooked is their artistic versatility. They could skate to different genres of music and perform with conviction and panache, ie they were equally comfortable with the comic genius of their Chaplin program, or the classical purity of Lady Caliph and Meditation. I remember being most impressed with their Swan Lake SP, and IIRC it was used in one of the fluff pieces either at Worlds or Olympics to demonstrate how the elements of a short program should be executed.

KwanFan1212 · Mar 28, 2005

Vash: In the last three years that I've been attending SOI, I've noticed that Elena & Anton are extremely well received by the audiences and that's been the same no matter what city (or country as I have seen the show in Canada as well) that I've seen the show in too. You made it sound like people are being rude to them or not appreciateing them at all and I don't think that's the case anymore. I think most people have moved on from SLC now and they are appreciating great pairs skating, no matter which pair its coming from, and I am extremely happy about that. I've always liked E&A (they do remind me a lot of G&G who I adored and are my fave ever pair) and even though my bias for J&D showed during and after the Olys, I have personally enjoyed seeing Elena & Anton perform with SOI every year. They are definitely blossoming as professionals. I just wanted to give you some encouragement that they are being quite well received by audiences in the US and Canada. :agree:

And I still maintain that our top US pairs just need to learn how to compete better. They can do all the tricks and some of them are developing a nice style too. They would do much better internationally if they could skate clean programs more often, LOL

hockeyfan228 · Mar 28, 2005

Hikaru said:
HA I just downloaded their short program, and it was very lovely. If tehy stay together and work on certain details, I agree with you that they could be medal contenders in a couple of years. :agree:

If you can download their LP, Casablanca do -- it was, in my opinion, the most beautiful program of all of the pairs LPs this year. He's also as good as she is, with wonderful posture and line. They have jelled remarkably given how little international experience they have together.

As a junior pairs skater, Savchenko and her partner were higher ranked than Obertas (and, I believe, Palamarchuk). I thought S/S should have been higher than O/S in Moscow, although with the new LP they skated, I saw more "pairness" in O/S than in the program they used earlier in the year and than in their SP. The Moskvina magic is starting to take.

Where is Pairs going?

nicole_l

Eeyora

Kuchana

Kuchana

Joesitz (RIP)

nicole_l

Hikaru

clairecloutier

hongligl

hongligl

Vash01

Vash01

michaelfsfan

michaelfsfan

Vash01

michaelfsfan

KwanFan1212

Joey Votto Fangirl

hockeyfan228

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